To hell with GW, I'm going back to Privateer.

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**malfred**

illuknisaa wrote:Well I personally think the pp minis look way too funny for my taste and they aren't exactly el cheapo and working with metal minis would be pain in the ass.

But why you don't find in warhammer enjoyable to play? In my latest game with 40k 10 howling bashees emerged from a sewer behind my troops (I had 4 nurgle csm though last time these banshees killed my noise marines and khorne berzerkes). Banshees killed 2 and rest of them fleed of the board. My opponent commented with following: "oh look mighty csm running away after they get beaten by girls hahaha" What are you gonna do when they smell so bad hahahah"

Even after the game I only had 5 models left (and thats all from our team) but I still find the game extremely enjoyable.

Yeah, you get moments like that in Warmachine, too.

In fact, if the person you're playing is fun, you'll get moments like that in most types of games.

**Polonius**

Do what makes you happy. I mean, I've washed my hands nearly completely of WFB, as I just don't enjoy it.

At some point, personal preference carries the day.

**Corrywl83**

Hi Radio

I wish you the best of luck.

I am still an avid 40K player, but I go through cycles. There will be times I put it down to play FoW or something else. This year has been rough what with a new Daughter and moving so Hobby/Game time has been minimal as well as the restructuring of Finances.

If we are talking about the cost of Hobbies, I bought a Tamiya Tiger I, cost me $85.00 before taxes. Also not a cheap hobby...lol

Either way, having fun whether painting, playing or collecting is important and if PP does it for you, all the power to ya.

Corry

**Orkeosaurus**

While I don't think very highly of Warmachine/Hordes, it's always nice to see some competition coming up against GW.

**JohnHwangDD**

@OP: Good for you!

If you're not having fun, get out of the game as soon as possible. GW isn't for everyone, so if you don't like it then for pity's sake, don't do it.

Tho I do find it a little amusing you're going to PP, because it's not like their models are any cheaper or less time-consuming.

If you really wanted to shrink down, maybe consider a pure skirmish game like Infinity / Malifaux / whatever.

**RogueMarket**

Have any of you guys found any good PP deals?

Cuz I aways find them on sale for 50% off, if you deal hunt.

**jackvolerich**

One thing that GW has though is that there models can still have a good resell value after the box is open and if painted a even better value then bought and some models get a bigger value such as the old tallarn squad can go for up to $60-$70 on eBay or something. I am not so sure about Privateer Press or war machine but games workshop does seem to keep it's value in what you buy.

**Sidstyler**

Not really, just like most other stuff GW models plummet in value the minute you remove them from the shelf.

The only way to get your money back, or profit from them, is if you're selling a Forge World model (people will pay retail for it if it means getting a model within a week, FW ships so damn slow), or if you're a tit and you put a Buy It Now on the auction for a ridiculous amount (or try to drive up bids by putting "OOP OOP COLLECTIBLE THEY DON'T MAKE THESE ANYMORE VERY VALUABLE!!!!" all over the auction, like I recently saw on some old boxes of Catachans...they were the plastic models in 3rd edition packaging, same models they make now, but the seller was claiming they were rare and valuable).

**Fateweaver**

Of all the things I've done as "hobbies" in my life 40k has been the cheapest. In the past 15 years I probably have around $9-10K invested into 40k but 6 years ago I was big into tournament style paintball and because my team was not sponsored I was doing 2 tournaments a month and probably investing between $800 to $1000/month between paintballs and Nitrogen for practice and tournament entry fees and then lodging if the tournaments were out of town that month. If I wanted to buy some new gear or upgrade my gear I could easily plop down another $300-600 in one shot.

Over the course of 10 years I could have bought a brand new car off the lot for what I had in paintball. The last gun and air supply I bought were a little over $2k.

$2K would buy a lot of 40k figs that would last me a long time. $2k on a paintball gun is a lot of money when 9-12 months down the road the next fastest, most air efficient gun comes out so you get that "new toy" tingle.

**Squig_herder**

Fateweaver wrote:Of all the things I've done as "hobbies" in my life 40k has been the cheapest.

QFT

I do drums and audio engineering for the band [self learning process] and a cymbal by itself will cost atleast $500AUD for a good one. Mixing desk 500+, etc. 40k is cheap when compared to other hobbies

**Vertrucio**

All the more reason why not to bother with GW. Cost isn't a concern, but your enjoyment is.

If you don't like the game, don't feel obligated to stay with it just because you have models for it.

If a company doesn't do right by its customers, stop buying from them.

Likewise, I stopped buying PP stuff a few years ago during the dark ages of Warmachine when the rules got out of hand. With Mk2 out now it's a great game that affordable to get into, but can easily scale up in cost to a 40k army if you want to invest that much.

To me, GW has shown time and time again that it's going to take 40k down a road that will never be enjoyable for me. However, privateer press's actions in releasing all the Mk2 materials for free online, along with allowing the game to be officially played via vassal, shows me they're willing to do what it takes to make a good game.

**CT GAMER**

Vertrucio wrote:
However, privateer press's actions in releasing all the Mk2 materials for free online, along with allowing the game to be officially played via vassal, shows me they're willing to do what it takes to make a good game.

Or their smart enough to know that if x number of people are bitching about something GW is doing or is perceived to be doing then the best bet is to do the opposite and use that to your own advantage.

Vassal is allowed at present because they have enough people grumbling about having to switch over to MKII, but new books, etc. ,etc. They know that Vassal is a bridge they don't need to cross right now when their public relations plate is already full.

I'd bet money that PP will pull the plug on their IP being used in vassal in the next few years at most...

**JD21290**

I can see your thinking here mate when it comes to price.
Recently thought about grabbing a unit of 8 crushers, since, you know, they are amazing.
For some reason they are now £18 each? lol.

The greater daemons were £25 each for the metals, the kit changed and they stayed the same price.
They go to £30, and now £35 for the same fething model?

Fun wise i dont have any problems, however, i tend to play mainly friendly games with a few drinks involved.
Tournie wise it aint too bad, but now, every unit that is half decent costs a fething fortune lol.

Best unit in the daemons dex: 8 crushers: £144.
Thats a massive 320 points lol.
Some people actually field 3 units of these, me thinks i need a better job

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: Never played warmachine, so i wont comment. (may look at thier models though)

**JohnHwangDD**

Vertrucio wrote:However, privateer press's actions in releasing all the Mk2 materials for free online, along with allowing the game to be officially played via vassal, shows me they're willing to do what it takes to make a good game.

Do we know for a fact that these are the final version of the rules, or is PP going to "tweak" them a bit and only sell that version via rulebook?

**Cannerus_The_Unbearable**

We do realize there are more than two mini companies, right? Anima tactics blows both companies out of the water for me

PP gets a boost for having actual rules though.

**Solorg**

As a gamer who now has a youngling for the first time, I will be the first to admit that your hobby time goes WAY down. Even painting at home becomes VERY difficult (you always need 2 hands to stop the little one from falling over onto the floor, or eating cords, or you name it - this is at least twice every minute).

It is at times like this that you need to rely on your current collection of models - because you won't have time to play AND put together lots more models.

So if you already have friends who play GW and you own the models, play that. If you have some Privateer Press and friends who play it, go for it.

Probably not the time to start painting entire new armies. It costs a lot to obtain MORE models (using what you have already is how you save the most money) than it does to get into a whole new line of miniatures. Yes, adding more GW models costs lots, too, but either way, you need time to paint AND play if you are going to buy any more.

This is a DEMANDING hobby even for someone who is single. You need a night to paint, a night to play, and a night to draw up a decent army list. That's 3 nights a week!

If you love it, do it. But you have to pick your battles, pardon the pun.

SW minis or D&D minis would be 2 good ways to get an army FAST which you won't have to paint. In fact, anything you can buy already painted will be helpful.

In a few years, your kids will probably JOIN you in the hobby - that's when it pays off for the hobby. But of course, first things first. Keep taking good care of your little ones and wife. As for gaming time, do your best to make the most of it when you get some and enjoy. It is a great release from the day to day.

**malfred**

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:We do realize there are more than two mini companies, right? Anima tactics blows both companies out of the water for me PP gets a boost for having actual rules though.

They have beautiful minis. Not sure on the rules, though.

**radiohazard**

Jesus, I didn't expect to get this many replies to this thread - Thanks.

I've been playing PP games since WM since 2003. I saw a Khador Destroyer and purchased it and a rulebook straight away. My FLGS at the time closed down and I couldn't get anymore PP models.
Move fwd to 2008 and my best friend opens a store and I recommend to him PP products. He orders some in and it becomes his best seller. I purchased a huge Khador force and a Cygnar force (which is up for sale BTW and will be on the trade board as soon as I get my ass in gear).

Fun wise I enjoy painting PP stuff and playing WM/Hordes a lot more than GW. You can play the games with just a 'caster and a couple of Jacks. Which is really good as it gives you some gaming experience and then lets you paint your stuff as you get used to how your army plays.

In regards to prepainted model games - Can't stand them. I used to study art and like to paint, so it's kinda ingrained. Besides - painting is part of the wargaming hobby.

In regards to what company has the best models - It comes down to personal preference. IMO GW hasn't had any decent models for ages, where as PP releases some dang gorgeous models which I want to paint, even if I don't collect that particular army.

Again, the whole subject comes down to personal preference.

**knightdrake**

Yep a personal preference of what you like and either way it will be a big money pit in the end.

In the end it is a matter the PP has created MK2 to steamline and improve game play where the various 40k editions have dumbed down the game to drive into a younger demographic. Fluff and models are attractive but playing a game where who can roll the bigger bucket of dice just blows.

Good choice of game system with Provateer Press. You may be interested in Malifuax for a small skirmish game and a unique card mechanic to resolve gameplay.

**JohnHwangDD**

knightdrake: I'm sorry, but you're completely wrong there.

PP dumbed down their game. GW streamlines their game.

Get it right, thanks.

**BryanC**

JohnHwangDD : PP did not dumb down the game at all. Having played MKII quite a bit, and having played a ton of MKI, I can assure you the changes made were to reduce some of the complexities that were introduced over time.
I am not entirely sure that GW is streamlining their game anymore, as it has played very well since 3rd ED.

**Flashman**

Something of a GW apologist. Aside from recent pricing and rules inconsistencies (which can usually be solved with a mature discussion), they don't do anything that I find particularly irritating.

I'm really loving their models at the moment to the point where I'm actually finishing painting projects.

That said each to their own. Have fun in your chosen system

**knightdrake**

JohnHwangDD wrote:knightdrake: I'm sorry, but you're completely wrong there.

PP dumbed down their game. GW streamlines their game.

Get it right, thanks.

And when was the last time a Codex was actually playtested?

Get it right, thanks.

**CT GAMER**

WM and 40K are apples and oranges for me.

40k feeds my sci-fi/aliens/lasers/robots appetite and offers lots of possibilities for modeling and conversion of models and customization of army. The fluff/story and tone/setting are the draw.

Warmachine feeds my fantasy-ish/swords/elves/undead/steampunk-ish appetite and offers a level of strategic planning/combo building/tactical theory machine application and CCG-style game play that 40K doesn't come close to offering and is the draw.

40K is the artists/creative hobbiests game. Form is more important then function.

Warmachine is the tactician/army builder/theorymachinists game. Function is the whole point.

Neither works as a replacement for the other as I see them, and though certain characteristics and qualities of both games overlap, personally each is rewarding in far different ways...

**JD21290**

And when was the last time a Codex was actually playtested?

Got to hand it to you there.

Nothing new from GW is "streamline"
Infact, due to poor wording and no proof reading the new dex's are pure crap.
Im just hoping the new nid dex doesent follow suit or ill be selling off the nids to carry on with my daemons and BA

**knightdrake**

Grot 6 wrote:
radiohazard wrote:Well I've played a number of games of 40K and WFB to get back into the GW hobby, but I can honestly say I have not enjoyed it.

I find the armies and the gameplay as boring as when I left them many years ago. Nothing has changed and I feel that little else will.

Another reason to defect is because of the price of the miniatures - they are for lack of a better term - extortionate.

With a young family (soon to be increased in size by one) I find it impossible to balance a hobby like GW around my family commitments - if anyone else has this problem, please comment.

I'm going back to play Warmachine/Hordes.

I find PP are more value for money - especially with the Retribution as you get a full unit per box, the games are much more fun, there are less models to purchase and for someone like me who has limited hobby time due to deadlines and family commitments, it's a perfect comprimise.

Anyone else care to comment???

I think you are being a little harsh, and the idea that going over to PP is going to save you money is laughable.

Honestly? Pricewise, PP is worse for the cost.

Aye, it is fun, though with a much more varied style of play, but if you actually want to talk cost, Lets look at this.

Where I am, it cost me 43.99 for a basic box of Khador. Thats 2 jacks, and a caster. ( I picked up Sorscha, the Jug and the destroyer in that box, BTW.)

Of course that wasn't going to cut it, so I picked up another Destroyer for around 23.00, a boxed set of 6 for 25 bucks or so, (Count them 6 whole woodsman!), a manhunter for 10 bucks, 2 more packs of woodsman at 2 figures a piece for around 10 bucks each, and the blister pack of Herne Stoneground & Arquebus Honne for around 20 bucks or so. Of course the BoomHowlers do well for the added smash, so I picked up a box of them for 35.00, and two more blisters for around 20 bucks more each.
WHOOOOHOO!!!!
So. 43.99+23.00+25.00+10.00+10.00(2)+20.00+35.00+23.00+20.00(2)= 239.99, give or take. I didn't add in tax, and the prices were rough estimates, in between my morning and coffee.
3 Jacks, 1 caster, 10 woodsman, a manhunter, 10 Boomhowlers, and Herne Stoneground and Aruebus Jonne.

As oppposed to a boxed set of GW's flagship game at 50-70 bucks, one box of 16 Orks boyz at 25 bucks one squad box of space marines at 25 bucks and 2 tanks each for the Orks ( Truk) 25.00 and the Rhino for 25.00.

That is 70.00+ 25.00+25.00+25.00+25.00= 170.00 give or take. ( Thats 2 ARMIES, by the way.) small, but look at this---
Boxed set copmes with 5 terminators, 1 squad of 10 Marine guys, a Captain, and a Dreadnaught. You add in another squad, and a rhino and that is more then enough to get you out of the gate. ADD the fact that you get 1 Warboss, 20 Boyz, 5 Nobs and 3 Deathcopters, plus the added 16 Ork Boyz and the truck and you make out like a Fat Rat.

170.00, as opposed to 239-240 and some change. ( remember, I was being conservative on the PP stuff.) Of course I didn't add in tax on that stuff, but then you arn't adding the fact that PP has consistantly added more to their way of Codex Creep in a much more different way.

I started out writing a whole thing about the change in cost, but the bottom line up front is that ALL OF THESE GAMES cost money.
Some more then others, but don't fool yourself into to thinking that PP is cheaper. In anything, you invest more then just your monitary value.

Time, Effort, Painting, Scenery, etc.etc.etc. It all goes into the mix.

Have fun with whatever you want to, but don't take the rose colored glasses off from one company, just to put on another pair from another.

These games COST. That is the nature of the beast. It sucks, but that is just how things are.

Nice way to skew these number for 40k you should use relevent data for this. Khador 35 point list would cost you around $150-170 range depending on choices. Your 40k estimate is a joke as any game played worth the effort is between 1500-1850 points and far exceeds your number of $170. Be realistic and don't go for the rosey picture. I bought the AoBR box and 500 points roughly a side best go back to the board and redo your math to purchase another 1k.

**BryanC**

CT GAMER : I agree entirely with your sentiments
I absolutely love GW models and aesthetic. It is definitely a hobbyist game. It does not, in my opinion fill me need for a competitive miniatures game.

**PWC**

I am really shocked by some intense fanboyism in this thread. While I realize dakka dakka is geared towards GW more than PP, I do not support the fact that one group is willing to bash the other over some silly differences.

Having played warhammer 40k since around 2002, and warmachine around 2006-7, I can't say that an argument with regards to apples and oranges is sufficient to convey the differences, though to continue that thought, apples and oranges are sweet and tangy and fill that role of fruit nicely so that preference over either of them isn't necessary. Unless you're allergic.

I would first like to mention direct price comparisons are skewed because who buys the bare essentials?
I find that GW's battle boxes tend to includes useful things and then not so very useful things, and things that a person may not even want to field.

Eventually after some time, one would buy new models anyway.

I find Warmachine intellectually full-filling, having to position models just right coupled by a need for an intrinsic knowledge of what "Magic the Gathering" users would refer to as "the Stack".

I find 40k to be spiritually full-filling, as playing orks and smashing things without having to think very hard can be very fun. Not to insult the player base as having to not think. But I don't exactly find my self agonizing over small details in 40k than I do in Warmachine.

Lastly, Thank you very much, Knightdrake, you said exactly what was on my mind.

Edit: To actually address the op's thought. Warmachine is a pretty rad game, I like its intimacy between players and the models.

**skrulnik**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Vertrucio wrote:However, privateer press's actions in releasing all the Mk2 materials for free online, along with allowing the game to be officially played via vassal, shows me they're willing to do what it takes to make a good game.

Do we know for a fact that these are the final version of the rules, or is PP going to "tweak" them a bit and only sell that version via rulebook?

The current version of the MkII rulebook PDF is supposed to be the same as what the printers got.

With the release of the Primal MkII draft rules for the HORDES Field Test, Privateer Press has chosen to concurrently release an update to the Prime MkII rules so that all players are on the same page for the Field Test. This download represents the rules section of the final Prime MkII rule book that will be available in January 2010 and serves as an update to the version released earlier. We look forward to your HORDES Field Test feedback. Thanks!

from here http://privateerpress.com/company/prime-mk-ii-rules

**Hawkins**

Well as many have missed it, the first thing should be to say Congradulations on the new baby soon to arrive.
I also commend you on dropping GW, they dont deserve any ones money at the momment, they do deserve a swift kick though.
Also i agree PP puts out some great models, my favorites being the trenchers. and the rules if you stick with em are fun and enjoyable... SLAM.... never get tired of SLAM....
Best thing i can say is PP is popular so it wont to hard to find people to play with. in any event, forget GW and have fun with the new family.