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Well I've played a number of games of 40K and WFB to get back into the GW hobby, but I can honestly say I have not enjoyed it.

I find the armies and the gameplay as boring as when I left them many years ago. Nothing has changed and I feel that little else will.

Another reason to defect is because of the price of the miniatures - they are for lack of a better term - extortionate.

With a young family (soon to be increased in size by one) I find it impossible to balance a hobby like GW around my family commitments - if anyone else has this problem, please comment.

I'm going back to play Warmachine/Hordes.

I find PP are more value for money - especially with the Retribution as you get a full unit per box, the games are much more fun, there are less models to purchase and for someone like me who has limited hobby time due to deadlines and family commitments, it's a perfect comprimise.

Anyone else care to comment???

cya

First off, I would like to say that fun is an opinion, and my opinion of PP games is rather low. So we sit on different sides of the fence on that matter.

I can understand your feeling and that you feel the GW is rather expensive [be thankful you don't have to buy all your models of FW, but they look great]. However I feel that they are an ok price for the quality they produce.

I on the other hand don't have a family to look after.

I personally am siding with GW on this one

So, do you have any models that you want to sell off for cheap?

Privateer FTW.

Nurglitch wrote:So, do you have any models that you want to sell off for cheap?

Not many.

A DA Battleforce, some 1K sons and a daemon prince is all i got i think.

I can't ship out of the UK though.

If time and family is a concern you might look at one of the prepainted games. There's something nice about instant gratification.

Games Workshop, over the course of its lifespan, has made plenty of mistakes. White Dwarf is pretty bad as it is, the new website is a tad rubbish, prices climbing, etc.

However, which company hasn't? I'm not asking you to not quit, or to love GW heart and soul, but the company is obviously trying. Now, trying and failing, now that depends on your point of view, but at least they try.

But it seems that the GW hobby is just not working out for you, which can be seen as quite understandable. I hope you enjoy Privateer Press, as Hordes/Warmachine always seemed like a nice game, one that I have always wanted to dabble in.

P.S.

Gah, no cheap models to buy.

Have fun with Privateer dude. Hope the grass is greener for you.

I'm the opposite of you pretty much, I can't seem to get inspired by Warmachine/Hordes for the life of me. My enjoyment of WHFB/40K just can't seem to die away and I owe that to the great group of folks I game with.

To each his own. From what I see people buying, the amount spent by Warmachine players easily rivals the amount spent by the average GW player. And of course there is are a good amount who buy both.

But play the game you have the most fun with.

I used to buy both, but realized that I played one every week and the other only once
in a blue moon. One thing lead to another and suddenly I'm running small Warmachine
events at the LGS.

The funny thing is, I do have a Fantasy game (or two) over winter break, but once
that break is over it's back to the grind (no pun intended as I haven't modified
my grind boardgame jacks yet) for me.

I play Warmachine/Hordes at least once a week, and with the field test for hordes
extended into January I feel like I'll actually be able to give feedback on this one.

radiohazard wrote:

I find PP are more value for money - especially with the Retribution as you get a full unit per box, the games are much more fun, there are less models to purchase and for someone like me who has limited hobby time due to deadlines and family commitments, it's a perfect comprimise.

This statement in itself, proves the power behind Privateer press.

The fact that the customer feels that there is more 'value' is truly strong.

Because I feel this way as well, and I collect both GW and PP. I actually feel ok buying something at PP retail (even though i barely do).

Even though in truth WM/H does cost a lot still to go up competitive,


It just 'feels' better. heh.

The hobbyist in my is tempted by the nice kits from GW, but when I want to play PP is the game for me.

In my opinion the WM/ Hordes rules are much tighter and contain less of loop holes and plain stupid rules (LOS and casualty removal in 40k) than the GW rules.

In addition with the limited hobby time I enjoy painting the PP armies as I don't have to paint as many identical grunts for WM/ Hordes, usually one unit is all I need.

Therefore I have been playing only PP's games in the past few years. I still follow what is happening in 40k, but haven't had much inspiration to paint or play my armies. Even the SW upgrade didn't push my to upgrade or play with my favorite 40k army.

Personally, I've stopped buying either. Got rather bored with both universes/styles of game.

There's a lotto the argument that PP is just GW but 15 years later...

Sure they've learned a lot from GW's mistakes where GW have chosen not to, but ultimately I find them just as sterile and devoid of new ideas.

I played 40k, WFB, LotR and WotR a handful of times last year. I played WM once (got a bit sidetracked with MkII - sort of took the shine off playing MkI, but I can't be bothered relearning the rules for the new edition, even though I think PP handled the transition well) and Hordes not at all (even though I have a decent sized army picked up for buttons in a firesale) - there's something about the IP that just doesn't really interest me any more. It just seems too "silly" perhaps? Dunno. Don't really care enough to analyze my reasons.

Basically I just find myself bored playing in the same old game and like trying new stuff and original stuff, rather than getting too deep into an old game.

My current kick is 1:72 scale WWII - now that's a cheap way of gaming! Knocks GW and PP into a cocked hat for price, and there are so many systems out there to try, you're bound to find one you enjoy. I'm also feeling big about "naval" operations - on sea or in space - so I'm enjoying US, F:A and even BFG and of course FT a lot as well.

To be honest, I'm gradually shying away from 28mm and into smaller scales for choice. I just can't summon up the enthusiasm to paint the bigger models in any quantity these days, although I still enjoy the feeling of fielding an army I painted myself. I get more satisfaction churning out the less demanding smaller figures - which look just fine on the table with a very simple basecoat/wash/drybrush and can be produced in large numbers for little money and time.

The older I get, the less I can be bothered to paint figures up to anything more than a basic level. I recently came across some LotR figures that had got misplaced in my store boxes, that I had painted 5 years back, and I was staggered by how well I had bothered to paint them - they were just simple Uruk-hai models, but I had taken real care and layered them very nicely. Nowadays there's no way I could be bothered to go to those lengths. I acquired a box of 5 Malifaux figs a few weeks back, and I just bashed them out in two nights - base coat, wash, drybrush and bang you're done. Looked just fine from 3 feet away, which is as close as I'll ever get. A few years back they'd have taken me a fortnight easy and I'd have layered, and even maybe tried NMM on such well-sculpted models. Not now. It's strange how attitudes change over time.

Just my 2p. Doesn't in itself make PP or GW bad (although I have my problems with them for other reasons), just I find my nature and gaming opportunities favour other things these days. To be honest, my New Year's Resolution is not to buy any unpainted miniatures at all in 2010, but to paint up what I have in my backlog instead. And this year the way I'm feeling right now I suspect that I won't have much of a problem sticking to it. Any money I do spend will be on board/card games, (possibly) AT-43, Arcane Miniatures (maybe) and possibly any new rulesets that catch my eye. Any purchases will be something that are novel, don't require painting, and will have to be perceived by me as very good value for money.

Perhaps this is as much about aging as anything. I'm 41 and I'm long past believing anyone else around me (even my fellow gaming group) is remotely interested in the standard to which I paint my models, so I don't particularly feel any need to feel "pride" in my painting? Life these days feels too short to waste so much effort on something so trivial and unvaluable?

Anyway, I'm rambling (must be the age). Long live diversity!

Thing is I agree with this dude on the pricing MY GOD! the amount of money I have spent on shiney things is rediculous!! and I feel my time in the hobby running out with the distasteful looks I get from my wife every time I come in with a new battalion/battleforce or a new unit.

But I cant leave GW thats like cheating on a spouse or playing for the opposite team.

I'm going back to play Warmachine/Hordes.

I guess you're right, WM/Hordes can be more rewarding.
The models are nice, the price structure is okay and the game is fantastic.

It's not so bad.

It's only bad if you're outstripping your budget or not adjusting your budget
to adjust for large purchases.

Don't leave things on the credit card to accumulate interest.

Don't buy lots of plastic/lead AND video games/systems AND upgrade your computer.

Don't hire out to high end escort services.

It is certainly expensive, but no more so than other hobbies. Think about the cost of owning and stabling a horse, owning a small fishing boat or playing a round of golf. Per hour, are our plastic army men really that expensive?

Gitzbitah wrote:It is certainly expensive, but no more so than other hobbies. Think about the cost of owning and stabling a horse, owning a small fishing boat or playing a round of golf. Per hour, are our plastic army men really that expensive?

And the answer to that would be yes

radiohazard wrote:Well I've played a number of games of 40K and WFB to get back into the GW hobby, but I can honestly say I have not enjoyed it.

I find the armies and the gameplay as boring as when I left them many years ago. Nothing has changed and I feel that little else will.

Another reason to defect is because of the price of the miniatures - they are for lack of a better term - extortionate.

With a young family (soon to be increased in size by one) I find it impossible to balance a hobby like GW around my family commitments - if anyone else has this problem, please comment.

I'm going back to play Warmachine/Hordes.

I find PP are more value for money - especially with the Retribution as you get a full unit per box, the games are much more fun, there are less models to purchase and for someone like me who has limited hobby time due to deadlines and family commitments, it's a perfect comprimise.

Anyone else care to comment???

I think you are being a little harsh, and the idea that going over to PP is going to save you money is laughable.

Honestly? Pricewise, PP is worse for the cost.

Aye, it is fun, though with a much more varied style of play, but if you actually want to talk cost, Lets look at this.

Where I am, it cost me 43.99 for a basic box of Khador. Thats 2 jacks, and a caster. ( I picked up Sorscha, the Jug and the destroyer in that box, BTW.)

Of course that wasn't going to cut it, so I picked up another Destroyer for around 23.00, a boxed set of 6 for 25 bucks or so, (Count them 6 whole woodsman!), a manhunter for 10 bucks, 2 more packs of woodsman at 2 figures a piece for around 10 bucks each, and the blister pack of Herne Stoneground & Arquebus Honne for around 20 bucks or so. Of course the BoomHowlers do well for the added smash, so I picked up a box of them for 35.00, and two more blisters for around 20 bucks more each.
WHOOOOHOO!!!!
So. 43.99+23.00+25.00+10.00+10.00(2)+20.00+35.00+23.00+20.00(2)= 239.99, give or take. I didn't add in tax, and the prices were rough estimates, in between my morning and coffee.
3 Jacks, 1 caster, 10 woodsman, a manhunter, 10 Boomhowlers, and Herne Stoneground and Aruebus Jonne.

As oppposed to a boxed set of GW's flagship game at 50-70 bucks, one box of 16 Orks boyz at 25 bucks one squad box of space marines at 25 bucks and 2 tanks each for the Orks ( Truk) 25.00 and the Rhino for 25.00.

That is 70.00+ 25.00+25.00+25.00+25.00= 170.00 give or take. ( Thats 2 ARMIES, by the way.) small, but look at this---
Boxed set copmes with 5 terminators, 1 squad of 10 Marine guys, a Captain, and a Dreadnaught. You add in another squad, and a rhino and that is more then enough to get you out of the gate. ADD the fact that you get 1 Warboss, 20 Boyz, 5 Nobs and 3 Deathcopters, plus the added 16 Ork Boyz and the truck and you make out like a Fat Rat.

170.00, as opposed to 239-240 and some change. ( remember, I was being conservative on the PP stuff.) Of course I didn't add in tax on that stuff, but then you arn't adding the fact that PP has consistantly added more to their way of Codex Creep in a much more different way.

I started out writing a whole thing about the change in cost, but the bottom line up front is that ALL OF THESE GAMES cost money.
Some more then others, but don't fool yourself into to thinking that PP is cheaper. In anything, you invest more then just your monitary value.

Time, Effort, Painting, Scenery, etc.etc.etc. It all goes into the mix.

Have fun with whatever you want to, but don't take the rose colored glasses off from one company, just to put on another pair from another.

These games COST. That is the nature of the beast. It sucks, but that is just how things are.

Gitzbitah wrote:It is certainly expensive, but no more so than other hobbies. Think about the cost of owning and stabling a horse, owning a small fishing boat or playing a round of golf. Per hour, are our plastic army men really that expensive?

Like many people I would not be doing any of those other things if I wasn't making models. It's a bit silly to defend one expensive thing by saying there are other expensive things, owning a boat or a horse are pretty extreme examples the vast majority of people don't do these extragavant things. Fact is that if I didn't make models I'd do more reading or watch more TV or get into amature photography a bit more. I'd save a lot of money, which is pretty much why I don't buy a lot of stuff any more and tend to dig around in the old collection for things or get stuff 2nd hand. Because it is expensive in real terms, simply saying that it costs more per hour to ride a horse a couple of times a month than making GW models every night does not alter the bottom line impact on your paypacket.

Good time to be going back to PP games with the impending release of MkII Warmachine in a few weeks here. Also, since the MkII rules and model stats for every faction are available from PP as a free download in both Warmachine and Hordes (in testing), this is a very good time to establish a baseline knowledge of the entire game.

I sometimes think about playing a bit of 40k again, there must be some love there if I played for seven years and collected 5 armies right? Then I remember those turns where every model stands and shoots, or where entire armies do nothing but advance near the closest enemy - and I realize that it's not just the spotty rule set, complete lack of playtesting, logarithmic price increase pattern, or total disrespect for their playerbase that keeps me out - it's really just a much less interesting game to play from the ground up.

GW still puts out some great kits though. I've almost snagged a Valkyrie and Skaven wheelie just to paint.

I went thru several changes. I'm a painter first so I don't play that often.

I was a hardcore Rackham player. Mid-Nor and Goblins. I bugged out when they dumped Mid-Nor and went prepainted plastic.

I went to PP and painted Warmachine and then Hordes. Never played and but needed something to paint so PP was it.

I went back to GW with Apoc. Sold everything else and never looked back Glad you found what right for you radiohazard. The modeling and painting that I can do in 40k is a magnetic pull for me.

and i should care because...

Other than the Fluff (and perhaps the quality of some of its miniatures) there's really no reason to stick with GW. So if you don't find the fluff compelling it's a waste. Interestingly enough, GW is well aware of this and that explain they are much more aggressive in defending their I.P. than writing good rules etc...

To each his own. I love GW models but am not a fanboy of GW Corporate. As much as I'd like to get into Warmachine it just doesn't draw me. Can I say one is better than the other? Not really because they're two different games, styles, etc. Should my play style change and fit the Privateer ruleset, I'll head right on over. Then if I get tired, I'll come right back.

Value is in the eye of the beholder. It's not my job to convince someone that one system is better than the other. That's up to each company and their marketing/design teams. I can try to influence more players for 40k, but I can't ram it down their throats just as they can't force me to like Heroclix or any of those pre-painted-by-slave-labor-8-year-olds clicky games (shudder).

The point is to have fun. If GW isn't fun for someone, why should they keep playing. If PP isn't fun, why play? And the list goes on...

Sorry to lose a player from GW but at least he's still doing miniatures instead of saying "screw it" to all wargaming!

toymaker wrote:I went thru several changes. I'm a painter first so I don't play that often.

I was a hardcore Rackham player. Mid-Nor and Goblins. I bugged out when they dumped Mid-Nor and went prepainted plastic.

I went to PP and painted Warmachine and then Hordes. Never played and but needed something to paint so PP was it.

I went back to GW with Apoc. Sold everything else and never looked back Glad you found what right for you radiohazard. The modeling and painting that I can do in 40k is a magnetic pull for me.

Similar experience. Liked the Rackham stuff, but I like to game with what I paint. Have big painted WM and Hordes armies, liked the play, but missed the modeling and converting I can do in 40k and WFB. I've kept all my other armies and play them now and then. (FOW an odd exception, in that while you can't 'convert' a tiger, you can do a hell of a lot of modeling with and dioramas with the historicals, having fun with that, and like to get in games when I can.) I always come back to GW games for both the models, and the games.

And, as a retailer, I find GW gives me huge support. With PP, I have to spend 45.00 to run their tournament. With GW they start out by giving my shop 150.00 in prize support a month, and work up from there.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Like many people I would not be doing any of those other things if I wasn't making models. It's a bit silly to defend one expensive thing by saying there are other expensive things, owning a boat or a horse are pretty extreme examples the vast majority of people don't do these extragavant things. Fact is that if I didn't make models I'd do more reading or watch more TV or get into amature photography a bit more. I'd save a lot of money, which is pretty much why I don't buy a lot of stuff any more and tend to dig around in the old collection for things or get stuff 2nd hand. Because it is expensive in real terms, simply saying that it costs more per hour to ride a horse a couple of times a month than making GW models every night does not alter the bottom line impact on your paypacket.

Fair enough. I suppose my point was that the 2 or 3 hundred dollar army that one builds and paints ought to last you for as long as you care to play that race. Once you have the army, you're buying maybe a box a month as you slowly tweak your force. The maintenance cost is as low as you want it to be- if you have 2000 points, you don't have to change your force until a new codex comes around in 3-10 years. If you continued to supplement that force over that period of time, you shouldn't need to buy anything but the new models- and even those would be a matter of preference.

Our hobby has a high initial buy in, but very little in the way of maintenance cost. An 8 hour tournament generally costs 10 dollars or so at my FLGS. I wonder what the average game really spends on the hobby per month- for me, the number would probably be 20-50$ a month. There are certainly months where that is much higher, but that's my average consumption per year. That's cheaper than cable. I just don't regard it as an expensive hobby, over the long term.

Well I personally think the pp minis look way too funny for my taste and they aren't exactly el cheapo and working with metal minis would be pain in the ass.

But why you don't find in warhammer enjoyable to play? In my latest game with 40k 10 howling bashees emerged from a sewer behind my troops (I had 4 nurgle csm though last time these banshees killed my noise marines and khorne berzerkes). Banshees killed 2 and rest of them fleed of the board. My opponent commented with following: "oh look mighty csm running away after they get beaten by girls hahaha" What are you gonna do when they smell so bad hahahah"

Even after the game I only had 5 models left (and thats all from our team) but I still find the game extremely enjoyable.

But, both companies have expensive products. Why change back to something that is just as expensive??? Warmachine has some complex rules and confusing game mechanics. They call it Fast Play ans Easy, but it really isn't. Then few weeks later, you will be posting "F*** Privateer, I going back to GW". Just stick with one thing and complete it. Then get into something new. I wish there were more Easy rules to make other Games fun to play.