To hell with GW, I'm going back to Privateer.

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**knightdrake**

Bottom line regardless what which side says about either game we are all suckers for the miniature hobby.

Game on and yall have a happy and Merry Christmas, hope Santa brings you more minis to play and paint.

**JohnHwangDD**

PWC wrote:I am really shocked by some intense fanboyism in this thread. While I realize dakka dakka is geared towards GW more than PP, I do not support the fact that one group is willing to bash the other over some silly differences.

I'm assuming that this bit directed to knightdrake, because he's the one who posted the fanboi dumbing down / streamlining post that got the whole thing rolling.

Tho to be fair, my snarky reply probably didn't help things much.

**radiohazard**

Hawkins wrote:Well as many have missed it, the first thing should be to say Congradulations on the new baby soon to arrive.
I also commend you on dropping GW, they dont deserve any ones money at the momment, they do deserve a swift kick though.
Also i agree PP puts out some great models, my favorites being the trenchers. and the rules if you stick with em are fun and enjoyable... SLAM.... never get tired of SLAM....
Best thing i can say is PP is popular so it wont to hard to find people to play with. in any event, forget GW and have fun with the new family.

Thanks Dude.

He's not due til 8th April, but hell, thats gonna go soooooo quickly.

TBH, as a long time GW fanboy, former long term employee (6 years), I do actually agree with you that they don't deserve my money.

PP on the other hand do, as most of their models (except the Cavalry) are amazing.

In my home town, more people play WM/hordes than 40K. Same in Cambridge too. Stoke is completely dry of PP, but hell, I'm only 90 minutes from home on a train and 40 minutes from Manchester. When I move back home on a more permanant basis, i'm sure I'll be able to escape home for one night a week to get a game in.

BTW - My favourite PP model has and probably always will be Behemoth

BTW again - If nobody minds, I'd like to do some tacticas for WM/Hordes. I've been playing since 2003 and have a lot of knowledge about how each army plays. Any objections?

**Fateweaver**

I guess I'm not really seeing how you MUST spend X amount of dollars on a 40k army to enjoy it.

40k in 40 minutes can be played with 400 pts and depending on what you buy won't cost much more than the starter box for WM.

I look at the individual prices and while WM might be designed for small skirmishes (still unfair to compare it to 40k which isn't designed for small skirmishes but more aimed for 1500-2000) and I see spending as much or more for a 1500pt warband as it would cost for a 1500pt 40k army.

So yeah, I have as much fun with 400-500pts of 40k as I have with 500pts of WM and the cost difference is not that negligible.

Really, for the enjoyment I get 40k has been worth every penny. The money I spent on paintball to this day scares the crap out of me but I had fun and I don't regret my spending.

If you don't like GW games anymore don't play but please don't tell people that do enjoy GW games that they are tools or fan-boys or apologists. I don't call potheads or methheads tools (though I do call them other things and since this is a public forum I can't repeat them here) but I don't berate them for wanting to get stoned on a daily basis.

**radiohazard**

I'm not berating the GW fans.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I am voicing mine.

**Seon**

As a dedicated Menite, i love my tyranid Rippers

in my opinion... i prefer Warmachine over 40k as it requires a ALOT more Skill to play, and you have access to alot more tactics and manuevers you can deploy, and has extreme amounts of carnage possible.

though i do like warhammer 40k... some of its rules are a bit ?? and it revolves more around just roll dice and stuff dies.
oh well, atleast when new codex comes out i might actually win a game ^_^

**Fateweaver**

It wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. I'm just going from experience.

I'm still not seeing how 40k doesn't involve tactics. I didn't think WM was any harder. Ooh, I got my OP caster power off and now to insta-kill your caster and win the game because you couldn't pull your combo off in time. Reminds me of MtG. Soon as you got your uber combo off your opponent had no chance.

At 400pts 40k plays a lot differently than it does at 2500 or 3k (then again 40k isn't really balanced or designed to go above 1850).

**Grot 6**

knightdrake wrote:
Grot 6 wrote:
radiohazard wrote:Well I've played a number of games of 40K and WFB to get back into the GW hobby, but I can honestly say I have not enjoyed it.

I find the armies and the gameplay as boring as when I left them many years ago. Nothing has changed and I feel that little else will.

Another reason to defect is because of the price of the miniatures - they are for lack of a better term - extortionate.

With a young family (soon to be increased in size by one) I find it impossible to balance a hobby like GW around my family commitments - if anyone else has this problem, please comment.

I'm going back to play Warmachine/Hordes.

I find PP are more value for money - especially with the Retribution as you get a full unit per box, the games are much more fun, there are less models to purchase and for someone like me who has limited hobby time due to deadlines and family commitments, it's a perfect comprimise.

Anyone else care to comment???

I think you are being a little harsh, and the idea that going over to PP is going to save you money is laughable.

Honestly? Pricewise, PP is worse for the cost.

Aye, it is fun, though with a much more varied style of play, but if you actually want to talk cost, Lets look at this.

Where I am, it cost me 43.99 for a basic box of Khador. Thats 2 jacks, and a caster. ( I picked up Sorscha, the Jug and the destroyer in that box, BTW.)

Of course that wasn't going to cut it, so I picked up another Destroyer for around 23.00, a boxed set of 6 for 25 bucks or so, (Count them 6 whole woodsman!), a manhunter for 10 bucks, 2 more packs of woodsman at 2 figures a piece for around 10 bucks each, and the blister pack of Herne Stoneground & Arquebus Honne for around 20 bucks or so. Of course the BoomHowlers do well for the added smash, so I picked up a box of them for 35.00, and two more blisters for around 20 bucks more each.
WHOOOOHOO!!!!
So. 43.99+23.00+25.00+10.00+10.00(2)+20.00+35.00+23.00+20.00(2)= 239.99, give or take. I didn't add in tax, and the prices were rough estimates, in between my morning and coffee.
3 Jacks, 1 caster, 10 woodsman, a manhunter, 10 Boomhowlers, and Herne Stoneground and Aruebus Jonne.

As oppposed to a boxed set of GW's flagship game at 50-70 bucks, one box of 16 Orks boyz at 25 bucks one squad box of space marines at 25 bucks and 2 tanks each for the Orks ( Truk) 25.00 and the Rhino for 25.00.

That is 70.00+ 25.00+25.00+25.00+25.00= 170.00 give or take. ( Thats 2 ARMIES, by the way.) small, but look at this---
Boxed set copmes with 5 terminators, 1 squad of 10 Marine guys, a Captain, and a Dreadnaught. You add in another squad, and a rhino and that is more then enough to get you out of the gate. ADD the fact that you get 1 Warboss, 20 Boyz, 5 Nobs and 3 Deathcopters, plus the added 16 Ork Boyz and the truck and you make out like a Fat Rat.

170.00, as opposed to 239-240 and some change. ( remember, I was being conservative on the PP stuff.) Of course I didn't add in tax on that stuff, but then you arn't adding the fact that PP has consistantly added more to their way of Codex Creep in a much more different way.

I started out writing a whole thing about the change in cost, but the bottom line up front is that ALL OF THESE GAMES cost money.
Some more then others, but don't fool yourself into to thinking that PP is cheaper. In anything, you invest more then just your monitary value.

Time, Effort, Painting, Scenery, etc.etc.etc. It all goes into the mix.

Have fun with whatever you want to, but don't take the rose colored glasses off from one company, just to put on another pair from another.

These games COST. That is the nature of the beast. It sucks, but that is just how things are.

Nice way to skew these number for 40k you should use relevent data for this. Khador 35 point list would cost you around $150-170 range depending on choices. Your 40k estimate is a joke as any game played worth the effort is between 1500-1850 points and far exceeds your number of $170. Be realistic and don't go for the rosey picture. I bought the AoBR box and 500 points roughly a side best go back to the board and redo your math to purchase another 1k.

Be realistic and read the post.

Point being How much did I pay for the Khadors again?

As for realistic, you are welcome to price the same out, add in the tax this time and go ahead and post what you have.

How many miniatures did I price out for the 40K, as opposed to the Warmachine? You think I was wrong? OK, show me that I got a better deal for the Khadors then for buying a BASIC batch of 40K stuff. Nevermind that I showed a basic, 2 GW army start as opposed to the one Warmachine faction start.

I was being general with both, had you taken off your own glasses, you would have seen that.
FWIW, I'll throw, tommorrow. I'll go give you an exact price and show you how you will really get it stuck to you from BOTH companies. I know what I paid for the Kohdors, seeing as I just bought them 2 weeks ago. I haven't bought GW since the Black Reach boxed set, so I was using my numbers from that time.

The POINT of my post is that this hobby costs, regardless of what you pay, you don't just pay in cash.

What was the point of yours again, other then to try to call me out?

**JohnHwangDD**

Seon wrote:i prefer Warmachine over 40k as it requires a ALOT more Skill to play,

Really? I've played WM and it's about the same, just with fewer minis.

But really, none of these games require tremendous amounts of playing skill per se. It's not like you're in some sort of kraftwerke situation requiring intense study & practice before you can even play, much less win. The different games require different kinds of tactical / strategic acumen, but any claim of "more skill" is doubtful.

**R3con**

I'd love to try WM, I just cant justify another venture into a mini game right now..

I keep looking at that firestorm armada though....

**Lord of battles**

Im thinking about starting Warmachine: because
I really really hate GW right now after all the crap, the blood bowl rulebook put me over the edge!

**malfred**

Not a good reason to go Warmachine.

Play warmachine if you like the game/universe/models, not because you hate
another company.

**syr8766**

I'm in the same boat. When the 5th ed. Eldar codex came out, I got all psyched and started throwing lists together, then just found an overwhelming sense of ennui take over--just this profound feeling of boredom. I've played maybe a handful of 40k games since, and haven't played in close to 2 years. I don't miss it, and don't even miss the GW figs. I dumped a PILE at a local store auction (including my Sisters Army), kept a few pieces that I want to paint, and am mostly concentrating on Malifaux, PP, and Victorian Sci-Fi/Historicals gaming, using figs from Foundry, Wargames Factory, Copplestone, Artizan, Brigade, Sash & Sabre, Reaper, and others. And I haven't even started diving into the Warlord and Perry plastics...

Play what's fun. Paint what you like. Enjoy your hobby.

**Fateweaver**

No offense but I think some people are letting the BB thing get them so po'ed that it can't be healthy.

Seriously, it's not as if GW sold your daughter for slavery. Quitting a game over something like that won't make it go away and you might realise 3 months into WM that you hate WM, then you've wasted all that time and money out of anger? Frustration?

Don't play another war game because you hate GW over something so trivial. Play another war game because it's interesting rules and fluffwise (which is why I won't touch WM as neither the rules or fluff interest me at all).

**JohnHwangDD**

Lord of battles wrote:Im thinking about starting Warmachine: because
I really really hate GW right now after all the crap, the blood bowl rulebook put me over the edge!

IMO, you would do far better to smash, burn, and melt every single GW-produced figure that you own. Please video it for our enjoyment.

**Hawkins**

I think going over to another game BECAUSE you HATE GW is a perfect excuse to try another game, sure there is no garuntee that the other game will be awesome, but trying new things is healthy as far as the Mini hobby is concerned.
The worst case is you dont like it, the best case is you find something to fill the hobby void GW has left us recently.
And it sends the right message, 'GW youve Fracked up, to hell with your buisness policies, to hell with your game, and to hell with You scewing with the fans, and a great big to hell with you.' (frothing at the mouth and megaphone optional.)

**Kanluwen**

Going over to another system because you hate GW is akin to that great old saying "cutting off your nose to spite your face".

Stop buying things from GW. Do some research and demo games of other systems. Find one you like.

Worst comes to worst, then you've still got your collection of GW models and can play with those no matter what. You just won't be buying anything new.

**JohnHwangDD**

No, destroying your minis is cutting your nose off, which is why I suggested it.

**Fateweaver**

If anyone wants to destroy their minis send them my way. I'll cover shipping and it helps out fellow gamers who still like GW games (unless it's Dark Eldar than you can destroy those as they are too ugly to exist).

**Fafnir**

I bought some Trollblood minis (Borka Kegslayer, Troll Axer, Earthborn Dire Troll) the other day, and I have to say, I'm very impressed. Beautiful sculpts, very little flash, and you get a lot of model for your buck, and the minis are very big(although this may just be because they're freaking Trollbloods). I havn`t been this pleasantly surprised since I decided to pick up a few anima tactics figures (which are absolutely beautiful, some of my favourites).

Lately, especially with the release of the SW codex, I`ve felt that GW`s been dropping the ball time and time again, and the rules only get worse and worse. Phil Kelly used to be my favourite codex writer (Orkz and Eldar both being versatile, fun, and fairly internally balanced), but with the mess that is the pups, the poor editing and complete lack of playtesting really shows.

PP`s massive playtesting campaign really got me interested in their games, and after glancing through the rules and character cards, I`ve really come to appreciate the depth, uniformity, and quality of the rules.

Of course, finding people to play against will be a different story, but I`ll try to get my 40k friend at Lethbridge to proxy some stuff with me, and if anyone hates what GW`s done with their rules, it`s him. If I can`t find anyone to play against, I still love the models (and I`m a painter far before I`m a player, so it`s all good).

My main problem with GW is that I only like painting interesting models. After painting 40 orkz, it becomes a chore to paint the other 100. With university work to deal with, and other recreational activities, it`s hard to convince myself to paint generic boy number 72. With a skirmish style game that focuses on many different, smaller, more characterful units, beasts, and machines, it becomes much easier to paint each mini. This reason would also be my major detractor from WHFB above all else, as not only do you have plenty of the same model to paint, many of them will end up doing nothing more then filling ranks, making them feel even less characterful and more useless.

The reason I started with Inquisition, and try to run my Orkz based on a more elite setup, is because I like each model counting towards something important, and being characterful in their own right. But with each new codex, GW seems to be moving away from that idea, focusing less on more characterful units, and more on pure volume.

**H.B.M.C.**

Kanluwen wrote:Going over to another system because you hate GW is akin to that great old saying "cutting off your nose to spite your face".

No it's not. It's not even close.

It's going over to another game to find something different because you find the practices of another company callous and reprehensible.

**Fateweaver**

Shouldn't the biggest reason for trying another game system be to branch out, to try something new, not because of spite but a genuine interest in something new?

Doing something out of spite is very rarely a good idea as most of the time once you cool down over whatever it was that slighted you enough to make you do something spiteful in the first place you will regret doing whatever it is you did.

Not to mention how many people will stay with a new system? I can list about 8-10 dakkaites who said they'll boycott GW but ONLY for 2 months and in February they will be buying the new Tyranid stuff. Yeah, way to stick it to the man. Err, not really.

Quit playing GW games because you genuinely want to try something new, not because big brother kicked sand in your face.

**Noisy_Marine**

Yep PP actually listens to their customers.

That and their games let you chain together sweet combos to make uber armies. Cheese is balanced if every faction has it!

**radiohazard**

I don't hate GW. Not in the slightest. I don't like their business practices - lack of proper play testing, excessive price hikes, a drop in quality models and army books, rude staff and most importantly very boring games and game mechanics. I think game mechanics because I've been playing for over 20 years.

All of these things have pushed me away from GW, but I still like the background - I still buy all the novels and the odd army book for a good read.

**Kanluwen**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:Going over to another system because you hate GW is akin to that great old saying "cutting off your nose to spite your face".

No it's not. It's not even close.

It's going over to another game to find something different because you find the practices of another company callous and reprehensible.

Since when should business practices get in the way of enjoyability?

I can understand to a point boycotting and any number of ways to make your voice heard.
But refusing to play with armies you already own, the gaming group you already have, the rulebooks you already have and starting a brand new system you and others may or may not like just to give GW the big kiss off?

That seems a bit silly, even if GW deserves it.

**Fateweaver**

One thing I'm not seeing is how the quality of GW minis is dropping.

The new Ork models are stunning, the daemons are stunning (the ones that aren't retro like the Crushers and the Heralds), the SW's are stunning (the Terminators moreso) and I'm digging the new skaven stuff. The new Tyranid stuff makes me even more glad I stuck with Tyranids.

Some other companies have nice sculpts don't get me wrong but I am really hard pressed to see how overall the quality of GW minis is going down. Egads, just look at SH. Those termies (ignoring the flawed Crux) look way better than any other mini GW has produced and that's for a board game (and even H had good things to say about the mini quality).

**Fafnir**

I wouldn`t say that the quality of GW`s minis is dropping, just that they`re being far surpassed by plenty of smaller companies. Guys like Gamezone, Avatars of War, and Edge/Anima Project Studio are simply better and in many cases, cheaper.

**Fateweaver**

Oh I know some of GW minis suck (not a single LOTR mini I like, even Balrog is not that great) but I've seen way more lame minis from PP and at prices way higher (cavalry for instance from PP is just insane compared to GW cavalry and in metal no less. I'll take the plastic Chaos Knights over any of the PP cavalry and for about 1/2 the price).

I think it's dependent on taste. I like some of the Hordes and PP sculpts and some of the old Rackham sculpts but none of the APS sculpts or Gamezone grab me. Sodapop minis has some cool sculpts, amazing even but they are about on par with GW in terms of price.

**H.B.M.C.**

Fateweaver wrote:Shouldn't the biggest reason for trying another game system be to branch out, to try something new, not because of spite but a genuine interest in something new?

Biggest, perhaps, but it certainly doesn't have to be the only.

As you saying it is impossible to find a desire to do something else because you start to dislike the thing you're currently doing, or the people responsible for the thing you're doing?

Kanluwen wrote:Since when should business practices get in the way of enjoyability?

Never said it should, only that it can.

**Balance**

If you're annoyed with GW I'd suggest at least look at other companies. This isn't marriage where fidelity is important, after all!

Maybe a good Dakka Article idea would be a brief guide to a bunch of other games all on one page. Basically, "If you're tired of GW's games, here's some alternatives to try." with links to appropriate resources (quickstart docs, etc.).