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So, how far does one take the wobbly model rule?

Here's a situation that happened the other day. Daemon Prince Deep Strikes, scatters, and the scatter places him atop this wreck. Of course, the model can't stand up at ALL, it'll just slide off. Can you place a model somewhere that it can't stand?

BRB, p13, Wobbly Model Rule wrote:Sometimes you find that a particular piece of terrain makes it hard to place a model exactly where you want it. If you delicately balance it in place, it's very likely to fall.....In cases like this we find it perfectly acceptable to leave the model in a safer position, as long as both players have agreed and know it's actual location. If later on your enemy is considering shooting at the model, you will have to hold it back in the proper place so that he can check line of sight. Of course, if you prefer things to be completely clear and flat, just stick to simple, flat terrain!

So, how far does this go? Can we put the model there, because the terrain would make it 'unstable', or do we say that, since the model can't balance there in ANY case, the Wobbly Model Rule does not apply?

Also be aware that wrecked vehicles 'count as' difficult terrain. Does this mean the model placement doesn't matter?
Also also, what happens if he can't go there, in his deep strike? You only roll on the Mishap table if you hit Impassable terrain. But nowhere does anything talk about Impassable terrain in this situation!

If we say it CAN go there, consider the completely professional diagram below. In example A, if the Wobbly Model Rule affects every situation, my Bloodthirster can stand on this Incredibly Tall Spike terrain. Hell, my LAND RAIDER could sit up there all day. It doesn't matter that it can't actually balance there.

In example B, the bloodthirster can only fit a little bit onto the clifftop to assault the Squat. Do we say that he CAN assault, the model is simply wobbly, and prop him up with dice? Or can he not assault at all?



People, to your rulebooks......

ArbitorIan wrote:In example B, the bloodthirster can only fit a little bit onto the clifftop to assault the Squat. Do we say that he CAN assault, the model is simply wobbly, and prop him up with dice? Or can he not assault at all?

No. Everyone knows only Tyranids can balance off a cliff to eat squats with nothing but dice and deus ex machina holding them up. Silly Blood Thirster

Wobbly model syndrom means put a marker where it should be if its going to fall over and move it some where safe.

If you agree that the land raider is clear, difficult or dangerous terrain then he can be there. In the case of the cliff thats clearly impassible vertical terrain and he can't be placed there (mishap).

Tri wrote:Wobbly model syndrom means put a marker where it should be if its going to fall over and move it some where safe.

If you agree that the land raider is clear, difficult or dangerous terrain then he can be there. In the case of the cliff thats clearly impassible vertical terrain and he can't be placed there (mishap).

Ok, so how about an area of standing stones (difficult area terrain) which features a great big spike in the middle. You're saying that, since this is area terrain, I can balance my Bloodthirster on the top of the spike, but if the spike is on it's own, I can't?

Just by making something area terrain, do we therefore say you can stand on any part of it, even if the model can't balance there?

ArbitorIan wrote:
Ok, so how about an area of standing stones (difficult area terrain) which features a great big spike in the middle. You're saying that, since this is area terrain, I can balance my Bloodthirster on the top of the spike, but if the spike is on it's own, I can't?

Just by making something area terrain, do we therefore say you can stand on any part of it, even if the model can't balance there?

... its terrain you debate all this before the game. If you have a spike and you say this is difficult terrain then that's what it is. Rule of thumb i use when classifying things is does it need more then 3-4" of vertical movement to get a model up (/down) there then its impassible vertical terrain and you've got to go round.

Biggest problem is terrain is subjective. You think its ok and your friend think its ok ... well that's fine, it works that way. Ether of you disagree then you've got to talk it over.

Page 13. Call out box in the bottom corner offers GWs suggestion. I find this an acceptable solution so that is how I play it. If you are playing in a tournament and the exact position is critical for your next move then I suggest setting a die to mark the front of the baseor a paper scrap with a mark and the players agreeing that the mark on the paper is either the center of the base or the front of the base. Then next turn measure from the mark and adjust. In your opponents shooting phase you may have to hold the model in place till they get Line of Site but after that the marker should do.

As a note about the LR wreck above...there's not technically anything that specifies a tank must be turned upside down to represent being wrecked. One could simply use the green wreck marker, a die turned up to 5, cotton smoke/fire effect, pull a turret off, use a separate "wreckage" piece of terrain, or simply remember. In any of those cases, I doubt a DP would have trouble standing on the flat top of it.

I would like to ask if there are any rules about deep-striking into difficult terrain?

Leigen_Zero wrote:I would like to ask if there are any rules about deep-striking into difficult terrain?

you treat it as dangerous terrain

Leigen_Zero wrote:I would like to ask if there are any rules about deep-striking into difficult terrain?

Yes...there is an entire section in the BGB about it, which includes the Wonderful Mishap Table

Oddly enough, it's found in the same place as the Deep Strike rules!

Leigen_Zero wrote:I would like to ask if there are any rules about deep-striking into difficult terrain?

Yup, it's just counts as dangerous terrain.

So our question (the DS part of it anyway) is - can you place a model in difficult/dangerous (area) terrain, in a position where it could not possibly stand up, then claim Wobbly Model Rule?

ArbitorIan wrote:

Leigen_Zero wrote:I would like to ask if there are any rules about deep-striking into difficult terrain?

Yup, it's just counts as dangerous terrain.

So our question (the DS part of it anyway) is - can you place a model in difficult/dangerous (area) terrain, in a position where it could not possibly stand up, then claim Wobbly Model Rule?

and the answer is yes. No advantage i can see since the model does every thing from the marked point and is replace when ever checking anything (like LOS).

Tri wrote:

ArbitorIan wrote:

Leigen_Zero wrote:I would like to ask if there are any rules about deep-striking into difficult terrain?

Yup, it's just counts as dangerous terrain.

So our question (the DS part of it anyway) is - can you place a model in difficult/dangerous (area) terrain, in a position where it could not possibly stand up, then claim Wobbly Model Rule?

and the answer is yes. No advantage i can see since the model does every thing from the marked point and is replace when ever checking anything (like LOS).

Fantastic. New professional diagram, entitled 'Places I Can Legally Place My Bloodthirster'.



The advantage is, the more models you have hidden from your enemy, the more likely he is to forget about shooting them when it comes to his turn...

I like it, but I feel like the 'with your opponent's permission' part of the Wobbly Model Syndrome rules curtails the third placement.

Though it does remind me of GBF's wall-running Bloodletter.

Now, if your bloodletter was crouching, it would look like a gargoyle. Paint it the same colour as your building and I'll bet no one shoots it.

Third one he would be place standing at the base of the ruins. Should also be noted you must have enough movement to get into those locations.

Is this a problem? When I play if my opponent has a model, especially a heavily converted or nicely painted one, I just tell him I have no problem with him marking where the center of the model will be with a small die. If there is any question as to whether or not it can be assaulted/shot we measure from where the base would be. It isn't rocket science to figure out the circumference of a 25, 40 or 60 mm base. I'd rather do that than run the risk of it falling over and breaking or getting scratched.

Didn't i read somewher that if you deep stirke onto difficult terrain you have to take a dangerous terrain test or suffer a mishap? or am i making this up?

Praxiss wrote:Didn't i read somewher that if you deep stirke onto difficult terrain you have to take a dangerous terrain test or suffer a mishap? or am i making this up?

I've cover this but difficult terrain is treated as dangerous. Impassible terrain missing the board and other such cause a roll on the mishap table.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:Is this a problem? When I play if my opponent has a model, especially a heavily converted or nicely painted one, I just tell him I have no problem with him marking where the center of the model will be with a small die. If there is any question as to whether or not it can be assaulted/shot we measure from where the base would be. It isn't rocket science to figure out the circumference of a 25, 40 or 60 mm base. I'd rather do that than run the risk of it falling over and breaking or getting scratched.

It's true, we play with a bit of leeway, too. I'm just wondering what the RAW is...

This also brings up the situation in example B of the OP. A high point is full of models. I wish to charge the models. How much of my base must fit on the high point? If I only fir 5mm of my base on, can I then say 'Wobbly Model Rule' and he counts as standing there.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thinking about this, is the solution that....

THE MODEL MUST BE ABLE TO STAND THERE IN SOME WAY (albeit unsteadily) before the Wobbly Model Rule comes into place? You can then remove it, and use the Wobbly Model Rule to save your model from being bumped over, but crucially, it must be capable of balancing there on it's own, before the WMR can be used.

Is that a good reading?

I generally use this rule if a top heavy model is trying to stand on a rubbled area or a slope (those 2x2 tables section hills are a nightmare) I don't want my carefully painted models falling over and chipping with their arms falling off all the time.

Also its good when entering ruins, I often place models on a more easily accessible floor and say to the opponent "there on x floor, in the same formation as they are now" and iv'e never had complaints from that and iv'e seen more people using that now (as long as there is nothing on the floor where your "ghost" squad is, then it might get confusing)

Another example would be when my Dark Reapers take position in a ruin that is 2 foot tall and stand near an edge, in the FLGS i don't want kids knocking the tables and seeing my reapers plummet to their doom, so i place a spare unpainted reaper there to act as a marker (or blue-tac them down if i have any on me)

With regards to odd locations, then use common sense, if both players agree then its acceptable for that model to be there, if you opponent disagrees then you can't place the model there, simple as that.

yeah,
The problem was that I placed the DP near the LandRaider and rolled for scatter, this placed him ontop of the land raider in difficult terrain where he slided along and off.
Does the fact that the model can't stay there (without blue tac!) make it Impassable?

In the game we turned the tank back to the correct way up and placed the DP who found grip on the heavy bolters and he took his dangerous terrain test... 1min later the DP made a run move off the LandRaider...

In Ians example.
If the BloodThirster is placed next to the fence(/trees/ruins) but then scatters 3" onto the top of the fence(/trees/ruins) but can't be balanced there does that make it a impassable mishap? I would find that a bit harsh! They are not impassable terrain.

Also I can see a situation happen when the bloodthirster needs to be placed on the fence to get his assault.
0"----------------11"-Fence-12"-----------18"
Because he can't be placed on the difficult terrain Fence;
Should his movement be reduced to 11" and deny the assault?
or
Should the player claim WMR to enable the assault?

PAnic...

For slopes (hill slopes or wrecked vehicle underbelly slopes) class it as difficult, i imagine a smaller model could easily stand there without slipping so the prince can arrive there IMO (my old metal wraithlord wont stand on certain slopes without sliding down, but you wouldn't argue that i can't walk up a hill that a plastic wraithlord can with ease)

Also turning over the land raider is an option, you could easily just remove the weapons or use some cotton wool "smoke" to show its destroyed. If it balances one way its a bit unfair that it doesn't balance the other. Considering its a choice of how to deal with the wrecked vehicle... on a side note what the hell hit that LR so hard if flew into the air, did a backflip, and landed back where it was.

The terrain is only impassable if a) you agree it is and b) the rules already tell you it is impassable.

A wrecked LR actually goes from being Impassable to all models to Dangerous and Difficult terrain.

Also I can see a situation happen when the bloodthirster needs to be placed on the fence to get his assault.
0"----------------11"-Fence-12"-----------18"
Because he can't be placed on the difficult terrain Fence;
Should his movement be reduced to 11" and deny the assault?
or
Should the player claim WMR to enable the assault?

We try to discus this before the game starts. A fence like that would require infantry to take a difficult terrain test to cross it (they get slowed down). If a flying Bloodthirster wants to actually land on that spot, sure go ahead and take a dangerous terrain test. Then use a counter to represent the model being there. Same would apply for a treetop.