Codex 'sweet spots' in various point games

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**Thor665**

Something that just occurred to me as I answered another poster's thread. I have a clear idea in my mind that various codices tend to build towards 'sweet spots' at various point levels.

For instance; my beloved DE can be very dangerous up to about 2,000 points. But after that we start to become less dangerous as we've already basically maxed out our FOS and are obligated to just make each unit more expensive rather then better. DE hit their sweet spot probably at 1750 where they can field a lot of firepower compared to other armies at that build level.

Meanwhile, Orks are like small green gods in games of 500 points or so, because no one can bring what is needed to stop da boyz with so few points available to them while the orks are swarming around with giant mobs ready to get stuck in.

I was curious if other players here have noticed this phenomenon and care to share their opinions of where various other codices really hit their sweet spot? At what point level does a given army become viable and at what point level do the extra points become meaningless?

**Dodiez**

Hrm....I feel that Orks are absolutely destructively potent in the 1850-2000 range too. Not the 1500 point level so much because a lot of units are either incomplete or missing - but 1850-2000 is a fantastic point level.

**Locclo**

I've found that Tau tend to be better for higher point cost games. Assuming no Apocalypse (You mentioned that DE start to just dump points when the FOC is full) Tau seem to be quite effective around 1500 to around 2000, after which most games at my FLGS just become Apocalypse. Any lower than that, and Tau are kinda stuck putting points into necessary slots, while at higher costs they can easily fill out HQ + 2 Troops and have plenty of points left over to add in some Heavies and Elites. Any higher than 2000 and Tau end up just pumping out more Fire Warriors for the points.

**Grimm**

I've noticed that my Wolves are really bad at low points. Puppies are so expensive points wise, that they just get outnumbered and mobbed really quickly.

**Thor665**

I certainly agree with that, Grimm. The various Space Marine iterations are all really expensive and it takes quite a few points for them to be able to start fielding enough to really make them a threat.

Do you have an opinion on where the tipping point might be? (e.g. they suck at 1000 but are competitive at 1500).

**LordofHats**

In general I think most of the armies do their best between 1500 and 2000 points. At 1500 you start having enough points to field a well rounded force, though you may have to make some sacrifices to fit what you want into the budget. At around 2000 points most armies seem to be able to fill their FOC and built a well rounded and balanced army with a few hundred points of change for extra stuff. Past 2000 most armies just seem to start dumping points wherever they can.

My Crimson Fist list has filled its FOC (except for troop slots) by 2000 points. Above 2000 all I can really do is add more troops and upgrades to what I already have.

**Dodiez**

That's a good point. I think its not army specific, but that the 1500-2000 point range lets you bring a collection of fleshed out units. I don't go to 500 point games or combat patrols, I want a well-rounded army facing another well-rounded army.

**Crimson Cobra**

Dodiez wrote:That's a good point. I think its not army specific, but that the 1500-2000 point range lets you bring a collection of fleshed out units. I don't go to 500 point games or combat patrols, I want a well-rounded army facing another well-rounded army.

I find this interesting because I rarely play games over 1000 points. I consider it a fun challenge to make a decent list at this level. I think my friends and I are all fairly decent at doing this, so we often have very fun balanced games. The closer I get to 2000 the more overwhelmed I get just taking all the great things I want. I feel that higher points makes it too easy to bring all the best stuff and dominate your opponent.

**LordofHats**

Crimson Cobra wrote:I find this interesting because I rarely play games over 1000 points. I consider it a fun challenge to make a decent list at this level. I think my friends and I are all fairly decent at doing this, so we often have very fun balanced games. The closer I get to 2000 the more overwhelmed I get just taking all the great things I want. I feel that higher points makes it too easy to bring all the best stuff and dominate your opponent.

At 2000 points anyone can bring just about anything. I see what you mean though. Below 1500 you got to make some real sacrifices in list making XD.

**sniperjolly**

I think that IG's "sweet spot" is between 1500 and 1000 pts.
IG at those points can have a well rounded army with artillery, mech, infantry, and tanks while other armies are making so-called, hypothetical "sacrafices" hah!
IG are also good at higher points, but I decided to pick out 1500-1000 just because other races haven't hit their stride yet.

**Brother SRM**

Grimm wrote:I've noticed that my Wolves are really bad at low points. Puppies are so expensive points wise, that they just get outnumbered and mobbed really quickly.

They were a lot worse in the old codex though - any game higher than 750 points required you to buy two HQs. That led to a lot of situations like the following:
"Hey guys, how many points are we playing today?"
"1000 should be good"
"

you guys."

**Leigen_Zero**

I have to agree at orks being awesome-sauce at 500pts, not many forces (guard and nids aside) can field ~60 infantry at that low a level, and at 750pts they are pretty good (just add stuff to 500pt list as the troops are already there!).

However at 1000pts they are kind of sucky, lots of troops but not enough points left to bring the really awesome stuff to the table yet...

**Frenzied Potato**

1000 Mechdar list. Having 5-6 Wave Serpents makes for an interesting battle.

**HellsGuardian316**

I tend to find Marines are good at 1500-2000pts
and as Locclo said, Tau for the 2000+ pts

**Sanctjud**

Most of my games have been between 1500-2000.
My SM bikers are happy at 1500.
My CSM army are happy at 1675 or 2000.

But back to the SM bikers, I do think that 1500 is the sweet spot.
Just enough bodies:special weapon ratio, while the opponent can't get all their toys.

**MOMUS**

Finally a interesting discussion

yes codexes do have 'sweet spots'
although it could be argued that this is intended
as most veer towards the 2000pt range
which is a very common benchmark for an army/battle

i find CSM pleasing @ 2000pts
and IG very effective @ 1500pts

battles of 1000pts is a good way to challenge each other

**Morgrim**

My DE do well at the 700-1200 bracket (we do campaigns, odd point value games are common), but that might be playstyle. I don't do an over mechanised army and tend to have about >30 bodies at that point which gives me a bit of a buffer against the fragility of my troops. It's modified hammer and anvil. Everyone expects the hammer, few consider that massed splinter fire and some special weapons actually makes a decent dent in even charging marines and can tarpit them a round or two.

**Thor665**

I agree that DE do very well below 2,000. At 2,000 generally we're struggling a bit and over it we've already maxed our slots to the point that we're just building more expensive rather then more effective.

There's lots of armies (the various SM options and IG) who can build quite nasty in the 2k+ range. I suspect there are at least a few other armies who really peter out around 2,000 due to the nature of the FOC and their options.

**Volkov**

Well the imperial guard sweet spot is about 8000 points, after that you have to start using other FOC slots other than troops

**Emperors Faithful**

Volkov wrote:Well the imperial guard sweet spot is about 8000 points, after that you have to start using other FOC slots other than troops

This post.

I approve.

**Brazila**

My necrons are good at...oh screw it.....

**MOMUS**

i think that DE differ from other races because of their codex being slightly outdated
the new iteration should bring them back in line

maybe DE should be better @ lower points, as they are after all a pirate race.
they raid planets not assault them

**Morgrim**

MOMUS wrote:i think that DE differ from other races because of their codex being slightly outdated
the new iteration should bring them back in line

maybe DE should be better @ lower points, as they are after all a pirate race.
they raid planets not assault them

Agreed.

And that's my justification for half my troops running off the table each match, they know when to make a tactical getaway. (Hint: if you're a pirate and space marines rock up, your trip is no longer profitable. Go raid somewhere the marines aren't. Bonus points for going after the civilians on their homeworld while they're attempting to catch you.)

**Thor665**

MOMUS wrote:i think that DE differ from other races because of their codex being slightly outdated
the new iteration should bring them back in line

An interesting thought. However, I would disagree that either of the Inquisition books have the same over 2,000 issue DE have and they are both basically just as old. I think it's just the way that given codex is written. Certainly not all newer codices hit sweet spots at 2000 either I suspect (as noted, I actually think Orks hit their sweet spot at 500, where playing green is basically equivalent to an auto-win).

**Gwar!**

For Space Wolves it used to be 750, 1500 and 2250

**Locclo**

Volkov wrote:Well the imperial guard sweet spot is about 8000 points, after that you have to start using other FOC slots other than troops

I approve this message as well. Although if they don't take that 4+ save, my Tau don't give you armor saves...ever.

**Emperors Faithful**

Meh. You'll run out of ammo before you're done killing us. Yes, even with energy weapons.

**Morgrim**

Thor665 wrote:
MOMUS wrote:i think that DE differ from other races because of their codex being slightly outdated
the new iteration should bring them back in line

An interesting thought. However, I would disagree that either of the Inquisition books have the same over 2,000 issue DE have and they are both basically just as old. I think it's just the way that given codex is written. Certainly not all newer codices hit sweet spots at 2000 either I suspect (as noted, I actually think Orks hit their sweet spot at 500, where playing green is basically equivalent to an auto-win).

Maybe it's just how my ork friend plays, but I thump him at that points cost...

**MOMUS**

ME too! but we usually play a version of combat patrol when we get real low

i think they 'lean' towards being 'sweet' @ say 1400-2200

as in they are designed with these types of battles in mind

i would have to disagree with YOU, the inquisition books are not 'proper' codices lol

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/01/40k-news-where-has-inquisition-gone.html

**Vulkan_He'stan**

imperial guard to me seem to be good at
500pts then 1500-2000pts
as at low levels they can have sentinels as tanks and troops
then at higher levels they can field lemons and Valkyries ect