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I was thinking that IG snipers in units should be able to shot at different targets that their units. What do yo uguys think? Perpahs that coming at a price of more expensive sniper rifles?

And why just IG snipers?

actually no, not just IG snipers.. its just seems daft that snipers being specialized guys always have to shoot at the same target than their unit..

I'll support this, even though i think most snipers are a waste of points.

(IG sniper BS3, hits 1/2 the time, wounds on 1/2 of those = 1/4 wounds per turn, chances are it wont rend so the enemy will get a save and reduce that 1/4 further.)

Shas'O Dorian wrote:I'll support this, even though i think most snipers are a waste of points.

(IG sniper BS3, hits 1/2 the time, wounds on 1/2 of those = 1/4 wounds per turn, chances are it wont rend so the enemy will get a save and reduce that 1/4 further.)

Ratlings are BS4

I think snipers should be able to target any individual model they have line of sight to - and take a bonus/penalty to the roll to hit based on how far away they are. I think this fits with what snipers would try to do.

I don't think snipers in the same unit should be allowed to shoot at seperate units though. Besides, why would you want to do that anyway? Focused fire is the best way to get hits.

I have always thought that snipers, being highly trained specialts, should have BS5 tbh.

apwill4765 wrote:

Shas'O Dorian wrote:I'll support this, even though i think most snipers are a waste of points.

(IG sniper BS3, hits 1/2 the time, wounds on 1/2 of those = 1/4 wounds per turn, chances are it wont rend so the enemy will get a save and reduce that 1/4 further.)

Ratlings are BS4

Ah indeed, i thought guardsmen could take sniper rifles as well but its beside the point.

Rather than a 1/4 chance to wound you have a 1/3 chance to wound. And even then only about 1/10 shots will be rending. Not nearly enough to be effective to me.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:I'll support this, even though i think most snipers are a waste of points.

Eldar Pathfinders, 5/6 to hit counts as AP1, so a few of your hits will be AP1, they're one of the most value for points unit I've ever come across, espesially agains high toughness/monstrous creatures.

Besides, don't sniper weapons always hit on a 2+, regardless of BS?

On Topic, I would agree, but thats what assassins are for.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:I'll support this, even though i think most snipers are a waste of points.

(IG sniper BS3, hits 1/2 the time, wounds on 1/2 of those = 1/4 wounds per turn, chances are it wont rend so the enemy will get a save and reduce that 1/4 further.)

What snipers normally give you is more long range shooting where you would normally not find it, or else more long range shooting in general. Pathfinders and Scouts are Troop, Ratlings in Elite etc.

Snipers are nice units and of course SOMEDAY you can shoot at a C'tan. Pathfinders took out my Rhino once. Of course they still got ass-munched when the squad walked up and boltered them anyway.

Frankly, to really compare IG snipers to the other races we need one of three things:

A) Veteran Sniper Teams--6 members, 3x 2 Man teams with the option to upgrade to a heavier anti-material weapon(ala Rail Rifles) but losing their ability to infiltrate.
B) ^
C)^^

Pretty much that Ratlings should be purchased as attachments for a squad, not as a squad by themselves.

If we are discussing it, there are six of them they can carry ONE heavy weapon. There is even that guy.

Ratlings are fine just watch out for flamers. *POOOSH* no more Ratlings.

Snipers need a higher BS in the Guard. BS3 for just about all of them (excluding Ratlings) makes them not very valuable. Though I do take them in loo of Grenade Launchers, which I don't find particularly useful in my squads, mostly just do to the short range and static nature of my units. When I want something to reach out 24" I'll take a Plasma Gun, which can also double tap at shorter ranges. Yeah, they're vulnerable to Get's Hot, but they're also Super Effective.

A longer ranged anti-material weapon, such as suggested above, would be nice, something in a Heavy Weapons squad configuration. Say, S7 AP1? Not highly effective against badder vehicles, but against heavy infantry and lighter armor it would work great!

So v. a Rhino it would punch right through and assure a kill, or knock down Terminators. But against heavier armor like Predators and Chimeras, it generally lacks killing power. AP2 or AP3 would also be permissive, as it would not grant the +1 on the Vehicle Damage Table.

I like this idea...'cos snipers (especially IG ones) look awesome ;D

Admittedly, I got the idea from my playthrough of Mass Effect 2 with the 'Widow' sniper rifle.

But it'd be a helluva fun piece of kit to model.

Dastardly Dave wrote:

Shas'O Dorian wrote:I'll support this, even though i think most snipers are a waste of points.

Eldar Pathfinders, 5/6 to hit counts as AP1, so a few of your hits will be AP1, they're one of the most value for points unit I've ever come across, espesially agains high toughness/monstrous creatures.

Besides, don't sniper weapons always hit on a 2+, regardless of BS?

On Topic, I would agree, but thats what assassins are for.

The topic was on IG snipers so that's what I was referring to. I think pathfinders are a good option because Ive seen them be effective several times.

No Snipers hit with BS, they USED to hit on 2's now Pg 31 does not mention any bonuses or special rules about hitting so there aren't any.

Skinnattittar wrote:Snipers need a higher BS in the Guard. BS3 for just about all of them (excluding Ratlings) makes them not very valuable. Though I do take them in loo of Grenade Launchers, which I don't find particularly useful in my squads, mostly just do to the short range and static nature of my units. When I want something to reach out 24" I'll take a Plasma Gun, which can also double tap at shorter ranges. Yeah, they're vulnerable to Get's Hot, but they're also Super Effective.

A longer ranged anti-material weapon, such as suggested above, would be nice, something in a Heavy Weapons squad configuration. Say, S7 AP1? Not highly effective against badder vehicles, but against heavy infantry and lighter armor it would work great!

So v. a Rhino it would punch right through and assure a kill, or knock down Terminators. But against heavier armor like Predators and Chimeras, it generally lacks killing power. AP2 or AP3 would also be permissive, as it would not grant the +1 on the Vehicle Damage Table.

So you basically want Plasma Guns that don't have the Get's Hot Rule, with a longer range..

Shas'O Dorian wrote:

Dastardly Dave wrote:

Shas'O Dorian wrote:I'll support this, even though i think most snipers are a waste of points.

Eldar Pathfinders, 5/6 to hit counts as AP1, so a few of your hits will be AP1, they're one of the most value for points unit I've ever come across, espesially agains high toughness/monstrous creatures.

Besides, don't sniper weapons always hit on a 2+, regardless of BS?

On Topic, I would agree, but thats what assassins are for.

The topic was on IG snipers so that's what I was referring to. I think pathfinders are a good option because Ive seen them be effective several times.

No Snipers hit with BS, they USED to hit on 2's now Pg 31 does not mention any bonuses or special rules about hitting so there aren't any.

Pathfinders, frankly, are completely different from Guard snipers and Eldar Pathfinders/Rangers.

They're a suppression unit, through and through, that can be upgraded with Rail Rifles for even more damage and taking on heavier armored targets.

Kanluwen wrote:
They're a suppression unit, through and through, that can be upgraded with Rail Rifles for even more damage and taking on heavier armored targets.

And honestly I don't know why people take rail rifles for them. I find it much better to use them to dump markerlights on units.

Che-Vito wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:Snipers need a higher BS in the Guard. BS3 for just about all of them (excluding Ratlings) makes them not very valuable. Though I do take them in loo of Grenade Launchers, which I don't find particularly useful in my squads, mostly just do to the short range and static nature of my units. When I want something to reach out 24" I'll take a Plasma Gun, which can also double tap at shorter ranges. Yeah, they're vulnerable to Get's Hot, but they're also Super Effective.
A longer ranged anti-material weapon, such as suggested above, would be nice, something in a Heavy Weapons squad configuration. Say, S7 AP1? Not highly effective against badder vehicles, but against heavy infantry and lighter armor it would work great!
So v. a Rhino it would punch right through and assure a kill, or knock down Terminators. But against heavier armor like Predators and Chimeras, it generally lacks killing power. AP2 or AP3 would also be permissive, as it would not grant the +1 on the Vehicle Damage Table.

So you basically want Plasma Guns that don't have the Get's Hot Rule, with a longer range..

No, I was thinking something like an Autocannon sniper rifle with AP rounds. It would be R48 Heavy 1. So calm down, Mr. Guard-Hater.

@ Dorian : I think most Tau players don't know how to play Tau, so I agree with you.

Skinnattittar wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:Snipers need a higher BS in the Guard. BS3 for just about all of them (excluding Ratlings) makes them not very valuable. Though I do take them in loo of Grenade Launchers, which I don't find particularly useful in my squads, mostly just do to the short range and static nature of my units. When I want something to reach out 24" I'll take a Plasma Gun, which can also double tap at shorter ranges. Yeah, they're vulnerable to Get's Hot, but they're also Super Effective.
A longer ranged anti-material weapon, such as suggested above, would be nice, something in a Heavy Weapons squad configuration. Say, S7 AP1? Not highly effective against badder vehicles, but against heavy infantry and lighter armor it would work great!
So v. a Rhino it would punch right through and assure a kill, or knock down Terminators. But against heavier armor like Predators and Chimeras, it generally lacks killing power. AP2 or AP3 would also be permissive, as it would not grant the +1 on the Vehicle Damage Table.

So you basically want Plasma Guns that don't have the Get's Hot Rule, with a longer range..

No, I was thinking something like an Autocannon sniper rifle with AP rounds. It would be R48 Heavy 1. So calm down, Mr. Guard-Hater.

@ Dorian : I think most Tau players don't know how to play Tau, so I agree with you.

It is the "Heavy" piece that makes the big difference there, you needed to clarify that piece! Although Guard snipers have a range of 36 for the most part...48 is Lascannon range...a bit overpowered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is what seems pretty fair to me:
IG Marksmen Team
1-6 Marksmen
BS4 S3 T3 I3 W1 A1 +5
S7 Ap1 36" Heavy 1

Can take Camo Cloaks +5 per model (I believe that is the cost)
1 Marksmen may be upgraded to a Spotter at a cost of +3 points

Spotter: Replaces weapon with a Laspistol, allows 1 To Hit reroll per shooting phase
Disappear: If unit is at 25% strength and not falling back, in assault, and it is the controlling players turn...the player may elect to remove the unit from the board without counting it as a casualty for KP/VP purposes.

Cost: 12 points per model. (my reasoning? Better stats than a Fire Warrior except for the Armor save, option for Cloaks. Weapon effective against MEQ and light vehicles, unit can be incredibly effective in cover.)

Comments? Concerns? Esoteric speculations?

Well, since Sniper Rifles are already Heavy 1, I didn't think it needed clarifying.... what did you think? A S7 AP1 Sniper Rifle with Assault 3? Seems kinda ridiculous to even think that though....

R48 is also in Autocannon and Missile Launcher range. It is weaker than a Missile Launcher (not to mention no option to use a blast weapon) and has fewer shots than an Autocannon. So whatever the price is, that should be considered. Disappear seems too strange for normal Guard, and is more of a Catachan thing (snipers don't run from a battlefield FYI), but I do think it's a neat rule. I like the Spotter idea, but I think they should be HW teams, the built in spotter would quantify the increased BS (for fluff reasons). I would make it as either a replacement HW option for squads, or kept special to HW Squads.

Also, comparing them to Fire Warriors doesn't work. You shouldn't even compate Fire Warriors to Fire Warriors.

Skinnattittar wrote:Well, since Sniper Rifles are already Heavy 1, I didn't think it needed clarifying.... what did you think? A S7 AP1 Sniper Rifle with Assault 3? Seems kinda ridiculous to even think that though....

R48 is also in Autocannon and Missile Launcher range. It is weaker than a Missile Launcher (not to mention no option to use a blast weapon) and has fewer shots than an Autocannon. So whatever the price is, that should be considered. Disappear seems too strange for normal Guard, and is more of a Catachan thing (snipers don't run from a battlefield FYI), but I do think it's a neat rule. I like the Spotter idea, but I think they should be HW teams, the built in spotter would quantify the increased BS (for fluff reasons). I would make it as either a replacement HW option for squads, or kept special to HW Squads.

Also, comparing them to Fire Warriors doesn't work. You shouldn't even compate Fire Warriors to Fire Warriors.

Yes, but sniper rifles are usually Strength X, which you did not list. Range 48" seems to much, although range 36" Pinning...and losing Disappear for the currently listed price sounds good to me. I was thinking Elites, or Heavy Weapon Squads...Ratlings are Elites.

Disappear isn't from the snipers "running" (which for KP purposes would make them count), but rather repositioning. Establishing a new position is not something that I would find feasible within the scope of 40k game.

The idea of the Spotter upgrade is that it IS optional, I like the idea of the guys being crackshot vets...and requiring a spotter would limit the ability to buy a lone sniper (think 500 point games here.)

I was comparing them to Fire Warriors for price justification. Here are the revised stats:

IG Marksmen Team
Elites Slot
1-6 Marksmen
BS4 S3 T3 I3 W1 A1 +5
S7 Ap1 36" Heavy 1 Pinning

Can take Camo Cloaks +5 per model (I believe that is the cost)
1 Marksmen may be upgraded to a Spotter at a cost of +3 points

Spotter: Replaces weapon with a Laspistol, allows 1 To Hit reroll per shooting phase for the squad
Disappear: If unit is at least 25% strength and not falling back, or in assault, and it is the controlling players turn...the player may elect to remove the unit from the board without counting it as a casualty for KP/VP purposes.

Cost: 12 points per model

I like this general idea, but am not sure about the proposed stats.

When I saw the last statline, I thought, comparing them with Lootas for price reasons could be nice.

Lootas are worse shots, have weaker armor, lack AP1 and have lower Initative - on the other hand, they get W3 shots at 48", have 2 CC attacks and higher toughness.

I'm not sure how to weigh those criteria, but those guys cost 15pts per model. I think that would be more of an appropiate price for this IG sniper team, especially because of BS4 and AP1 all the time. They can take out Predators with one shot!

In all honesty, if they are going to be acting as a team, I would say make them 25ppm. Since IG has only one thing in Elites worth taking at the moment, putting these guys there too wouldn't be such a bad idea. So they should be a squad that can divide themselves up into their respective teams. At the beginning of the game they must choose to either be acting independently or attached to another infantry Guard unit from HW or Troops. If they are attached to another unit, they do not count as another Kill Point. They may not attach at any time during the game, but may attach to other units between games.

IG Sniper Team:
BS4 WS3 S3 T3 W2 I3 A2 Ld8 Sv5+
Composition: 1-5 Teams
Unit Type: Infantry
Wargear: Laspistols and Autorifle
Special Rules: Infiltrate, Scout, Stealth, Move Through Cover, Tank Hunters
Autorifle: R48 S7 AP3 Heavy 1

@Witzkatz : Before they did not have very good chances of taking out Predators in one shot, they would have to roll a 6 for armor penetration then another 6 on the VDT. With the +1 for AP1 they could get a Wreaked result. Now, under my proposal, they would still need at least a 5 to make it a glancing hit, and a 6 would penetrate, but they will be rolling as normal on the VDT.

@ Che-Vito : How is R48 overpowered? Most of the Guard heavy weapons are R48.... actually only the Heavy Bolter isn't, all the others are.... If anything, the Sniper Rifle is the longest ranged assault weapon and should be bumped down to 24", while the Melta is the shortest ranged and should be bumped up to 24", if we're going to go by the Laws of Differences. But I would never actually suggest either scenario.

Skinnattittar wrote:In all honesty, if they are going to be acting as a team, I would say make them 25ppm. Since IG has only one thing in Elites worth taking at the moment, putting these guys there too wouldn't be such a bad idea. So they should be a squad that can divide themselves up into their respective teams. At the beginning of the game they must choose to either be acting independently or attached to another infantry Guard unit from HW or Troops. If they are attached to another unit, they do not count as another Kill Point. They may not attach at any time during the game, but may attach to other units between games.

IG Sniper Team:
BS4 WS3 S3 T3 W2 I3 A2 Ld8 Sv5+
Composition: 1-5 Teams
Unit Type: Infantry
Wargear: Laspistols and Autorifle
Special Rules: Infiltrate, Scout, Stealth, Move Through Cover, Tank Hunters
Autorifle: R48 S7 AP3 Heavy 1

@Witzkatz : Before they did not have very good chances of taking out Predators in one shot, they would have to roll a 6 for armor penetration then another 6 on the VDT. With the +1 for AP1 they could get a Wreaked result. Now, under my proposal, they would still need at least a 5 to make it a glancing hit, and a 6 would penetrate, but they will be rolling as normal on the VDT.

@ Che-Vito : How is R48 overpowered? Most of the Guard heavy weapons are R48.... actually only the Heavy Bolter isn't, all the others are.... If anything, the Sniper Rifle is the longest ranged assault weapon and should be bumped down to 24", while the Melta is the shortest ranged and should be bumped up to 24", if we're going to go by the Laws of Differences. But I would never actually suggest either scenario.

Whoa Mr. USR...chill.

What you are running would be priced at at least 30 points per squad. 5 USR, in addition to what is effectively a Rail Rifle with a longer range? (Which in my mind breaks the fluff). Unless we're talking about a 2-man crewed weapon...and then this isn't as much of a "sniper" as a "crewed large caliber rifle".

He did say it was essentially an autocannon with a scope and a bolt action...

Y'know, much like the current anti-material rifles they use?

all i really wish snipers had was a higher ap...i mean AP 6 for a sniper....

Kanluwen wrote:He did say it was essentially an autocannon with a scope and a bolt action...

Y'know, much like the current anti-material rifles they use?

Running around with an Autocannon with a scope and bolt action, hardly qualifies a unit to earn Infiltrate, Stealh, and Scout.

Che-Vito wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:He did say it was essentially an autocannon with a scope and a bolt action...

Y'know, much like the current anti-material rifles they use?

Running around with an Autocannon with a scope and bolt action, hardly qualifies a unit to earn Infiltrate, Stealh, and Scout.

...
Have you seen the kind of kit most Special Forces run with today?
A stripped down autocannon, with a scope wouldn't at all slow down a group that's running infiltration.

And hey, look at Space Marine Scouts.
Running around with a Missile Launcher, Bolters, and Chainswords hardly qualifies a unit to earn Infiltration and Scouting.

But then, another thing you failed to realize is the original suggestion was for the anti-material rifle to be a purchasable upgrade for a standard Scout-Sniper unit.