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p5freak wrote: As a mono Tzeentch player you are screwed against a vehicle list.
uh.... no, very hard no.
plenty of ways of dealing with vehicles, from screamers to the multi-smites and other mind bullets you should be packing as mono tzeentch, to say nothing of the flamers and exalteds.
of all the potential mono-god lists, tzeentch is pretty much the most prepared for dealing with vehicles because they don't need big smashy greater daemons to get the job done.
Nurgle is probably second best on account of MW output and auto-wounds on 'plague weapons', but still relies more on melee
Nurgle is terrible at killing vehicles, autowounding on 6's doesn't mean a whole lot when you are AP -2. Yeah, with WSP you can get to AP -3 but since every army in existance seems to have AoC now it just doesn't work out. A full squad of 10 Plaguebearers gets 21 attacks, hitting on 4's....Fishing for 6's is the only damage they will probably do anyway. If you back them up with a Poxbringer and a Plague Banner you are looking at 3-4 AP -3 D3 attacks, which is decent but it is costing the CP, the character and it is melee.
Beast are probably your next best bet, but you are paying essentially 80 points for an average of 2 MW each fight phase...which you may as well just take a Poxbringer and smite at that point.
Valkyrie wrote: I was unpacking my 40k stuff in my new flat and came across my Tzeench stuff, which I've never actually used in a game before. Would be good to finally give them a go but I'm pretty lost when it comes to working out how to actually run a psychic-heavy force, as one failed test seems to screw up most tactics from what I've seen.
One failed test and it's just couple mortals. Annoying but not disastorous and you have CP reroll. Daemons are light on stratagems so generally I use all on rerolls anyway.
If you can find flamers(super hard to find though) them doubling their numbers at the expense of some pink's/blues/screamers to taste would up the power big time. Not going to net you much friends though so depending on how much people around you play net lists might find hard to get game with that many though.
Valkyrie wrote: I was unpacking my 40k stuff in my new flat and came across my Tzeench stuff, which I've never actually used in a game before. Would be good to finally give them a go but I'm pretty lost when it comes to working out how to actually run a psychic-heavy force, as one failed test seems to screw up most tactics from what I've seen.
One failed test and it's just couple mortals. Annoying but not disastorous and you have CP reroll. Daemons are light on stratagems so generally I use all on rerolls anyway.
If you can find flamers(super hard to find though) them doubling their numbers at the expense of some pink's/blues/screamers to taste would up the power big time. Not going to net you much friends though so depending on how much people around you play net lists might find hard to get game with that many though.
I do have 9 Flamers, what exactly is their tactic though? They put out a load of shots, but unless you use the Strat to give them all 9 shots their firepower does seem a little limp-wristed in my eyes, compared to their apparent reputation.
I do admit I have just bought the Combat Patrol box as an early birthday present so with an old set of Bloodletters I found I would have this in addition:
I do have 9 Flamers, what exactly is their tactic though? They put out a load of shots, but unless you use the Strat to give them all 9 shots their firepower does seem a little limp-wristed in my eyes, compared to their apparent reputation.
Shoot stuff, kill stuff.
Each one puts out an average of 7x S5, AP-2 hits, very few things in the game can ignore that kind of weight of decent attacks. They just flat remove alot of the decent meta units that you'll find doing well at the moment.
Add to that, they can deepstrike, are fast with fly and are really tough when shot at. They suffer in combat but noone wants to be overwatched by them!
Valkyrie wrote: I was unpacking my 40k stuff in my new flat and came across my Tzeench stuff, which I've never actually used in a game before. Would be good to finally give them a go but I'm pretty lost when it comes to working out how to actually run a psychic-heavy force, as one failed test seems to screw up most tactics from what I've seen.
One failed test and it's just couple mortals. Annoying but not disastorous and you have CP reroll. Daemons are light on stratagems so generally I use all on rerolls anyway.
If you can find flamers(super hard to find though) them doubling their numbers at the expense of some pink's/blues/screamers to taste would up the power big time. Not going to net you much friends though so depending on how much people around you play net lists might find hard to get game with that many though.
I do have 9 Flamers, what exactly is their tactic though? They put out a load of shots, but unless you use the Strat to give them all 9 shots their firepower does seem a little limp-wristed in my eyes, compared to their apparent reputation.
I do admit I have just bought the Combat Patrol box as an early birthday present so with an old set of Bloodletters I found I would have this in addition:
Should flesh out(!) the Tzeench stuff a bit with a good bit of melee power.
Add 9 more.
And their firepower is just insane. I faced 15 flamers. Delete skarbrand, 10 bloodletters and 3 flamers in a turn. If I charge unit I get deleted. Not much can survive 38 S5/S6 -2 automatic hit. One unit with +1 to wound for added fun. Shooting at 3++++ W3 guys is inefficient and charging will get you hit by that 38 automatic hits again.
They are totally busted. Name unit that has better firepower than 38 S5 -2 automatic hits for 150 pts? Hard to find one.
Only army I have faced that didn't worry about THREE of them was 8 chaos knights, abbadon and 15 flamers...(plus tzeentch herald). Hard to get worried when you have 15 of your own
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/27 19:01:13
Valkyrie wrote: I was unpacking my 40k stuff in my new flat and came across my Tzeench stuff, which I've never actually used in a game before. Would be good to finally give them a go but I'm pretty lost when it comes to working out how to actually run a psychic-heavy force, as one failed test seems to screw up most tactics from what I've seen.
One failed test and it's just couple mortals. Annoying but not disastorous and you have CP reroll. Daemons are light on stratagems so generally I use all on rerolls anyway.
If you can find flamers(super hard to find though) them doubling their numbers at the expense of some pink's/blues/screamers to taste would up the power big time. Not going to net you much friends though so depending on how much people around you play net lists might find hard to get game with that many though.
I do have 9 Flamers, what exactly is their tactic though? They put out a load of shots, but unless you use the Strat to give them all 9 shots their firepower does seem a little limp-wristed in my eyes, compared to their apparent reputation.
I do admit I have just bought the Combat Patrol box as an early birthday present so with an old set of Bloodletters I found I would have this in addition:
Should flesh out(!) the Tzeench stuff a bit with a good bit of melee power.
Add 9 more.
And their firepower is just insane. I faced 15 flamers. Delete skarbrand, 10 bloodletters and 3 flamers in a turn. If I charge unit I get deleted. Not much can survive 38 S5/S6 -2 automatic hit. One unit with +1 to wound for added fun. Shooting at 3++++ W3 guys is inefficient and charging will get you hit by that 38 automatic hits again.
They are totally busted. Name unit that has better firepower than 38 S5 -2 automatic hits for 150 pts? Hard to find one.
Only army I have faced that didn't worry about THREE of them was 8 chaos knights, abbadon and 15 flamers...(plus tzeentch herald). Hard to get worried when you have 15 of your own
That's a fair call, there's not much with similar fire power for that points level. I do agree with the sentiment that 25ppm is too little. That said, it's not difficult to kill the flamers (even on planet bowling ball) - you just need to eat up overwatch with a disposable unit then throw in your capable melee unit. Alternatively making a charge against a different nearby unit then piling into the Flamers seriously cripples them.
The Warp Portal strat is for Tzeentch Characters. The psychic power you are thinking of is Shrouded Step, but that's from the Noctic Discipline (Be'lakor), not the Pandaemoniac Discipline (Tzeentch).
artific3r wrote: It's really going to suck when they nerf flamers without buffing anything else.
Expected nerf is a point increase to 30-32 pts each, would be fine and still let us function just the same almost using 2 squads of 5 for 300-320 instead or 3 for 375, this wouldn't be too big a hut I think l, more than than that becomes an issue though
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/29 11:11:13
artific3r wrote: It's really going to suck when they nerf flamers without buffing anything else.
Expected nerf is a point increase to 30-32 pts each, would be fine and still let us function just the same almost using 2 squads of 5 for 300-320 instead or 3 for 375, this wouldn't be too big a hut I think l, more than than that becomes an issue though
yeah but if they nerf flamers, they HAVE to drop prices somewhere else (cough cough, troops). Without flamers, LoC and BT, our codex kinda does nothing
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/29 14:20:46
yeah but if they nerf flamers, they HAVE to drop prices somewhere else (cough cough, troops). Without flamers, LoC and BT, our codex kinda does nothing
honestly I'd love a troops point drop anyway, because lack of inexpensive backline units that can do actions/secure objectives *really* hurts.
it's half the reason I'm tinkering with using the Belakor AoR for some CSM/Cultists
artific3r wrote: It's really going to suck when they nerf flamers without buffing anything else.
Expected nerf is a point increase to 30-32 pts each, would be fine and still let us function just the same almost using 2 squads of 5 for 300-320 instead or 3 for 375, this wouldn't be too big a hut I think l, more than than that becomes an issue though
yeah but if they nerf flamers, they HAVE to drop prices somewhere else (cough cough, troops). Without flamers, LoC and BT, our codex kinda does nothing
I actually think most of our troops are in a good spot with the only real exception is plaguebearers(don't like how much h support they need). And honestly an 11/12 point bloodletter would be too good for the damage and utility it brings, 13 is fine for them or you risk spamming enough to bring down 2 units/turn to just keep locking things in combat on a 4+ and Never letting the opponent move. That's fine in a vacuum but it hurts the overall gamestate and leads to some really not fun playstyles(imo). I could see daemonettes losing a point to compete with bloodletter as a melee troop option. Pinks should definitely not be cheaper as they are already abysmal to shoot at and split for free.
Imma leave plaugebearees out of this as i just don't like nurgle this book in general.
They've said in a few recent design articles that they don't care about internal balance, so Flamers might only go up if Daemons (and TS/CSM) are winning too much as a whole.
They might ignore this because Flamers are so good they stand out to everyone.
But, at this rate a Flamer drop might mean they need to buff other Daemon units, and TS units, and CSM units, because they might all be using Flamers as a crutch by December/January.
I actually think most of our troops are in a good spot with the only real exception is plaguebearers(don't like how much h support they need). And honestly an 11/12 point bloodletter would be too good for the damage and utility it brings, 13 is fine for them or you risk spamming enough to bring down 2 units/turn to just keep locking things in combat on a 4+ and Never letting the opponent move. That's fine in a vacuum but it hurts the overall gamestate and leads to some really not fun playstyles(imo). I could see daemonettes losing a point to compete with bloodletter as a melee troop option. Pinks should definitely not be cheaper as they are already abysmal to shoot at and split for free.
Imma leave plaugebearees out of this as i just don't like nurgle this book in general.
Every troop choice is overpriced by 10-30 pts. Paying at least 120 pts. for ten T3 W1 to get obsec and be able to do actions is insane. There are other troop choices for 50-80 pts. which have obsec and can do actions.
When your opponent shoots pinks he does something wrong, good for you. You dont shoot them, you kill them in melee. A moderately good melee unit can wipe out a unit of pinks in one fight phase.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/30 06:51:15
I actually think most of our troops are in a good spot with the only real exception is plaguebearers(don't like how much h support they need). And honestly an 11/12 point bloodletter would be too good for the damage and utility it brings, 13 is fine for them or you risk spamming enough to bring down 2 units/turn to just keep locking things in combat on a 4+ and Never letting the opponent move. That's fine in a vacuum but it hurts the overall gamestate and leads to some really not fun playstyles(imo). I could see daemonettes losing a point to compete with bloodletter as a melee troop option. Pinks should definitely not be cheaper as they are already abysmal to shoot at and split for free.
Imma leave plaugebearees out of this as i just don't like nurgle this book in general.
Every troop choice is overpriced by 10-30 pts. Paying at least 120 pts. for ten T3 W1 to get obsec and be able to do actions is insane. There are other troop choices for 50-80 pts. which have obsec and can do actions.
When your opponent shoots pinks he does something wrong, good for you. You dont shoot them, you kill them in melee. A moderately good melee unit can wipe out a unit of pinks in one fight phase.
Why are you letting melee units near pinks? Also, don't forget we are paying for an unchangeable save in any scenario. That should definitely not be free or even super cheap, remember brimstone spam in 8th? Yes 1 wound, but that save makes a world of difference. If you trying to get a unit of 10 dudes that all have a 4++ that can't be changed at all, that squad needs to at LEAST cost 100, and even then that's pretty cheap. Than you add in the ability to manifest anywhere, that definitely shouldn't be free, especially with how much better it is than regulardeepstrike. I have yet to fail a charge put of deepstrike in my dozen+ games with current list, you realize how nuts that reliability is? AND you can lock them in combat using WS. Please tell me you aren't thinking the insane utility that our unchangeable saves and manifesting anywhere should be free? We can't look at just the stat line, what they DO on the table is Important.
On a different note, what actions are you so desperate to be taking? Raise the banners? Admittedly this secondary isn't ideal for us as pinks/bearers are our only static troop to do that but why are you taking a secondary that isn't great? Reality rebels, nourished by terror, and then either warp ritual/interrogation(depending on oppnent) have all never gotten me less than 10 by the end of game. We aren't a horde army anymore, banners should be hard anyway.
Do I wish some demons were cheaper? Of course I do. Do they NEED it? No not really, 2 squads of 5 flamers at 30ish points will cost the same as 3 squads of 4 do now and will perform essentially the same role.
Now, I do agree that a lot of our stuff is slightly too expensive, but troops aren't really one of them. Fleshhounds losing a point to be 90 for 5 I think would be good, soul grinder brought down to 180, I think Screamers should raise to 35 pts a model and hit on 3s instead, daemonettes I kind of want to see at 110 instead just to give more incentive to pick them instead of auto picking letters for the lock in combat and extra fight phase movemenet.
Pinks are interesting for me cause 150 IS high for a basic troops but running only one to screen DS and hold home obj is great, especially averaging 20-25 wounds before dying(If they somehow got in my backing to threaten the charge on pinks I put a squad of flamers between pinks and enemy unit so they have to charge flamers first and get overwatched.
As a final note, I actually think people are stuck in the horde/monster mash mindset of smash them as hard into the paint as you can and mop up objectives later too much for our codex atm. We are a passive/stall playstyle imo, our tools are near perfectly designed to take the part of the map we want and just not let you on it, we don't have the numbers or the threat saturation for constant aggressions and would leave too many gaps for opponent to take advantage of. Ours is a uniquely frustrating playstyle that grinds people down.
Obviously these are just my opinions but it's what I been thinking playing nothing but demons and loving this edition a lot
To be fair, you can't control every situation and a savvy opponent will get the Pinks into combat. Pink shooting isn't threatening enough to necessarily prioritise them for ranged attacks, so an opponent leaving them alone until they are in range for close combat is not unreasonable. In terms of the unchangeable save, it is largely functional to army-wide invulnerable that we had previously - we just get to ignore the limited ignores invulnerable attacks.
For Horrors specifically, we now have manifestation and splitting included in the cost. The save has been improved, but we have less bodies to absorb shooting. I played a game today where my Pink Horrors didn't even get a chance to split from the enemies shooting attacks (A Guard Company Command Tank with Punisher). If you are playing Pinks as back-line units, then manifestation means nothing. Their shooting is not particularly effective, and given their poor save in close combat I wouldn't want to risk them manifesting into the front lines. It's OK to take one or two units of Pinks, but you are giving up a considerable opportunity cost in more effective units.
Regarding the idea of "We are a passive/stall playstyle", that basically says to me that we are not competitive in the scene. I tried playing Nurgle lists that basically held the board, and it did that well. The problem is that we never got past turn 3 before time was up. Not because of slow playing, but because the opponent had considerably more things to do T2 and T3 then if we both were losing a quarter+ of our army each turn. Perhaps it's less of a problem with chess clocks, but they aren't used in my part of the world.
I rather see the Daemon playstyle as a hammer and anvil. You have your heavy hitters and durable units that tie up the enemy (BT, LoC, Be'lakor), and the supporting cast that hold fast and weather any attention that gets directed their way.
On a different note, what actions are you so desperate to be taking? Raise the banners? Admittedly this secondary isn't ideal for us as pinks/bearers are our only static troop to do that but why are you taking a secondary that isn't great? Reality rebels, nourished by terror, and then either warp ritual/interrogation(depending on oppnent) have all never gotten me less than 10 by the end of game. We aren't a horde army anymore, banners should be hard anyway.
Looks like you dont play against Tyranids, Necrons, (C)SM, Custodes. Otherwise you wouldnt pick nourished by terror. Warp Ritual/Psychic Interrogation is not fun against an opponent who can spend 1CP and deny on 4+. Banners is something the opponent cannot deny, unless he captures that marker.
Now, I do agree that a lot of our stuff is slightly too expensive, but troops aren't really one of them. Fleshhounds losing a point to be 90 for 5 I think would be good, soul grinder brought down to 180, I think Screamers should raise to 35 pts a model and hit on 3s instead, daemonettes I kind of want to see at 110 instead just to give more incentive to pick them instead of auto picking letters for the lock in combat and extra fight phase movemenet.
Pinks are interesting for me cause 150 IS high for a basic troops but running only one to screen DS and hold home obj is great, especially averaging 20-25 wounds before dying(If they somehow got in my backing to threaten the charge on pinks I put a squad of flamers between pinks and enemy unit so they have to charge flamers first and get overwatched.
You screen against DS with a single unit of pinks ? How do you do that ?
EightFoldPath wrote: They've said in a few recent design articles that they don't care about internal balance, so Flamers might only go up if Daemons (and TS/CSM) are winning too much as a whole.
They might ignore this because Flamers are so good they stand out to everyone.
But, at this rate a Flamer drop might mean they need to buff other Daemon units, and TS units, and CSM units, because they might all be using Flamers as a crutch by December/January.
Kansas City Open happened this weekend and every chaos list is running 3x5 flamers. What's likely to happen when GW reviews their data:
Flamers in every list? Smack 'em with the nerf bat.
Daemons with near perfect external balance, sitting at just over 50% winrate? Looks good, no changes.
Now, I do agree that a lot of our stuff is slightly too expensive, but troops aren't really one of them. Fleshhounds losing a point to be 90 for 5 I think would be good, soul grinder brought down to 180, I think Screamers should raise to 35 pts a model and hit on 3s instead, daemonettes I kind of want to see at 110 instead just to give more incentive to pick them instead of auto picking letters for the lock in combat and extra fight phase movemenet.
wait, you're saying troops are fine but fleshhounds/soulgrinders need a pts reduction?
and screamers should already be WS3 with their current pts cost lol.
Looking over some Khorne Daemon options and considering the Skull Altar currently.. Is the SA able to be used with Deep Strike? Or am I stuck with being forced to start the game with it deployed in my deployment zone?
You can deepstrike the altar. But as it is a fortification you cannot set it up within 3" of any other terrain feature that is not part of its own datasheet.
eternalxfl wrote: Looking over some Khorne Daemon options and considering the Skull Altar currently.. Is the SA able to be used with Deep Strike? Or am I stuck with being forced to start the game with it deployed in my deployment zone?
As others have mentioned, you can put the Skull Altar into the warp for manifestation. The Skull Altar is quite useful for its Witchbane and Ritual Slaughter abilities. The Warp Locus on it is largely irrelevant - you are looking at bringing it down T2 and bringing other units down T3. You can get a net -3ld if you have the Aspect of Death War Lord Trait and Primeval Terror warp storm effect which reduces most units leadership to 6 or lower.
3d printing, or you need to get lucky at buying second hand. I recently bought 3 flamers still on sprue, without box. I now have 12, and thats all i need. Going with 18 is insane, no one would want to play against me anymore.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/02 16:00:40
Mad_Proctologist wrote: where are you guys even getting flamers? They're sold out everywhere I look.
Some of us have 27 Flamers from the last time they were good.
In late 5th edition, when we had Eternal Warrior on everything, Flamers were 1W, 32pt models. GW released a new kit (the current one) and did a White Dwarf update that dropped the price to 23pts and gave them a wound. That was when they just wounded anything on a 4+ and ignored armor and cover saves. I immediately started running three squads of 9.
They weren't quite as good in 6th and 7th ed, when the Flying Circus was king, and I didn't play Daemons in 8th. But those Flamers were sitting in a box in my garage the whole time waiting for their time to come again.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/02 17:40:23
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Mad_Proctologist wrote: where are you guys even getting flamers? They're sold out everywhere I look.
I just happen to have 12 lying around from 4 of the start collecting tzeentch boxes I bought a couple years back. I like 3 squads of 4 anyway so worked out for me
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/03 19:14:21
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