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I've got a tournament coming up, and I was thinking about ditching a raider squad and m RJBs to give my entire army nightshields, then trying to have a 36" sniper war where everyone else is gimped by 6". Thoughts?

I like it. Alot. DE are the perfect army to engage in that type of battle with because you have alot of 36"+ range shooting and the speed to be able to reposition away from static enemy forces to negate even 48" range weapons. Some mobile armies might give you momentary fits (think IG Air Cav) but even then they are mostly squadron and you have lots of independant targets. Assault armies will have absolute fits trying to close on you if you keep backing off from them and between the speed and range advantage, you should dominate medium range shooting armies (i.e. Sisters of Battle, Vulkan Marines). Its especially good against Melta heavy armies as the basic melta gun will never receive its bonus penetration dice against your Raiders and Ravagers.

What is the point value of the game?

1850.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/265152.page

That's my current list.

Ughh.... 1850 point games are the bane of DE!!!


I would drop the jetbikes an the warrior in the Archon Squad and give NS to the ravagers and Archon Boat.

OR

Drop the jetbikes and one incubi and pick up 2 X heamons with destructor and scissor hands, and have them chill in the wyche boats. Then Give the one of the HQs Crucible of mal!! seeing that the tourney is on the 16th New needs are going to be everywhere. After doing that you will have 10 points left to buy plasma grenades.

Arg....

Ok, that list wasn't exactly my list. My list is that + 2 Haemonculi, and everyone has plasma grenades. Each of the Haemonculi *are* on the wych boats.

LOL how about posting the correct list here.

I know many DE players are pretty fond of nightshields, and I had success with them prior to the new IG codex, but the gaming environment has changed substantially since then. Lots more vehicles and lots more long-ranged (48"+) AT firepower...I find many army lists outrange DE enough that you can't hang out and play the 36" game, because they can still hit you. In that case, you need the additional firepower and/or assault ability those extra points give you.

My current list:

Tweaked Archon
4x Incubi
1x Warrior
Raider

2x Haemonculi (Destructor/Scissorhands) that ride with wyches

6x Raider squads: 5x Warriors (1 Dark Lance) in a raider

2x Wych squads (6) with a Succubus/Agonizer + 2 Blasters, each in a raider

1x RJB squad of three, with 2 blasters

3x Ravagers with 3x Disintegrators each

That's 1850. I was thinking of dropping a troop choice and the RJBs to put in nightshields. Interestingly, the tournament organizer has ruled that Lelith + 2 wych squads can be taken in my army as allies, and I can use her as an HQ with the two wyches as my elites. I'm not sure what to think of that or what to do about it.

I think losing the RJBs isn't a bad option...if they're not providing ablative wounds for a bike-mounted archon, there are probably better things to spend points on.

Imo the RJB really need to go. At 95 points they are to expensive.... you might as well take another raider squad if you could.

I would go with my first suggestion.

I would drop the jetbikes and give NS to the ravagers and Archon Boat.

Thats 75 points. With the remaining 20 Points I would get a Crucible of Mal.

They are worth there weight in gold against SW and the New Nid codex. Also most judges rule that it whipes out the entire IG psyker squad if you happen to nail them.

I feel like the crucible is entirely too....unpredictable/reliable to spend points on.

What do you think about the Lelith note? IE, I can run an Archon + lelith.

I like the small Warrior squads in the raiders.

G

And I use those now.

But what about my ideas? Nightshields all around, and being able to stick Lelith into an kabal?

*EDIT* I should note that the store I'm going to be playing at has some *very* unique house-rules that I absolutely detest and disagree with...as in, I'll point it out in the rulebook and say, "So your house rule supercedes the 40k rulebook?" and they'll say, "Yes, don't argue with me." So I don't feel bad for taking this one if I indeed do.

What sort of house rules?

Clthomps wrote:Imo the RJB really need to go. At 95 points they are to expensive.... you might as well take another raider squad if you could.

But of course he already has 6 at the moment - and that's when you start bringing in minimized RJBs for additional dark matter and as an additional fast target.

Other then that, I do agree with Clthomps on pretty much everything he's said - Crucible will be an increasingly potent metagame option as more and more armies seem to be receiving optimized psyker options from GW nowadays (Eldar, IG, Space Puppies, the Nids, and even Librarians are making a fairly steady comeback in vanilla SM lists. Here's hoping for a good psyker option for Blood Angels.)

When it comes to Nightshields my opinion tends to match that of Grimaldi - I don't feel the potential gains outweigh the cost of not fielding two additional units. Also, considering your issues with coming to grips with making the Dark Lance effective do you really want to drop two lances and two blasters from the list? Dropping the RJBs to put N.Shields on certain vehicles, as Clthomps suggested, might be the optimum choice, as the purpose of the RBs is to hopefully pop a tank and absorb shooting that might otherwise go towards something like your Archon's Raider. Nightshields can also help protect the Raider so in some ways they are all serving the same purpose. Personally I believe the best defense is a good offense and thus tend to prefer more guns to more night shields, so in my lists guns generally win (With the caveat that I also run a gunboat style list - so 6" means less to me then it would to gunline Raiders).

As to your Lelith question...really? The TO is going to allow Lelith in a Kabal list? Does she count as one of your HQ slots and are you obligated to field an Archon as well? If you can field her and drop the Archon I'd probably definitely do it - if you'd have to drop the Haemies I probably wouldn't. If she's an HQ slot outside your FOC it gets interesting, but frankly dropping the RJBs to afford Lelith sounds fairly sweet (just recognize you'd have to drop the Shadowfield off your Archon).

Hrm....the best defense *is* a good offense. Maybe giving up DLs to get nightshields isn't so smart.

I'm just thinking that there are too many long-range weapons out there that would still wreck your day, even with Nightshields. The whole 4x6 table thing really takes away from the maneuver portion of 40k, and Dark Eldar really suffer for it.

Well, 48" and higher can edge me out in a long distance battle. That's Tau Railguns and anyone's missile launchers, right? I guess my aim was to try getting those missile launchers down to a 42" range, then sticking to the back of my table edge at 48", making the missiles miss, then moving up to 36" for my own shooting...

But there's a lot of "what ifs" in there, and the entire principle *does* violate one of the principles of warfare, "The best defense is a good offense." I ended up dropping the archon's entire unit, adding a third wych raider, and giving every raider squad a blaster. So as it stands I have:

9 vehicle mounted dark lances
6 troop mounted dark lances
14 blasters (12" dark lances)

For a total of 29 Dark lances. I'm not sure how this will work out...if I move up to blaster range, the dark lances can't fire. if I sit back at 36", the blasters don't have range. The only time I can really benefit from both is when their vehicles come up to me...I guess I'm looking for speeders, and extra strength utility for big nasties (MCs and such) that get close?

I'm not a big fan of blasters in squads with lances because, as you noted, situationally there's not a lot of chances for the squad to truly optimize its weapon loadout.

The best argument I ever saw in their favor was that after the Raider is destroyed it's not uncommon for the squad to have to move around a bit to claim objectives and if they move the blaster will allow them to still shoot a bit. I wasn't much sold on the logic.

If you dropped your Archon for an additional Wych squad did you also buy that Wych squad a Haemy?

Lascannons, Missile Launchers, and various heavier weapons can all reach out and touch you from 36" away, nightshields or no nightshields. Now that many people have recognized that melta isn't the best possible option and are embracing long-range anti-tank, the "sniper war" technique doesn't really seem all that powerful. Against a melta spammer, though, Nightshields are golden.

I also think blaster+ Dark lance is a waste of points.

I know darklance = awesome but in squads with blasters I usually take splinter cannon. since the squad is shooty I usually forgoe hth options ont he sybarite [if there even is one] and give him the terrorfex. Raider for the squad gets horrorfex, so the unit has a lot of anti infantry and pinning fire.

Honestly if you have a darklance in a squad most of the time the only other special weapon worthwhile is another darklance if you can get one

nightshields are good on:
1- your archon/dracon raider
or
2- your ravagers
or
3- Raiders that are not moving towards the enemy

otherwise your basically upping the cost of cardboard by 50% for your raiders that are moving towards the enemy, they will have ranged items that can get you.

In tourney play you may find all nightshield raiders more useful since a lot of weapons atm seem to be 36" or less with an emphasis on meltas and plasma. Against a player that knows your playing dark eldar honestly I would be surprised if they took a lot of melta or plasma.

If you can swap the reavers for Lelith, I'd say go for it.

As for blasters, I wouldn't say they are mandatory in DL squads, but they do provide a significant increase in potential firepower for a low cost.

The additional wych squad does not have a Haemy...but with a scissorhand/destructor, I'm in need of 45-50 points right?

As it is now:

Lelith
2x Haemonculi (Scissor/Destructor)
6x Raiders (Dark Lance / Blaster)
3x Wych squads (2x blasters, succubus/agonizer, plasma grenades)
3 Reaver Jetbikes (2 blasters)
3x Ravagers (Disintegrators)

I put blasters on every warrior squad and horrorfexes on the wych raiders and three warrior raiders.

Why are the haemonculi so important again? I thought I read somewhere that I should leave them in the raider if possible and have a mobile flamer with a variable AP. To date I've mostly been disembarking them with the wyches and tossing them into close combat, but they're a two wound IC that can be targeted...

The primary purpose of the Haemy is to boost your army's questionable anti-horde tech through his flamer. Second, his job is to be left out of assaults your Wyches go into in order to create yet another unit for the opposing player to have to worry about. Basically you want his thought process to go about like this;. 'do I try to shoot those Wyches, or the Raider they just got out of, it has a Dark Lance. Ugh, or do I shoot that lone IC with the flamer that can melt through an entire Tac squad in one shot - gawds I hate DE and I hate Dash even more for playing them. I'm going to wait outside with a dreadsock after the game and deal with this once and for all.'

You also need to debate whether you want your odd Wyche squad to be Lelith's retinue or not. The pros of the retinue are Lelith will be protected within it and will also be able to choose that retinue's drug option so depending what army and battle tyoe you face you can custom control the Wych squad's drug option. The cons are that you won't be able to split her off to go fight stuff on her own and also that without a retinue, since she can't buy a CDD, she won't get drugs. I'd advocate giving her the squad as a retinue

Unless the house rules allow Lilith to be taken with a kabol you can't take her unless you run a wych cult. I'mm running a list with Vect, 7 raiders with horror fexes & night shields, and 3 ravagers with nightshields this weekend at the Conquest NW GT. I'll let you know if the night shields are worth it, as I could ditch them and purchase a 3rd wych squad instead. However 20 dark lances, 11 blasters, and 6 disentigrators should be enough at 2000 points. Or at least that is what I hope.

Night shields are also more of a psycological weapon, as they make players judge distance they arn't used to. When I play my salamanders I have a very good idea where my 24" multi melta range is. However, I am no where near as good with a guestimate of an 18 inch range.

Regarding Lelith: The more games I've played with a wych cult the more I like using an Arctite with combat drugs instead of Lelith. An Archite can be given a punisher, T helm, combat drugs & shadowfield & then join a scoring wych squad but leave if it if they need to go attack something else. Also, Leilith is not listed as having the inv dodge once her sdhadowfield goes, sometimes having a second inv save has come in handy if the shadowfield gets taken down.

The house rule *did* allow Lelith to be taken with a Kabal, with the requirement that two wych squads be present. I ran with it.

I just got home from the tournament; I took 1st place and brought home a NIB Space Hulk set.

I think I like the Dark Lance/Blaster combination in the warrior squads. It added 6 lance weapons to my list, and in two of my games, I had speeders or deep striking dreadnoughts/drop pods to dump those blaster hits onto. Terrorfexes didn't do a whole lot until game three when they pinned two firewarrior squads.

All in all, for this tournament I played a 36" sniper army. I fought space wolves twice, and tau once. Reaver Jetbikes dove into the Long Fangs with +1 strength and did their job. I gleefully insta-killed some broadside battlesuits with dark lances. I also insta-killed a wolf-lord guy who didn't have EW with a dark lance.

I'll modify this list a bit - Lelith didn't impress me (mostly because my wyches didn't really mix it up in combat today) and this was the one time I'd get to see her, so it will go back to my Archon/Kabal. If I can, I think I *really* like the blaster/dark lance thing - especially when my whole army is doing a Turn1 24" move, and turn2 gives me 12 more lances in range (blasters) than I had at 36". Obviously, more play-testing is required.

Awesome to hear you took first, congrats. I'm sad to hear Lelith didn't do much, she really is a beast of a IC considering her points and has always served me well when I fielded her. Oh well, no need to get the Wyches hand's dirty if dark matter can solve the problem - and it can solve most problems.

Lelith in game 1: She didn't get out of her transport. I was dark lancing the space puppies to death.

Lelith in game 2: She didn't get out of her transport. I was dark lancing the space puppies to death, and had dreadnoughts raining on me that my wych boats were blastering - the only troops on the ground were the Wolf lord dude and a huge squad of wolves, and the disintegrators handled that - I couldn't peel open the land raider or razorback the whole game to get an assault, and by the end of the game when he got out voluntarily, everything else was dead, so they absorbed disintegrators, lances, blasters...

Lelith in game 3: (against Tau) A railgun opened up her transport on turn1 and dumped her and the wyches onto the ground on my back table edge. Tactical mistake, but I didn't drop her and the wyches into an empty raider because the Tau were getting mulched across the board. Turn2, a suit team deep-struck behind Lelith, flamered the wyches, caused a couple casualties, and they failed leadership.....and were within 6" of the suits so ended up running of the board. At the end of the game, I lost my RJBs, a transport, Lelith's transport, and Lelith and the wyches in exchange for tabling my opponent.

So no...not a stellar Lelith showing.

I've found about 70% of my games don't really require assault...as you've noticed, you can handle most stuff through superior firepower if you have the right tools. Still, occasionally you get stuck in a situation where there's a lot of tough troops suddenly appearing up close (drop pods), a footslogging SAFH or a large assaulty horde that will take too long to whittle down, and that's where having that powerful assaulty squad or two really comes in handy. That, or decisively clearing off the few survivors on an objective to ensure the massacre win.

Sounds like your games never really required it, and you learned a valuable lesson in the last game. Didn't really hurt you to have her, but it could have been invaluable against the right opponent.