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Made in us
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Across the Rubicon

I cut a few things on my wish list such as a Harlequin Kill Team, a few more grots because gretchin are cool and a Riptide I just wanted to paint up. Things I thought would be kinda neat to have but wouldn't see a lot/any game time. But the things left on the list (mostly Kill Team Elites units) I do still want to pick up will probably still make GW more money overall with the price increase. So I guess well played GW.

I am mostly relieved that I completely most of the Kill Teams I wanted before in the price increase. And technically my new Primaris army was never affected and should be pretty much done after the Primaris Lieutenant Daily video which fits the SpecOps feel of my army. Like others have said, I got a big pile of stuff to paint anyways, so suspending my purchases only allows me to not be incredibly back logged. I still have like 4-5 Kill Teams I don't have painted to high enough quality that I am willing to field them.

Kill Team is still my go to miniatures game. I don't know if the prices are really going to affect brand new players. On the one had, kill teams can still be bought for $60 US or less. At the same time, Elites has put some pressure on players getting more than 1 or 2 boxes of models depending on the faction. I think some players (mostly teenagers/under drinking age) could barely afford the modest buy-in before which reality was a little out of their budget, but they really like 40k lore and Kill Team would be the only way to play a 40k tabletop game.

   
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Mississippi

All I can say is that not only have I made my last GW purchase, but others who ask me about GW product will be told to stay away because of expense and shoddy rule design.

It never ends well 
   
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 Stormonu wrote:
All I can say is that not only have I made my last GW purchase, but others who ask me about GW product will be told to stay away because of expense and shoddy rule design.

Did the shoddy design not bother you before this price rise?
I'm just curious, cause it'd seem to me like a much bigger gripe than price.
   
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Mississippi

Cronch wrote:
 Stormonu wrote:
All I can say is that not only have I made my last GW purchase, but others who ask me about GW product will be told to stay away because of expense and shoddy rule design.

Did the shoddy design not bother you before this price rise?
I'm just curious, cause it'd seem to me like a much bigger gripe than price.


It had, I had been working on my own version for some time, and I’ve been playing far more D&D and Destiny 2 than 40K. Overall, I’d been around to collect the models, the game (Because of the poor design) has only ever been something I do every so often to remind myself why I don’t play regularly.

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 Stormonu wrote:
Cronch wrote:
 Stormonu wrote:
All I can say is that not only have I made my last GW purchase, but others who ask me about GW product will be told to stay away because of expense and shoddy rule design.

Did the shoddy design not bother you before this price rise?
I'm just curious, cause it'd seem to me like a much bigger gripe than price.


It had, I had been working on my own version for some time, and I’ve been playing far more D&D and Destiny 2 than 40K. Overall, I’d been around to collect the models, the game (Because of the poor design) has only ever been something I do every so often to remind myself why I don’t play regularly.


House rules and a small group community help if propperly maintained.

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Jidmah wrote:Death Guard elite units are single plague marines with fancy gear.


The champion and the icon bearer, yes, but units like the biologus putrifier, tallyman, and plague surgeon all have very unique abilities.
   
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 Stormonu wrote:
Cronch wrote:
 Stormonu wrote:
All I can say is that not only have I made my last GW purchase, but others who ask me about GW product will be told to stay away because of expense and shoddy rule design.

Did the shoddy design not bother you before this price rise?
I'm just curious, cause it'd seem to me like a much bigger gripe than price.


It had, I had been working on my own version for some time, and I’ve been playing far more D&D and Destiny 2 than 40K. Overall, I’d been around to collect the models, the game (Because of the poor design) has only ever been something I do every so often to remind myself why I don’t play regularly.


Same here honestly.

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 Azreal13 wrote:
Cronch wrote:

They mishandled things for years and were still posting a profit. Their demand seems to be quite ineleastic.

They booted the long-time CEO from the position because of this attitude, because it was hurting the company.


No they didn't.

Kirby retired (he was in his 60s, so no real suspicion it was PR spin,) stayed on in a senior non-executive capacity and is still, afaik, a major private shareholder.

While there are certainly things that have happened under Rountree that have been positive, I don't think you can overlook the fact that he was a senior figure under Kirby, and also that the departure of Alan Merret was massively impactful as well.


GW almost went bankrupt a couple times mate under kirby. It isn't magical company immune to market shifts cause we nerds will pay whatever they demand and ask for more.
   
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Nope, they almost went bankrupt and Kirby led the management buyout that saved them.

Then they had another wobble post LOTR, which could perhaps be laid more at his feet, and then nothing else. The great financial crisis people seem to remember didn't even see them make a loss.

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Armpit of NY

stratigo wrote:


GW almost went bankrupt a couple times mate under kirby. It isn't magical company immune to market shifts cause we nerds will pay whatever they demand and ask for more.


Incorrect, and easily disproved by financial data readily available. GW was, and has been continuously profitable, and paying dividends. 2014 was the worst year since 2010, returning numbers similar the 2000s. The Kirby years were profitable - the only successful accusation one can make as an investor is that they could, and should have been MORE profitable. The idea that they were going under or losing money during the Kirby years is just wishful thinking.
   
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At this point most of my models are in storage since I only play Kill Team. However, I am confident that GW will find a way to destroy KT with the next expansion. Introducing small 'vehicle' models like jet bikes and tomb blades would be a great start, or maybe KT soup? I did not check the prices of bikes, did they go up?

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 Tokhuah wrote:
At this point most of my models are in storage since I only play Kill Team. However, I am confident that GW will find a way to destroy KT with the next expansion. Introducing small 'vehicle' models like jet bikes and tomb blades would be a great start, or maybe KT soup? I did not check the prices of bikes, did they go up?

Funnily enough wolfwolfwolf riders were in the very first KT promo materials so cavalry might actually not be that far off...
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






 totalfailure wrote:
stratigo wrote:


GW almost went bankrupt a couple times mate under kirby. It isn't magical company immune to market shifts cause we nerds will pay whatever they demand and ask for more.


Incorrect, and easily disproved by financial data readily available. GW was, and has been continuously profitable, and paying dividends. 2014 was the worst year since 2010, returning numbers similar the 2000s. The Kirby years were profitable - the only successful accusation one can make as an investor is that they could, and should have been MORE profitable. The idea that they were going under or losing money during the Kirby years is just wishful thinking.


Hell yeah they paid dividends even if they had to take out bank loans to do it oh and remind me who the biggest personal share holders were again? Ahhh the board who decide if dividends should be paid. So there was never any situation short of bankruptcy that was going to stop those divided payouts.

And there were a number of years where they only turned a profit due to there licensed products like total war and some creative write offs

Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




The idea that they were going under or losing money during the Kirby years is just wishful thinking.

If you make less money than previous years, surely it does mean you lost money in comparison? Your profits might have still been over your expenses, but you still earned less than previously.
   
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Fixture of Dakka




UK

Cronch wrote:
The idea that they were going under or losing money during the Kirby years is just wishful thinking.

If you make less money than previous years, surely it does mean you lost money in comparison?



No, but many economists would like companies to think so. Continual profit rising every single year is basically unsustainable for any company to achieve within a single product line. Eventually you hit market saturation. Plus some years are going to be bigger than others for example I'd wager the 2018 sales for 40K are going to be hard to beat for a long while because that year reflected a huge number of old fans returning to the fold en-mass coupled to massive releases of codex (each one prompting fresh army sales). Attempting to maintain increasing profits every single year works ok for a while, but eventually markets saturate and then there is a steady decline in sales every year. The markets are still highly profitable, just not as much as they once were before because you've started to level out market growth. GW is working hard to grow their market right now so chances are we will see a lot of years with growing sales and growing profits before it levels out again.

Plus so long as you are in profit the company is in a good position, its when you've got shareholders wanting increasing returns on investment and managesr hunting for those increasing profits that companies start to undo their own good work and can scupper their long term plans because they wind up too focused on the short term annual profits.

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Devon, UK


And there were a number of years where they only turned a profit due to there licensed products like total war and some creative write offs


So.. what? You're saying they made the wrong sort of profit?

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

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 totalfailure wrote:
stratigo wrote:


GW almost went bankrupt a couple times mate under kirby. It isn't magical company immune to market shifts cause we nerds will pay whatever they demand and ask for more.


Incorrect, and easily disproved by financial data readily available. GW was, and has been continuously profitable, and paying dividends. 2014 was the worst year since 2010, returning numbers similar the 2000s. The Kirby years were profitable - the only successful accusation one can make as an investor is that they could, and should have been MORE profitable. The idea that they were going under or losing money during the Kirby years is just wishful thinking.


Profits cratered under later kirby in a drastic downwards trend. That's not... signs of a healthy company.
   
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UK

 Azreal13 wrote:

And there were a number of years where they only turned a profit due to there licensed products like total war and some creative write offs


So.. what? You're saying they made the wrong sort of profit?


In fairness that can be the wrong sort of profit. If your core product isn't actually making a profitable return on investment then that does show a big issue with the company, especially when the core product is supposed to be profitable rather than a franchise that you use to then generate income from licences.

Now licensed products making "more" profit in a year is perfectly fine, esp since for GW there's basically no cost so any return is basically pure profit for them; however if your core business can't cover its costs then that's a worrying sign. Why bother investing in more models if they are losing you money! Though thankfully GW didn't go down that path of thinking

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 Overread wrote:
Cronch wrote:
The idea that they were going under or losing money during the Kirby years is just wishful thinking.

If you make less money than previous years, surely it does mean you lost money in comparison?



No, but many economists would like companies to think so. Continual profit rising every single year is basically unsustainable for any company to achieve within a single product line. Eventually you hit market saturation. Plus some years are going to be bigger than others for example I'd wager the 2018 sales for 40K are going to be hard to beat for a long while because that year reflected a huge number of old fans returning to the fold en-mass coupled to massive releases of codex (each one prompting fresh army sales). Attempting to maintain increasing profits every single year works ok for a while, but eventually markets saturate and then there is a steady decline in sales every year. The markets are still highly profitable, just not as much as they once were before because you've started to level out market growth. GW is working hard to grow their market right now so chances are we will see a lot of years with growing sales and growing profits before it levels out again.

Plus so long as you are in profit the company is in a good position, its when you've got shareholders wanting increasing returns on investment and managesr hunting for those increasing profits that companies start to undo their own good work and can scupper their long term plans because they wind up too focused on the short term annual profits.


The later kirby years showed a downwards trend though, not an upwards one, which is bad for companies. In part because investors get skittish, in part because the entire system is reliant on continuous growth, which is why bubble chasing is the thing.
   
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UK

True a downward trend isn't good, what's ideal is a general level of healthy stability with some years better than others. I think markets like GW can have downward trends for a while at times because you get a big generation push come through who all grow armies and then settle down at around the same time. The trick is being able to then upswing with recruiting a new generation which is basically what GW is pushing hard for.


It doesn't help that hands on toys have suffered over the years as the market has become far more bloated with competition and computer games making serious bids for peoples attention and money

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Kirasu wrote:It is getting fairly difficult to convince new people to try 40k when there are other games out there with relatively free rules, better testing and their vision tends to be “make a good game for gamers” rather than a good game for their share price.

Right now the matched play rules have 29 pages of FAQ and something like 27 pages of actual rules. There are a large amount of rules either spread out between books like chapter approved or you cant even download or buy anymore (assassin book for example), and prices for models that are a decade old keep going up (when real adjusted for inflation income has actually gone down over decades for the average american). The army I play at events is getting close to 1000$ without factoring in time or money to paint or assemble.


40k does very poorly against the field when it comes to competition. The theoretical alternatives simply crush it. the problem has always been finding an actual, concrete alternative. Warmachine had it's moments, but the models never really competed, while the prices were no lower. X-wing is just a bad a mess, rules wise, while also lacking the hobby element. Malifaux has very distinct aesthetic, isn't exactly cheap, and has spotty coverage. 40k, for all of it's many flaws, has a ton going for it.


gorgon wrote: The reaction here could be straight out of rec.games.miniatures.warhammer during the mid-90s. Hell, I remember being surprised by an $8 price tag for a blister of Aspect Warriors around 1990. It was probably twice what I would have paid from any other manufacturer at the time. Their prices have always been high, but people always like to think that their experiences are unique and new.


Maybe this is the time that the sky is truly falling, but it hasn't the last couple of dozen times prices went up.

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Devon, UK

 Overread wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:

And there were a number of years where they only turned a profit due to there licensed products like total war and some creative write offs


So.. what? You're saying they made the wrong sort of profit?


In fairness that can be the wrong sort of profit. If your core product isn't actually making a profitable return on investment then that does show a big issue with the company, especially when the core product is supposed to be profitable rather than a franchise that you use to then generate income from licences.

Now licensed products making "more" profit in a year is perfectly fine, esp since for GW there's basically no cost so any return is basically pure profit for them; however if your core business can't cover its costs then that's a worrying sign. Why bother investing in more models if they are losing you money! Though thankfully GW didn't go down that path of thinking


Your core business is what allows you to make money, it doesn't in and of itself have to be profitable. Neither does it have to remain the same over time.

Do you think a recording artist cares that they make more from merchandise than their music? Look at the history of Peugeot, they've manufactured many things before they started to make cars.

Besides, the discussion didn't start about how healthy GW were under Kirby, it was that they almost went bankrupt on multiple occasions, which is objectively and demonstrably false.


We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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The fact for several years GW seemed to be intentionally driving people away and still maintained a dominant market position reveals just how powerful their brand a d products are. If the bad years between WFB dying and the release of AoS didn’t kill GW another price hike will not. As with all of these pice hikes, a small number of people will stop buying and current buyers will buy less, but they may very well make more money at the end of the day.

I never really understood why people wanted GW to die anyway. It would be nice if we had some real competition. The big turnaround by GW in many ways after AoS released was becuase they saw a real opportunity for competitiors to seize a big part of the market. It spurred some actual, realistic discussions at GW it seems, and led to some positive outcomes for its buyers and investors both.

The only real force that would keep GW prices lower would be a few competing products that GW saw as an actual threat to their core games. Aside from maybe X Wing I’ve just never seen any other game come close, and that game occupies a slightly different space anyway. Bolt Action seems to be doing exceptionally well for what it is, but again not quite the same. When gates of Antares and Kings of war never really took off the writing was on the wall.
   
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stratigo wrote:
 Albino Squirrel wrote:
You're asking if it is okay for companies to choose what price they sell their products at? Uh, of course it is. That's how it works.


Are you sure? If GW suddenly decided every kit cost 1000 pounds or dollars or euros and the company quickly went out of business, would this have been an okay decision?


They are free to price them how they wish. Forum warriors have no right to tell gw what price is. What matters is what is price point gw gets most profit. Number of players etc is irrelevant. It's the final profit that counts. If 1000 pound gives more profit that is right price.

Gw and forum warriors disagree but question is will that hurt gw profit or not. Some quitting buying isn't it all. Gw being atm unable to keep up with supply actually indicates prices could very well be too cheap...

Welcome to the real world


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SeanDrake wrote:
 totalfailure wrote:
stratigo wrote:


GW almost went bankrupt a couple times mate under kirby. It isn't magical company immune to market shifts cause we nerds will pay whatever they demand and ask for more.


Incorrect, and easily disproved by financial data readily available. GW was, and has been continuously profitable, and paying dividends. 2014 was the worst year since 2010, returning numbers similar the 2000s. The Kirby years were profitable - the only successful accusation one can make as an investor is that they could, and should have been MORE profitable. The idea that they were going under or losing money during the Kirby years is just wishful thinking.


Hell yeah they paid dividends even if they had to take out bank loans to do it oh and remind me who the biggest personal share holders were again? Ahhh the board who decide if dividends should be paid. So there was never any situation short of bankruptcy that was going to stop those divided payouts.

And there were a number of years where they only turned a profit due to there licensed products like total war and some creative write offs


Uuuh you realize right numbers are public info? They didn't take loans. They had big profits. Not good idea to make claim that is easily proven deliberately constructed misinformation.

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They did borrow one year to pay the dividend. If my memory is right it was only once but they did borrow at least once for a larger dividend payment.

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SeanDrake wrote:
 totalfailure wrote:
stratigo wrote:


GW almost went bankrupt a couple times mate under kirby. It isn't magical company immune to market shifts cause we nerds will pay whatever they demand and ask for more.


Incorrect, and easily disproved by financial data readily available. GW was, and has been continuously profitable, and paying dividends. 2014 was the worst year since 2010, returning numbers similar the 2000s. The Kirby years were profitable - the only successful accusation one can make as an investor is that they could, and should have been MORE profitable. The idea that they were going under or losing money during the Kirby years is just wishful thinking.


Hell yeah they paid dividends even if they had to take out bank loans to do it oh and remind me who the biggest personal share holders were again? Ahhh the board who decide if dividends should be paid. So there was never any situation short of bankruptcy that was going to stop those divided payouts.

And there were a number of years where they only turned a profit due to there licensed products like total war and some creative write offs


That is something patently false. The year they released TW:WH (2015-2016) they *still* 10 millions of profit on their own activity. B
   
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 Hulksmash wrote:
They did borrow one year to pay the dividend. If my memory is right it was only once but they did borrow at least once for a larger dividend payment.


Loaning money to pay a dividend is actually perfectly fine and is actually a positive thing in business, companies like GW don't work like personal finance, LTD companies with shareholders and investors don't work like sole traders either.

Accounting is done after the fact, way after in many cases, the profits from that period may be retained or used and invested by the time accounts are finalised, but that doesn't mean the investors shouldn't get paid, so it's okay for a company to loan money to pay the dividend , infact it's sometimes much better to do so as it shows the market that the company is confident in its ability to pay the credit and that cash flow is good ,that provides potential investors with proof that they will get a return on investment.

Borrowing money in business is alot different from consumer borrowing.

This type of thing is another reason why comparing GW and it's pricing to other companies in this industry is pointless, GW operations are apples to everyone else's oranges.
   
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tneva82 wrote:
stratigo wrote:
 Albino Squirrel wrote:
You're asking if it is okay for companies to choose what price they sell their products at? Uh, of course it is. That's how it works.


Are you sure? If GW suddenly decided every kit cost 1000 pounds or dollars or euros and the company quickly went out of business, would this have been an okay decision?


They are free to price them how they wish. Forum warriors have no right to tell gw what price is. What matters is what is price point gw gets most profit. Number of players etc is irrelevant. It's the final profit that counts. If 1000 pound gives more profit that is right price.

Gw and forum warriors disagree but question is will that hurt gw profit or not. Some quitting buying isn't it all. Gw being atm unable to keep up with supply actually indicates prices could very well be too cheap...

Welcome to the real world


And on this level of reasoning, unless you are a gw shareholder, you shouldn't be okay with their price rises. YEs they can price as they wish (Except when they can't). But that's for THEIR benefit. Not the consumer's. So it behooves consumers to make as much of a scene and issue of the price raises as possible to disincentivize further price raises. But you seem to be the sort that goes "Anything a company does is good, any attempts to restrain it is bad".

The real word isn't "Corporations should have all the power, lay down and accept their dictates you parasites". That's Rand's pretend world.
   
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You don't seem to know much about how the real world works at all, stratigo. Or how businesses operate. But go ahead and rage against the machine. i'm sure Games Workshop will lower thier prices if you complain enough on a message board.
   
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stratigo wrote:

The real word isn't "Corporations should have all the power, lay down and accept their dictates you parasites". That's Rand's pretend world.
how exactly is our world different?

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