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Hi everyone

A recent thread started some interesting discussion on disclosure and transparency. The BRB is clear in that it doesn't like surprises and you are entitled to see your enemies list, to know his commanders powers and wargear and to know where everyone rides. In the interest of perfect fairness this is important and is the only way that makes sense in large scale tournament play. I do not like to play this way.

I don't want to know what's in that rhino until I shoot it out. I don't want to know what that psycher has ready in his head until it's happening. Does he have enough troops on the board or should I expect some friends to drop in later?

I think it makes the game more challenging to not know where everything is. If my enemy tells me he has a couple of outflanking nasties it is a no brainer to stay away from the edges. If he doesn't have to say I will have to assess what's on the board, his tactics and why he's currently not too concerned about my long fangs popping off missiles from the corner.

I'll still play WYSIWYG, because you can't really sneak a powerfist into combat. Divulging everything at the start takes away from the fun. The look on the opponents face when the rhino he has been desperately trying to get off an objective is actually empty. The look on my face when the chimera my hormagaunts have been trying to glance to death finally crumbles to reveal the flamer vet squad. It allows ruse de guerre. it eliminates the simple game plan. It make the game more interesting, tactical and therefore, fun.

All my own opinion of course. What say you, Dakkites? Could the underdog, transport light races try to balance with some ninja flanking? Would it unbalance the game too much? Would you pay more for a tournament-legal anti-intelligence rhino of mystery?

I'd say yes, this would be very nice for several reasons:

1st. Realism; Yes, the game isnt meant to be the most realistic thing on the market, but things like this just make sense in some respects.

2nd. As mentioned, it would lend an air of unpredictability to the game, which is Possibly a good thing.


Though, it should be taken into consideration by others before you start suggesting this to everyone you play with.

I agree that not knowing what is to come until it appears makes you think on your feet and makes for a much more tactical game, so long as everything is "marked" on your roster with what its in or what its going to do to come on so you cant say things like "oh look what you just opened up, a big can of my turn to kick your ass" elite squad, even though it should have been the softy softy space marine tac squad that you "put" in it at the start,
So yes i agree that it makes a better game, As you would know what you can see and have seen from inteligence but you wouldn't know what the Pskyer xyz7896279598 was taught in pskyer training, or exactly what other forces were on route to the site but didn't arrive before the fight began
sorry for the big block of writing

I agree it would be nice, whilst I also think that it's something that can be agreed upon beforehand. It sucks to play someone who refuses to show you their list in a less-than-friendly manner.

If both players agree then thats fine.
If GW comes out with upgrades allowing you to not divulge the exact content of said transports then fine.

I like the idea if its done in a fair way (i don't have many transports and everyone knows what powers my Farseer always takes)

Jakkarra wrote:1st. Realism; Yes, the game isnt meant to be the most realistic thing on the market, but things like this just make sense in some respects.

Are you in the army/navy/armed forces?

From what I have seen, pretty much every single person who has been in the armed forces claims that not knowing what is in what is about as Unrealistic as it gets.

Gwar! wrote:

Jakkarra wrote:1st. Realism; Yes, the game isnt meant to be the most realistic thing on the market, but things like this just make sense in some respects.

Are you in the army/navy/armed forces?

From what I have seen, pretty much every single person who has been in the armed forces claims that not knowing what is in what is about as Unrealistic as it gets.

It depends on the army intelligence, would orks try to work out what is where are would they just rather have a party and go hit things?
It's unrealistic to take current day army knowledge and incorporate it into 40k armies (well... most of them anyway) While i agree most armies will have some understanding of what is where if they look hard enough.

On another note.

I'd be very disappointed if the marine rhino festooned with chapter icons held a normal tac squad while the rhino with tactical squad markings held a Chapter master + retinue.

On the other hand, if you see 3 tac marking rhinos and only 2 tac squads deployed and all 3 rhinos are steaming foreward... then i'll admit it might be hard to know which rhino the last tac squad is in.

Hmm. Good question. I'd say open topped stuff, you should really tell people what's inside, as you would be able to see it, whereas covered transports are fair game for baiting and surprising, though I suppose one should really deploy a Dedicated Transport at the same time as it's 'Parent' squad.

Gwar! wrote:

Jakkarra wrote:1st. Realism; Yes, the game isnt meant to be the most realistic thing on the market, but things like this just make sense in some respects.

Are you in the army/navy/armed forces?

From what I have seen, pretty much every single person who has been in the armed forces claims that not knowing what is in what is about as Unrealistic as it gets.

To use a horrible example, soldiers at check points are at risk because it is very hard to work out exactly what is in what beforehand. Back to 40k and I know my nids don't care what is in what. If I were playing a long campaign, or against a regular foe, I could guess at the contents based on previous meetings.


From my very limited knowledge of heat vision technology I think they can easily discern the rough number of passengers and not much else unless it is hot/cold or radioactive.

It depends on the army intelligence, would orks try to work out what is where are would they just rather have a party and go hit things?

Ok, so if you play orks, I can keep my SW Transports Secret, but you have to tell me what's in yours.

How in the name of Russ's Left Testicle is that in any way fair?

And you dismiss the orkz kunnin' too quickly.

The only way this 'Fog of War' would be even remotely playable is if every unit in the game was deployed on the table and HIDDEN from the opponent and not just LOL Rhino Rush.

I already see it in this thread where somehow the smurfs can gain this massive gamebreaking advantage but orks and dark eldar and other less sophisticated races with open topped transports would not? Now whole armies are given an increase in advantages just because someone thinks marines are more advanced than some of the Xenos races? You can;t give arbitrary enhancements of this scale to whole armies without point-cost adjustments without it being a complete and utter joke.

The only way this could be fair is through extra rules to the mission like planetstrike or something which allow specific purchasing of 'tactics' or gear that allows units to either be hidden or see through hidden activities.

*If Rhinos can have hidden deployments, make them pay for a jammer that disallows scanning for energy or comm signals that would identify weapons or leadership.
*Allow Orks to have camo netting or 'tarp' covers which don't provide protection or inhibits disembarking but cloaks the unit inside.
*Allow I guard Tau gunlines to use blinds and camo to hide thier numbers and weapon options until fired or identified.
*You can also have rules for HOLOGRAMS which allow you to deploy an IC with 3 units only to find one of them ends up being real. All sorts of neat fun.
*And then give all armies scanner wargear that can be used to identify units. Hell, even Orks who are basic are capable of matching up with the advanced races through basic things like Weirdboy senses or other worky bitz. if Iguard can gain orbital support via a single olddude, there are loads of options for identifying units wargear or models for armies.

Hell, if you wanted to make EVERY unit regardless of type deploy on the table as a marker that represents 'man' or 'vehicle' and until the unit is identified through a game mechanic, you can't see what it is or what they are doing, just where they physically are. I think it may be fun for special missions but something that advance would slow down things waaaaaaaaaaaay too much.

The issue with this false attempt at 'tactics' or 'enhancement' by posters is up until the last thread, they had been using this as a blind advantage against non-mechanized armies and basically calling those who saw an issue with it "poor sports". Basically strongarming opponents into slanting the outcome in the game in the name of personal fun at the expense of others. Now they want to justify thier years of gaming advantage by trying to convince people it is 'tactical' or 'game enhancing' when it really is not... at least not in the form that it has been played by people up to this point.

The only way this can be actually used is in such away that every army and unit can take advantage of this and you have to pay points for the advantages given to the units. Anything else is an utter waste of time for the player who is not running a full mechanized army.

More tactical? Hah! The difference between what you're suggesting and fully disclosed contents is the difference between cheap horror flicks that rely on shock value of someone jumping out from behind a doorway shouting "BOO!" and those that get into your head, get you to empathize with the protagonists' situation and slowly break you down. One relies on cheap shock value, the other one is a psychological battle.

To escape that metaphor, the normal way of playing lends itself to tactics and attempting to out think your opponent. The one you're suggesting relies purely on surprising the opponent. "Oh, you didn't know I had Ghazghkull ambushing with Snikrot? Oh well!"

Agreed - it is not a more tactical game at all, it comes down to "kill everything as I cannot assign values" type of game, aka a return to 4th ed.

In objective based games you bet the opposing army will want to know where your troops are...

no, just... no.

no no no no....

The problem is that in truth of 'realism' this can be counter-realistic.

In the example, a recent game I was playing had 8 rhino's on my opponent.

one rhino carried a tactical squad, then a devastator squad, then managed to house a stern guard veteran squad.

it's in the spirit of people not doing a simpson- style chokeout.

just, house rule, sure.

otherwise? leave it be.

It's not fair, and espcially w/ a 'hijacked trukk' it's easy to see all of them.

COMPROMISE:
Open topped vehicle you have to state a group in them, which is not evident in non-open topped vehichles.

Compromise 2:
if you have (say, 2) squads in tanks, in the air of randomness, roll a D2 to see which squad goes where.

hope that helps?

plus it leaves things far to open to "shell game" shenanigans.
One DE player I used to play regularly had tha amazing luck that the raider with his lord/incubi in it was always the last one to blow up.
All vehicles should be marked with their contents (Secretly if you wish).
Anyone wanting it otherwise, to my mind, is planning to cheat.

In principle there shouldnt be a problem with this approach going on the basis that people wont cheat. Unfortunatly people will.
I always mark my transport vehicles in a way that my opponent can identify what squad is supposed to be in it i.e. a symbol, colour or number that corresponds with the squad
its carrying. This way even if we play hidden lists my opponent will know I've not pulled any shennanigans.

The problem with hidden information and units is that there are too many constraints on the game for any of it to really be hidden.

We know too much because of the game rules.

We know the points limit of the game, so we have a rough idea how many points must be inside those transports. We can add and subtract so instead of real surprises what we have is a new layer of required skills added to the game. 40k already rewards players who know their opponents rules, this would just reward players who know exactly what their opponents units cost.

Oh yes, I really want to play a game where my opponent says "wait a minute, Im adding up the point cost of your units that I can see, so I can figure out what you might have in those transports" Half an hour later we get to stop as I unload a unit and he has to recalculate.

If we had some sort of perfectly neutral ref then more hidden deployments and information would work, but you really need a full time ref and three tables to make it work well. One open table and one table separate hidden table for each player. Each player moves and deploys on their hidden table, the ref moves those units onto the common open table as the units are spotted by the opposing army. Everything is cloaked in the fog of war and it can be a real blast. Its also incredibly cumbersome and time consuming. If that sort of environment is really what you want tho, go play on a computer, fog of war is one of the things computers readily simulate.

40k is not meant to be terribly realistic. For one thing, just stop and look at the ranges of the weapons. Rockets, heavy lasers and heavy cannons limited to 48" range? The ranges used in 40k are almost point blank for armor, in no way are weapons that short range. And the movement limits? If your squad is caught out in the open and someone if firing at it...are they really going to creep along at that cautious and wary 6" speed? Why pick on only rules regarding hidden units if your concern is realism?

The game isnt realistic, it is a game. Get over it.


Sliggoth

what sliggy said

I'm gonna quote that, I'm afraid.

@ nkelsch I have to say, I find your tone very argumentative. I created this new thread because the previous thread wasn't mine and was becoming a fight. As I feel obliged to defend myself, and possibly other posters, I personally play nids far more than any space marine army, don't expect to be told what's in my opponents transports, would never 'strongarm' an opponent into doing anything and am not a 12 y.o cheater. If my opponent isn't having fun I definitely won't enjoy the game as much.

You also use the term 'game-breaking' which I think is going a bit far as well. As an example, using the new SW codex can (debatably) create a more advantageous army than the old one for the same points giving a clear advantage to one player over another. This isn't game-breaking. It's just different.

On a different note, I love the idea of your orks buying tarps to hide from enemy scanners, especially because it would probably work with he new orky-magic fluff. I also like your ideas to standardise the practise with rules and points. However, as I have already qualified it is obviously not suitable for tournament play, I think it completely unnecessary in a freindly, house-rules type atmosphere where handing an advantage to one player or another is not a big deal.

@ Sliggoth I agree that the game is not realistic and that it shouldn't be taken too seriously. That's why I tend to play RAI, sometimes substitute logic for the rules all together. I think, and I'm sure the people I play with will agree, the game is more fun when players can agree which rules make sense to them and so pick and choose (and being mature adults about it (but still getting to play with toy soldiers)).

No way in hell, mech is strong enough already without having to guess what unit is where "one rhino is empty and one will kill me next turn. time to guess!", not to mention the potential for people to just straight up cheat, or "forget", or in fact actually forget, which unit is where.

I think this is completely down to personal choice. My gaming friends and I have a lot of ‘house rules’ which we feel enhances the game to our style of play. We play the secrecy rule, whether open topped or not, the contents are only revealed through the guys having to bail out. We each mark down before the game what is in what transport so that when the troops bail out for whatever reason, we show that’s what was in from the start. We very rarely actually do this now because we trust each other.

I find it makes a far more interesting and challenging game when you have to make the choice, not have the choice made for you. In my previous example, 6 Trukks, 3 Shots and one of them has the Nob Squad of Death in it. Do I save my Devastotors on one flank, Assault Marines on the other, or is he coming down the middle. Think about it from the ‘Ork’ point of view (not that they do much thinking). I’ve 6 Rhino’s charging towards me and 3 Rokkits. As an Ork I’m hardly going to know what the funny Arrow and Crosses mean on the top hatches that I can’t see from the ground to target the boss’s tank. (in fact as an Ork, “F*** it! I’ll charge all 6 into combat anyway!”.

We also do not disclose reserves until they arrive. Again you’re forced to make a choice. “Do I keep a squad back to protect my heavy weapons, just in case he’s a Drop Pod in Reserve?”. Again if you know if your opponents got a Drop Pod, then your choice is made for you. Boring in my opinion.

We also play ‘fog of war’ with infiltrators. If I’ve a scout squad that’s infiltrated, it cannot be shot at or targeted until there is an enemy model within 12”, or the squad performs any action. For us this represents a stealthy infiltration team who’ve hidden away from the enemy.

Again, the 2 examples above are ‘House Rules’ which work for us, not necessarily the general masses. We prefer playing with unpredictability in our games, not knowing makes it far more interesting.

And for all those saying that intelligence is great today on the front line. Well, currently, I’m not on the ‘front line’, but I am posted to the Middle Eastern Region (use your imagination). When it comes to identifying groups of forces, its no problem. When it comes to identifying an individual within that group (that in most cases all look alike), then it’s a guess at best. Identifying what vehicle / room / building an individual is in, from a group of people who all look the same, in a collection of rooms / vehicles / buildings….. impossible. Hell, B** L**** could have been involved in any of the numerous clashes we’ve had, and we wouldn’t know if he was there or not.

Sounds like a fun rule set, secretsquig, quite similar to our own.

Very interesting infiltrator rules- I may suggest that next for time.

We sometimes play a weird scenario where half each army is dotted around the battlefield in stasis (or trapped in a box/asleep/whatever). They are in containers (rhinos) and only revealed when moved into. You find a friendly unit? Use em. You get and enemy unit? Roll-off to see if you can bump them off before they wake up and start attacking. Make an interesting mix of should I run my guys around to find friends or kill his guys doing the same.

You know, as a Dark Eldar (and soon to be ork) player I don't really mind the whole secrecy aspect.

After all, open topped transports have their own distinct advantage (like you can hold your whole army in reserve and then assault the second they come on the board if they dare to take your side of it).

In the case of the orks you can normally buy an 'Ard case anyways if you just HAVE to have a secret army.

And in the case of the dark eldar.... lets be honest... against smurfs (and I'm not tooting my own horn here because I am not, and don't claim to be, a master dark eldar player), under the current rules its simply just not fair for the poor emperors little babies. Especially if you were dumb enough to field an all rhino force. Or God forbid a land raider heavy one....

Because remember, its not until after all 10 lance batteries turn your rhino's and raiders into smoldering heaps that the disintegrators begin firing at whoever pops out....

(post meant in good fun)

Says the one with lances..... *grumbles*