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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 14:55:14
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Title says it all.
G
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 15:04:24
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime
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Green Blow Fly wrote:Title says it all.
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No.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 15:06:20
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Yes it can be picked out in combat, if you as the tyranid player chooses to have the wound placed on the HT instead of the TG.
*edit* forgot to mention, why would you want to put wounds on the HT though. Maybe to give the TG the special rules for when the HT dies? I guess maybe the HT has only one wound left and then join it with the TG and see it the HT will not last and choose for it to die so the 3 TG has the special rules when the HT dies.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/25 15:33:45
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong". |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 15:09:21
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Hive Tyrants aren't ICs, so no.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 15:47:54
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Nice. I was not aware of that.
Thanks!
G
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 15:52:12
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Martial Arts Fiday
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They join them as an IC though....??
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"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"
-Nobody Ever
Proverbs 18:2
"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.
warboss wrote:
GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up. 
Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.
EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.
Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 15:56:22
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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The New Miss Macross!
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MasterSlowPoke wrote:Hive Tyrants aren't ICs, so no.
actually, they are when they join tyrant guard. "may join a unit of tyrant guard exactly as if it were an independent character". there was an earlier thread about whether the hive tyrant could be shot at while with the tyrant guard and people seemed to be split on that. i'm personally of the opinion that if it joins as an IC, it uses the IC rules while with the squad so it can't be shot but can be singled out in assault. others thought that it's IC status is only for the joining of the squad and it then loses it's status. if you're on that side of the coin, they can't ever be singled out as the current new codex doesn't have a shoot the big ones type rule.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 16:01:24
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Martial Arts Fiday
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He joins as an IC but never loses his MC status either. So he may be picked out in CC or shooting.
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"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"
-Nobody Ever
Proverbs 18:2
"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.
warboss wrote:
GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up. 
Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.
EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.
Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 16:01:30
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Fixture of Dakka
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ooops here we go again. HT is not an IC. Where in the HT rules that give it the IC rule? There isn't any. The TG has a rule that lets the TG to join the TG brood. It Dosn't give the HT an IC rules. If it did, then the HT would be able to leave the brood, wich it Can't. Once in the Brood it has to stay in the Brood.
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Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong". |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 16:03:57
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Martial Arts Fiday
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Nid book, pg 35:
A single Hive Tyrant may join a unit of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it were an independent character.
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"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"
-Nobody Ever
Proverbs 18:2
"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.
warboss wrote:
GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up. 
Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.
EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.
Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 16:04:03
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Sneaky Lictor
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yes, hive tyrant can be singled out. Same as eldrad or any other seer can be singled out of a warlock retinue. Read the codex. He joins exactly as if he were an independent character.
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Pink and silver mech eldar- suckzorz
Hive fleet - unstoppable
09-10 tourney record (small 10-20 person events)- 24/4/1
CAG 2010-3rd
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 16:06:55
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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The New Miss Macross!
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Davor wrote:ooops here we go again. HT is not an IC. Where in the HT rules that give it the IC rule? There isn't any. The TG has a rule that lets the TG to join the TG brood. It Dosn't give the HT an IC rules. If it did, then the HT would be able to leave the brood, wich it Can't. Once in the Brood it has to stay in the Brood.
oops is right as i quoted the rule above. it's joins as "exactly as an IC". if it's part of the unit and using the IC rules, it can be singled out in CC but not shooting. it can also leave the unit as it joined as an IC, which can leave non-retinue units. can you tell me where it says it can't leave? it doesn't. the crux of the arguement is whether you think it's IC status is only for the 1/100 of a second it takes to join the unit and then it loses it. if you do think it loses it, you'd have to stay with the tyrant guard since only the IC rules allow you to leave; there is nothing in shieldwall that allows you to leave them, just join.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 16:10:55
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought
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Nurgleboy77 wrote:Nid book, pg 35:
A single Hive Tyrant may join a unit of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it were an independent character.
"May join a unit" (that is the ONLY action being taken) "exactly as if it were an independent character." In no other way is the HT acting like an IC.
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I have a love /hate relationship with anything green. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 16:14:59
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Martial Arts Fiday
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So you're saying that they only follow the rules for the 1st bullet on pg. 48?
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"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"
-Nobody Ever
Proverbs 18:2
"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.
warboss wrote:
GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up. 
Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.
EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.
Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 16:15:14
Subject: Re:Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Battlefield Professional
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Does anyone know how this is being dealt with in official events and tournaments? I have an RTT coming up in February and I'd like to be able to address this in my announcements before the event starts.
-Dis.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 16:17:31
Subject: Re:Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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they probably mean for the tyrant to join the Tyrant Guard for the purpose of wound allocation in shooting. Also, if you are in base contact with it, can't you attack it regardless? If we go by that logic I could make tons of scarab swarms for a tomb spyder and he can never be singled out in CC as both examples of a complex unit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 16:17:35
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Martial Arts Fiday
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"The new Tyranid codex will not be used until it is FAqed"
would be my announcement. What a sloppy crap-codex!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/25 16:17:46
"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"
-Nobody Ever
Proverbs 18:2
"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.
warboss wrote:
GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up. 
Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.
EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.
Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 16:17:45
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Yvan eht nioj
In my Austin Ambassador Y Reg
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Just as an aside, why has this rule been made so bloody obtuse and convoluted in this codex? In the previous codex the shieldwall rule was pretty straightforward so why has it been made so confusing now? Automatically Appended Next Post: Kurgash wrote:they probably mean for the tyrant to join the Tyrant Guard for the purpose of wound allocation in shooting. Also, if you are in base contact with it, can't you attack it regardless? If we go by that logic I could make tons of scarab swarms for a tomb spyder and he can never be singled out in CC as both examples of a complex unit.
This. I was under the impression that if a model was in base to base contact with the hive tyrant then it would have to allocate it's attacks against the hive tyrant. Any models within 2" of the hive tyrant can also choose to allocate attacks against it, or is this not the case?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/25 16:19:28
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 16:20:03
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Sneaky Lictor
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Because some people either fail at reading comprehension or succeed at selective interpretation. Unless someone comes up with a concrete reason why not my swarmlord will always be able to be singled out in hand to hand, and if you play me so will yours.
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Pink and silver mech eldar- suckzorz
Hive fleet - unstoppable
09-10 tourney record (small 10-20 person events)- 24/4/1
CAG 2010-3rd
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 16:20:25
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Veteran Inquisitor with Xenos Alliances
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The gramatical structure of "as if he were an IC", excludes him as not being an IC.If he were rules would simply state "he becomes an IC". It is a nonsensical statement if he is in fact an IC upon joining TGs. "As if" is being used in place of "like" or "in similar fashion to an IC".
He joins "as if he were an IC", this means he is not an IC. He is performing an action normally reserved for ICs. The rules are giving him permission to do so without becoming an IC.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 16:21:14
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Sneaky Lictor
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He joins meaning when he joins the unit he is treated as an independent character that has joined a unit.
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Pink and silver mech eldar- suckzorz
Hive fleet - unstoppable
09-10 tourney record (small 10-20 person events)- 24/4/1
CAG 2010-3rd
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 16:22:02
Subject: Re:Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Kid_Kyoto
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In the game I played last night, I counted the Tyrant as an IC when he was joined. We were very unsure of this as well. Now that I think about it, I think that the 'correct' answer would be that since he just "joins them as an IC", then he is not actually an IC come combat time any more than a Tyrant with wings is jump infantry when it is deployment time. Which is to say, he is not.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 16:26:53
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought
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Nurgleboy77 wrote:So you're saying that they only follow the rules for the 1st bullet on pg. 48?
Deuce11 wrote:Nurgleboy77 wrote:Nid book, pg 35:
A single Hive Tyrant may join a unit of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it were an independent character.
"May join a unit" (that is the ONLY action being taken) "exactly as if it were an independent character." In no other way is the HT acting like an IC.
No, no. I was speaking specifically to the one line about "joining a unit." That's why I quoted you.
Automatically Appended Next Post: daedalus wrote:In the game I played last night, I counted the Tyrant as an IC when he was joined. We were very unsure of this as well. Now that I think about it, I think that the 'correct' answer would be that since he just "joins them as an IC", then he is not actually an IC come combat time any more than a Tyrant with wings is jump infantry when it is deployment time. Which is to say, he is not.
QFT
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/25 16:27:38
I have a love /hate relationship with anything green. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 16:30:26
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Veteran Inquisitor with Xenos Alliances
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A) he is only an IC when he joins TGs
or
B) he is not an IC but can do an IC thing.
As it is written, it does not state he becomes an IC, it states he does an action normally reserved to ICs.
If we read it by the other interpretation, it doesn't make sense as a sentence. How can an IC act as if it were an IC? It is or it isn't. If its an IC the correct and only way to write it is: "the HT is an IC when joined".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 16:33:37
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Kid_Kyoto
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Nurgleboy77 wrote:So you're saying that they only follow the rules for the 1st bullet on pg. 48?
You remember this which some (including myself) campaigned against so heavily?
Space Wolves wrote:Jaws of the World Wolf is used as a PSA...
It's a PSA without any of the drawbacks of being a PSA....
Tyranids wrote:A single Hive Tyrant may join a unit of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it were an independent character.
Same story here I guess. Welcome to 5th edition, land of the "things that are like things but not really things".
More intelligently, I would try to argue that the as if part describes the action taken by the Hive Tyrant, not the unit identifaction or rules of the Hive Tyrant itself, or additionally see below:
"This balloon is exactly as red as an apple." Would you then try to eat said balloon thinking it was an apple?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 16:34:54
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Praetorian
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warboss wrote:MasterSlowPoke wrote:Hive Tyrants aren't ICs, so no.
actually, they are when they join tyrant guard. "may join a unit of tyrant guard exactly as if it were an independent character". there was an earlier thread about whether the hive tyrant could be shot at while with the tyrant guard and people seemed to be split on that. i'm personally of the opinion that if it joins as an IC, it uses the IC rules while with the squad so it can't be shot but can be singled out in assault. others thought that it's IC status is only for the joining of the squad and it then loses it's status. if you're on that side of the coin, they can't ever be singled out as the current new codex doesn't have a shoot the big ones type rule.
Ok there is another thread where this was argued, and until there is a GW FAQ for the nid book, this will not be resolved, here is a summary of results of the points made in that thread:
If you believe that the shieldwall rule statement of "may join a unit of tyrant guard exactly as if it were an independent character" just allows your tyrant join but not make the Tyrant and IC or follow any other of the rules for ICs, then you cannot pick out the tyrant for shooting or close combat because they are not ICs
If you believe that the shieldwall rule statement of "may join a unit of tyrant guard exactly as if it were an independent character" does not exclude you from following all of the IC rules, so you must follow ALL of them. So your tyrant may be picked out for shooting because it is still a monstrous creature acting as an IC, and may be picked out in CC all per the IC RAW.
These positions have been argued in another thread already.
I personally would like to think that GW did not intend to make the shieldwall rule totally useless, and intended to have it protect the hive tyrant like it did in the 4th ed codex rules, but they did not want to say it acts like retinue and transplant the 4th ed codex rules right over. So I would like to believe that the tyrant is allowed to just join the guard, and may not follow any of the other IC rules.
Until we hear from GW, it sounds like from the other thread that people are pretty entrenched on how they believe it should work, so at some point this will be the new does the Hive Tryant become an IC thread and the old arguments will pop up again from the other thread.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 16:38:15
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Stormin' Stompa
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He isn't, nor does he become, an IC.
He is given a specific exception to perform a general action normally only allowed to ICs.
The rules does not give him any further exceptions, advantages nor disadvantages.
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"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."
18.000 3.500 8.200 3.300 2.400 3.100 5.500 2.500 3.200 3.000
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 16:39:27
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Sneaky Lictor
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Wait back in the day, like two weeks ago, werent you still able to single out the tyrant?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/25 16:39:41
Pink and silver mech eldar- suckzorz
Hive fleet - unstoppable
09-10 tourney record (small 10-20 person events)- 24/4/1
CAG 2010-3rd
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 16:42:40
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Stormin' Stompa
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I fail to see the relevance of how the rules used to work.
As such I cannot be bothered to look up the old rules.
Yeah, I'm that lazy.
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"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."
18.000 3.500 8.200 3.300 2.400 3.100 5.500 2.500 3.200 3.000
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/01/25 16:46:51
Subject: Can a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard be picked out in close combat?
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Sneaky Lictor
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Its not relevant to the argument, I was just curious. Actually no it is. If the guy was not able to be singled out back in the day then I believe it would be the intent to keep it that way now.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/25 16:50:02
Pink and silver mech eldar- suckzorz
Hive fleet - unstoppable
09-10 tourney record (small 10-20 person events)- 24/4/1
CAG 2010-3rd
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