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 An Actual Englishman wrote:
By the way it looks like the rating has changed as its now a yellow tier. The dakkajet and KBB are 2 tiers higher.

I changed it because all of your and CthuluIsSpy's arguments basically boiled down to the snazzwagon being a versatile fast vehicle with a gun that's not great but better than average (it's more efficent than anything with big shootas or dakka guns). That's a lot more than can be said for other stuff in the red category like lobbas, nob bikers or burnas.

I'm still very convinced that the snazzwagon should never be suggested as a good option to players looking for units to add to their army.

There is no niche for the buggy, any function it can fulfill can be fulfilled better by other units. At 24" the dakkajet will always be the better option, any counter-argument for the dakkajet counts twice over for the snazzwagon. At 6" it will be outperformed by the KBB.

Now let's stop finding weird arguments for a buggy that is clearly inferior to other options and accept that it's model that you would only take for non-competitive reasons. To quote the first post:

This is supposed to be about competitive gaming. I know there are a lot of players you just want to toss some dice, watch their beautiful converted models, re-enact battles from the fluff and don't really care about who wins the game. You are all awesome people, but sorry, this thread isn't for you :(

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I really don't think the KBB and BDSW have the same job. I am not firing a 6 shot Str 7-2 AP 2D weapon at a Guardsmen and other chaff. When did that become tactically sensible? Or do we consider Primaris chaff? Terminators are chaff? I'm firing the Rivet Cannon at Sentinels, Vypers and other light vehicles.

When the KBB shoots all its guns at a chaff unit it will kill 50% more models than the snazzwagon. That's all that counts.
The gun being great at shooting something else is just another argument against the snazzwagon, not for it.

That said, why shouldn't a gun wounding guardsmen on 2+ and ignoring their armor be used to remove guardsmen? You are clearing them to get to knights or tanks hiding behind them, and the rivet gun isn't great for shooting those.

As I said earlier, let's see the maths at the different ranges I stated. There will be times you can't get within 8" of a screen, 24" is much more manageable.

How about YOU do the math for once. The last three times you called for math and I did it, you turned around and call it "flawed", "irrelevant" and "incorrect".
The burden of proof to show that the snazzwagon is actually anything else but an intentional handicap on yourself is on you.

Can't (ofc I can actually because the internet...) believe the BDSW argument is still raging on. Its really not very good, at anything, compared to other options.

You guys should have let it go as soon as Jidmah posted a few pages ago and raised it to yellow. He gets all the Internet points for being a good OP and showing some form of compromise and diplomacy.

 Jidmah wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
By the way it looks like the rating has changed as its now a yellow tier. The dakkajet and KBB are 2 tiers higher.

I changed it because all of your and CthuluIsSpy's arguments basically boiled down to the snazzwagon being a versatile fast vehicle with a gun that's not great but better than average (it's more efficent than anything with big shootas or dakka guns). That's a lot more than can be said for other stuff in the red category like lobbas, nob bikers or burnas.

I'm still very convinced that the snazzwagon should never be suggested as a good option to players looking for units to add to their army.

There is no niche for the buggy, any function it can fulfill can be fulfilled better by other units. At 24" the dakkajet will always be the better option, any counter-argument for the dakkajet counts twice over for the snazzwagon. At 6" it will be outperformed by the KBB.

Now let's stop finding weird arguments for a buggy that is clearly inferior to other options and accept that it's model that you would only take for non-competitive reasons. To quote the first post:

This is supposed to be about competitive gaming. I know there are a lot of players you just want to toss some dice, watch their beautiful converted models, re-enact battles from the fluff and don't really care about who wins the game. You are all awesome people, but sorry, this thread isn't for you :(

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I really don't think the KBB and BDSW have the same job. I am not firing a 6 shot Str 7-2 AP 2D weapon at a Guardsmen and other chaff. When did that become tactically sensible? Or do we consider Primaris chaff? Terminators are chaff? I'm firing the Rivet Cannon at Sentinels, Vypers and other light vehicles.

When the KBB shoots all its guns at a chaff unit it will kill 50% more models than the snazzwagon. That's all that counts.
The gun being great at shooting something else is just another argument against the snazzwagon, not for it.

As I said earlier, let's see the maths at the different ranges I stated. There will be times you can't get within 8" of a screen, 24" is much more manageable.

How about YOU do the math for once. The last three times you called for math and I did it, you turned around and call it "flawed", "irrelevant" and "incorrect".
The burden of proof to show that the snazzwagon is actually anything else but an intentional handicap on yourself is on you.

1. My arguments for it aren't weird. They're perfectly logical in game scenarios.
2. My disagreement with your opinion does not make me a non-competitive gamer.
3. I never asked you to do any mathS, you decided that all on your own and it was very specific.
4. I don't need to do the mathS to know that outside of 8" range the BDSW outperforms the KBB at killing most things up to 25".
5. As far as I'm concerned ive presented many arguments that the snazzwagon is anything but an intentional handicap but you've completely ignored them, deciding to only respond to a minuscule part of my posts on the subject.

You've taken it out of the red category which is what I asked.

I disagree the Dakkajet should be in the category you've placed it. In my experience it's massive size and degrading profile means that it has exactly one turn of performing as your mathS shows, at maximum, before it starts to perform much worse. It has limited movement and is not a Speed Freek so is exempt from certain stratagems. It cannot charge targets which again means it can't benefit from certain stratagems. The dogfight stratagem is virtually useless for it because it only affects other units with the fly keyword, most of which have Toughness greater than 6

E - right lets use your maths to explain my point, since there are some of you that seem to be struggling to grasp what I think is pretty basic stuff;
Start of the game our armies are at LEAST 24" away from each other for most deployment options.
KBB moves 12".
It's now 12" away from this chaff it wants to kill so badly (assuming the chaff and KBB are both right on the deployment line).
It advances on average 3.5".
It's now 8.5" away from this chaff it wants to kill so badly (assuming the chaff and KBB are both right on the deployment line).
8.5" if my maths is right on this is greater than 8"?
So those burna exhausts do nothing because they are out of range.

The snazzwagon, on the other hand, doesn't even need to move to hit its chaff targets with most weapons.

Now I accept that if the KBB is Evil Suns this scenario becomes a lot more favourable to the KBB (again, assuming both chaff and KBB are deployed as far forward as possible). If the units are 24" apart there is in fact no situation in which the KBB can't burninate the chaff if it advances and is Evil Suns, even if a 1 is rolled to advance. But is a unit that must rely on a specific klan trait to have maximum effectiveness considered that much better than our humble Snazzwagon?

In a official local store, playing my orks against a worker of the shop, he said I cannot charge and pile in tanks I didn't declare charge, I only could fight with base-to-base orks and not 1 inch within my own ork, something like WTF.

As he's a worker of the company, I started saying ok, ok, yea, ok I cannot do that, ok... 30 minuts later I was SO MAD, it's just a game but I'm not stupid either, I checked 2 times the rules, talked with other workers of the shop and finally he just shut up, not my fault he don't know the rules working in an official store.

After this story, now I will talk about orkz.

I'm running a 65 CP campaing and now I want to build a 1500 points army, that's what I've got ATM.



10 tankbustas and 2 squiggs go Battlewagon.
10 nobz, big mekk and painboy go trukk.
30 boyz deepstrike, 3 deffkoptas deepstrike.
Turn 1 I can Da Jump 30 boyz or just defend behind my gretchlins.

With 9 CP, I can save some stratagems for boyz or, If I see the oportunity, disembark tankbustas and oneshot some big guyz, what do you thinks my'orkz?

For be an Actual Englishman, you showing a relevant lack of sportmanship. Just agree to disagree, play. Whatever suits you and let Jidmah be, so he can start to rate stratagems and so on

I am not ignoring your arguments, I have provided plenty of counter-arguments and proof, while you have not.
I refuse to discuss this any further with you, since none of your arguments are based on reason, but only on logical fallacies and ad hominem attacks.
I will put you on my ignore list an will no longer consider your input for the OP unless you change your ways of arguing.

One of the drawbacks of the bonebreaka is the 12 model capacity. It really ruled out putting MANZ in them for me since I didn't want to risk rolling some 1's. But thinking about it, putting 5 MANZ + 1 minimek & grot oiler is possible.

Rolling a single 1 if it blows up is no big deal, even two 1's is sort of fine. I could also put rezmekkas redder armour on the mek. Do people think it's too juicy of a target? I'm too busy to actually play games for a few weeks..

5 MANZ w/ saws + non-index minimek + grot oiler + bonebreaka equals 407 points. That vehicle has a somewhat reliable T1 charge. For the sake of argument I'd probably have another bonebreaka filled with just 10 boyz, a weirdboy and a waaagh banner nob next to it.

I think 5 MANZ is all you need in a squad, or even an army.
Its not as if you can max out a squad, due to how you only get 3 in a box.

You get a lot more options with 5 MANZ. You can put them in a trukk, a battlewagon with killkannon, a battlewagon without killkannon, a bonebreaka or a gunwagon or tellyporta
If you go more than 6, you can only put them in a battlewagon without KK or a tellyporta. And that's a heavy investment.

On the 8.5" topic: if only there was a Kultur that would allow that KBB to move and additional 2" and advance an additional inch. That would solve that whole conundrum.

Yeah, I actually think 5 MANZ is the sweet spot but I roll with saws only so even just 5 is 215 points. Going over 5 is limiting in trasnport as you stated but the issue I had with even just 5 was that I had forgotten that the minimek can take a grot oiler so I put them in a normal battlewagon with grots.

Having that grot oiler means that if the vehicle explodes you roll seven dice, one or even two 1's is pretty much okay. Meaning I'm actually pretty comfortable putting 5 MANZ in a bonebreaka now. Considering GW clarified that MANZ can't benefit from loot it I'm not liking putting them in a trukk anymore.

To be fair jidmah I’m with you. The last couple days I’ve been sitting here reading these comments going wtf are people arguing about the rating of the 2-3 ork buggies that absolutely suck.
The scrapjet is the only semi competitive option, the dragsta is ok but unlikely to ever be seen in a real competitive list and the kbb isn’t complete garbage... the other two are hot trash.

If you are arguing about the other 2 buggies it’s becusse you are trying to justify playing the 2 models you just bought and somehow feel you need other players approval that you didn’t waste money on complete crap.

I haven't bought any buggies yet.
Its almost as if some people like to discuss tactics, balance and theorize, and follow the idea that if its in the book, there has to be a use for it.

I'll be buying the new buggies eventually because they are gorgeous models. In terms of table top However they are definitely lacking across the board IMO for their cost. They should definitely cost less than battlewagons, and closer to trucks in price.

I'm sure this has been covered but I just missed in on all the talk about the buggies. I, for some reason, just realized that the wartrike I'm running can be healed by my kff big Mek on bike! So a super cybork wartrike with the kff Mek nearby could be really survivable! too bad the Mek can't take an oiler when he is on a bike. I like buffing the trike with fist of gorl and the kbb trait. For a reliable first turn charger that can hit relatively hard.

You are technically correct (the best kind of correct), but it's definitely not RAI. I imagine if it'll be Errata'd, if GW finds out about it. (RIP 1+ MANz)

i dont see why it wouldnt be intended.
At the same time, he cant be healed by a painboy. Same healing mechanic, different tags.

That would be why. Supa Cybork, from the description, appears to be intended to negate Wounds at the cost of no healing. And, as you said, Mekaniak and Doks Tools are the same mechanic, with different tags. They both "repair" models.

Of course, I could be wrong. Maybe GW just hates Painboyz more than Meks.

I had no intention of using both. A pain out can't heal a vehicle so I didn't even think of that.

So if the big FAQ 2 says that you can no longer use abilities that allow you to come in from ambush turn 1 then why did GW not change the wording of the ork codex before it was released in nov? I really want my kommandos to come in before turn 2 lol.

I think that's been a Beta Rule for a hot minute now. If I had to guess, they didn't change the wording in the Codex because of how many units have similar abilities. Probably better just to throw out a universal rule on it.

That said, if you're playing casual and your opponent don't mind, you go ahead and bring them Kommandos in on T1.

Because the Big FAQ is a beta rule. They haven't changed "deep strike" rules, they changed rules that required you to deploy on turn 1. Rules that had the option previously are unchanged and now can only be used on turn 2 and 3.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Would you not put the Killa Klaw on the Biker Boss? The Footslogger most likely won't make it to combat. Combining Brutal but Kunnin on a Killa Klaw Warboss makes him practically delete anything he touches.

Because the fight twice strategem explicitly says only on infantry.

Ergo the footboss can swing twice, causing 4 damage per PK swing with BBK. And 2 damage per swing with the attack squig, with 2x2 extra attacks.

 Jidmah wrote:
I am not ignoring your arguments, I have provided plenty of counter-arguments and proof, while you have not.
I refuse to discuss this any further with you, since none of your arguments are based on reason, but only on logical fallacies and ad hominem attacks.
I will put you on my ignore list an will no longer consider your input for the OP unless you change your ways of arguing.

Lol this has to be one of the most pathetic posts I've read on this forum.

Ad hominem attacks? Where?

I literally edit a post to show why I think something re a tactical discussion and because you have no counter you decide 'not to discuss this anymore'.

Its sad really, the way you think you're the little master of this thread. Just like I said earlier. No point trying to discuss tactics with someone who thinks he's dictator of a thread and only his opinion is worth anything. Have fun in here Jidmah, I'll post in another, actual tactics thread.

 flandarz wrote:
On the 8.5" topic: if only there was a Kultur that would allow that KBB to move and additional 2" and advance an additional inch. That would solve that whole conundrum.

You might want to re-read my post regarding this....

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I haven't bought any buggies yet.
Its almost as if some people like to discuss tactics, balance and theorize, and follow the idea that if its in the book, there has to be a use for it.

Be careful, you might end up on Jidmah's ban list! Tactics, balance and actual game theory isn't to be discussed here

I have found that my Shokkjump Dragstas outperform my Megatrakk Scrapjets. I run 3 SJDs and 2 MTSJs. The Dragstas every game have plinked off more wounds to vehicles and monsters than my Scrapjets have ever done.

Time and time again the 2 shots with 3+ reroll 1 dice to hit and reroll 1 dice wound has been more consistent and reliable than the Scrapjets Rokkit kannon and wing missile.

I have experienced often that my Dragstas kill high toughness units by themselves where my Scrapjets have struggled to even put damage on the target.

I have delegated my Scrapjets to target heavier infantry and light vehicles and chuck off the wing missile at a vehicle which rarely produces damage.

Used in conjunction with my Moar Dakka Showin' Off Tankbustas, I've routinely killed 3 vehicles on my turn 1.

Yesterday I fought against alaitoc craftworlders with 2 hemlocks and 3 wave serpents and managed to pull off a 11-3 victory.

My next game will be vs kraken and kronos Tyranids which will probably be my biggest threat for my army

Apparently I missed the edit. My fault for loading a page in the morning and not posting til I get to work.

Right now, Evil Sunz is the most common Kulture popping up in Ork Lists. Which makes sense, considering it shores up the Orkz' primary weakness: getting to CC before being shot to death. If we're basing our taktiks on how useful a unit is, we can't ignore which Kulturz are also the most useful.

When it comes to the Snazzwagon, I'd personally prefer to get that bad boy into the 6" range. The Burna Grenades are really good chaff elimination. 2d6 and ignores cover is solid, even at 4S and no AP. Both the Wagon and the KBB can fire their Nades even while shooting their other weapons, so the optimal range for both is 6". And within this range, even with the Burna Nades, the KBB has more Dakka for the price.

I, for some reason, just realized that the wartrike I'm running can be healed by my kff big Mek on bike! So a super cybork wartrike with the kff Mek nearby could be really survivable!

Sounds good on paper, but I've never had a warboss survive contact with the enemy. The warboss either is barely injured (if at all) or is dead. Very little in-between. Of course I throw him into the mix immediately, as he will kill WAY more then his points in units and characters, but will always die doing so.

deffrekka,
That's really interesting. I was actually considering dropping the dragsta and taking multiple megatrakks instead. I felt they'd do good at screen clearing with all their twin big shoota shots at 4+ now, then have the rokkits and MW + drill for dealing with vehicles.

Is it the extra AP that lets the shokk jump do its work?

 TedNugent wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Would you not put the Killa Klaw on the Biker Boss? The Footslogger most likely won't make it to combat. Combining Brutal but Kunnin on a Killa Klaw Warboss makes him practically delete anything he touches.

Because the fight twice strategem explicitly says only on infantry.

Ergo the footboss can swing twice, causing 4 damage per PK swing with BBK. And 2 damage per swing with the attack squig, with 2x2 extra attacks.

Two times Zero is still zero. A Footslogging Warboss won't ever make it into combat.

 flandarz wrote:
Apparently I missed the edit. My fault for loading a page in the morning and not posting til I get to work.

Right now, Evil Sunz is the most common Kulture popping up in Ork Lists. Which makes sense, considering it shores up the Orkz' primary weakness: getting to CC before being shot to death. If we're basing our taktiks on how useful a unit is, we can't ignore which Kulturz are also the most useful.

When it comes to the Snazzwagon, I'd personally prefer to get that bad boy into the 6" range. The Burna Grenades are really good chaff elimination. 2d6 and ignores cover is solid, even at 4S and no AP. Both the Wagon and the KBB can fire their Nades even while shooting their other weapons, so the optimal range for both is 6". And within this range, even with the Burna Nades, the KBB has more Dakka for the price.

It was always there. The edit was the entire bit after the 'E -'. The point about the Evil Sunz effect on KBB has been up since I posted the 8.5" example.

I play Evil Sunz exclusively so I know the effect it has. In my experience the opposition will deploy as far back as reasonably possible. The 24" gap is often more like 28, 30.

I know the rules for both buggies and understand that because they can fire all their weapons at the same time it makes sense to get them within grenade range/burna range.

My point is that this isn't always feasible. Even with Evil Sunz. Heaven forbid I consider that a unit might not be firing in optimal range from turn 1! If you happen to play another kulture I think a strong argument can be made for the Snazzwagon over the KBB as its effectiveness doesn't hinge on getting within 8" range and its more survivable (so more likely to be firing for longer over the course of a game).

But what do I know? Clearly these are the ravings of a madman desperate to justify a purchase through gaining the agreement of random people on the internet /s

Iteration on a 1k points list I made a while back:

Evil Sunz Batallion

HQ

1x Trikeboss (Warlord, Da Supa-Cybork relic, probably Might makes Right or Brutal but Kunnin' trait)

1x Warp'ead (Da Jump, Warpath)

Troops

10x Boyz
- 1x Nob with PK

23x Boyz
- 1x Nob with PK

10x Gretchin

Fast Attack

1x Kustom Boosta-Blasta

1x Boomdakka Snazzwagon

3x Megatrakk Skrapjet

Should be 999 points.

Wanted an alternative for my Nob Bikers and this list is nice and fluffy as well because with all the buggies it's a right an' proppa Speedwaaagh!. Alternative would be to swap two Skrapjets for a Bonebreaka and more Boyz but I like the shooting on the Jets a lot as well because there's a lot of ruins to hide infantry in in my local meta. Which is also the reason I took a Snazzwagon because those should do quite decently against GEQ and MEQ in cover.

As should be obvious, the battle is simple: send everything forward and start shootin' and krumpin' gitz. Krumping first, objectives second (unless those objectives involve krumping something of course).

Thoughts?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Would you not put the Killa Klaw on the Biker Boss? The Footslogger most likely won't make it to combat. Combining Brutal but Kunnin on a Killa Klaw Warboss makes him practically delete anything he touches.

Because the fight twice strategem explicitly says only on infantry.

Ergo the footboss can swing twice, causing 4 damage per PK swing with BBK. And 2 damage per swing with the attack squig, with 2x2 extra attacks.

Two times Zero is still zero. A Footslogging Warboss won't ever make it into combat.

If only there was some kind of transport that he could use to get within combat range.

Ah! No, you're right, infantry never get into close combat ever.

That"s why no one uses boys and only uses warbikes for example, and why no one ever uses meganobs or Killa kans.

If only there was some kind of tellyporta strategem or a ramming speed strat that could just - make - combat easier to get into! There's gotta be a better way!

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Would you not put the Killa Klaw on the Biker Boss? The Footslogger most likely won't make it to combat. Combining Brutal but Kunnin on a Killa Klaw Warboss makes him practically delete anything he touches.

Because the fight twice strategem explicitly says only on infantry.

Ergo the footboss can swing twice, causing 4 damage per PK swing with BBK. And 2 damage per swing with the attack squig, with 2x2 extra attacks.

Two times Zero is still zero. A Footslogging Warboss won't ever make it into combat.

If you use BWs it definitely can. I run 2 footslogging warbosses both with a relic melee weapon. 3 BWs, two trukks of bustas and a trukk with nobz. One of them at least usually gets the chance to swing in combat thanks to target saturation.