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I grappled the shoggoth wrote:Its not relevant to the argument, I was just curious.

Actually no it is. If the guy was not able to be singled out back in the day then I believe it would be the intent to keep it that way now.

the 4th ed codex tyrant guard acted specifically said they acted as a retinue for the hive tyrant, so they were essentially a unit where the hive tyrant was an upgrade character, exactly like a marine squad with a sergent, or an ork mob of boyz with a nob. So no they could not be singled out with the 4th ed codex in either shooting or CC.

I change my opinion then. That he simply joins as in IC. The other issue with this was him being able to be singled out with shooting, which would make the tyrant guard stupid.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:I change my opinion then. That he simply joins as in IC. The other issue with this was him being able to be singled out with shooting, which would make the tyrant guard stupid.

If the tyrant must follow all of the IC rules, I believe that you would be spending 60-180 points plus for a unit that would allow a tyrant to get a cover save if the guard would receive a cover save. The only other benefit I could think of are that they do allow a Tyrant with wings with a unit of guard (you could not have a tyrant with wings joined by a guard unit in the 4th ed codex), so they could get a cover save from shooting until you needed him to charge, and then have him leave the unit, and have the guard unit go after another target.

"Joins" - that is the action the HY performs

"exactly as if..." - that is HOW they are performing the action.

THey are not an IC, never become or ever look like an IC. YOu cannot assign attacks (as they are *not* a seperate unit) against the HT in CC, merely the unit containing the HT. You also cannot pick them out for shooting as they are NOT a monstrous IC.

They simply JOIN the unit as an IC. Nothing else.

This again! This really annoys me EXACTLY AS IF I were Keith Olbermann

Volkov wrote:This again! This really annoys me EXACTLY AS IF I were Keith Olbermann

Hey! Look, It's Keith Olbermann! Quick, get his Autograph!

Hey! Look, It's Keith Olbermann! Quick, get his Autograph!

Clearly no amount of quoting and/or analogies will change anyone's mind on this matter

I have to say joining a unit as an IC is not being an IC. If they wanted to make the HT an IC but limit him to joining a brood of Tyrant Guards that would have been as easy to put down.

As it is, they said join as an IC, but nothing else in the IC rules would apply to an HT as he is not an IC. It is really very simple.

The purpose is of the Tyrant Guard is to keep the Tyrant alive in both HTH and from being targeted in shooting.

but can they deepstrike if they have wings... oh wait

jgemrich wrote:I have to say joining a unit as an IC is not being an IC. If they wanted to make the HT an IC but limit him to joining a brood of Tyrant Guards that would have been as easy to put down.

As it is, they said join as an IC, but nothing else in the IC rules would apply to an HT as he is not an IC. It is really very simple.

The purpose is of the Tyrant Guard is to keep the Tyrant alive in both HTH and from being targeted in shooting.

Yeah, i don't think he can be picked out either, he can in CC,if theyre BTB, but not in shooting. If he could there would be absoloutly no point of tyrant guard at all.

Eldar Own wrote:

jgemrich wrote:I have to say joining a unit as an IC is not being an IC. If they wanted to make the HT an IC but limit him to joining a brood of Tyrant Guards that would have been as easy to put down.

As it is, they said join as an IC, but nothing else in the IC rules would apply to an HT as he is not an IC. It is really very simple.

The purpose is of the Tyrant Guard is to keep the Tyrant alive in both HTH and from being targeted in shooting.

Yeah, i don't think he can be picked out either, he can in CC,if theyre BTB, but not in shooting. If he could there would be absoloutly no point of tyrant guard at all.

Can I pick out your Powerfist guy in CC if I get in BtB with him as well then?

Eldar Own wrote:

jgemrich wrote:I have to say joining a unit as an IC is not being an IC. If they wanted to make the HT an IC but limit him to joining a brood of Tyrant Guards that would have been as easy to put down.

As it is, they said join as an IC, but nothing else in the IC rules would apply to an HT as he is not an IC. It is really very simple.

The purpose is of the Tyrant Guard is to keep the Tyrant alive in both HTH and from being targeted in shooting.

Yeah, i don't think he can be picked out either, he can in CC,if theyre BTB, but not in shooting. If he could there would be absoloutly no point of tyrant guard at all.

NO, you *cannot* pick the HT out in CC - you can only "pick out" (i.e. Direct) Attacks at seperate UNITS - the HT is not an IC, and is therefore NOT a seperate unit in close combat.

The purpose is of the Tyrant Guard is to keep the Tyrant alive in both HTH and from being targeted in shooting.

Clearly. And the counter-argument for this rests on an ambiguity in the language. Which for the record I don't think even exists

Nurgleboy77 wrote:He joins as an IC but never loses his MC status either. So he may be picked out in CC or shooting.

This needs a FAQ to keep people from shafting Nidz players.

G

If he could be picked out in combat like an IC, wouldn't he also not get bonus penetration dice like a MC would? I don't think he can be picked out based on that.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:If he could be picked out in combat like an IC, wouldn't he also not get bonus penetration dice like a MC would? I don't think he can be picked out based on that.

What in the world are you talking about.

I'm saying he'd either be an IC in combat or an MC, not some strange hybrid of the two. How would we know which MC rules to keep and which IC ones to adopt instead?

He doesn't lose any MC rules.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:I'm saying he'd either be an IC in combat or an MC, not some strange hybrid of the two. How would we know which MC rules to keep and which IC ones to adopt instead?

Why would he lose any MC rules? It doesn't say under shieldwall that he loses rules. It says that he, a monstrous creature, joins a squad of Tyrant guard as an IC would. That means he has to be adjacent to them, and has all of the implicit joining restrictions concerning movement that ICs have when they try to join a squad.

Hilarious other ramification I thought of. Strictly speaking, there is no provision for him to leave the squad as an IC would; He can only join.

I'm not saying he does. I'm just not sure how we're supposed to know which IC rules he follows and which MC rules he follows if he is supposed to be a hybrid. He'd have to be one or the other.

He is not an IC. At all. Hive Guard allow him to join as if he were one, but that's it.

Even if he were an IC, there is no conflict between the IC and MC rules - he could be both with no problems whatsoever, and even WAS an MC IC until the new codex.

This needs a FAQ for sure.

Yo to SlowPoke... where do you play at? I am over in Largo.

G

THere is a difference between *joining* a unit, being *part* of the unit, and *leaving* the unit.

The HT can Join like an IC. It is not part of it like an IC, and it cannot leave like an IC.


In the previous codex, the guard would *deploy* just like and MC. That did not mean it also attacked like an MC, or moved like and MC.

What are the rules for an IC to *join* a unit, those are the only rules that apply to the HT. Once it has already joined, the rule ceases to be relevant.

I'm not saying he does. I'm just not sure how we're supposed to know which IC rules he follows and which MC rules he follows if he is supposed to be a hybrid. He'd have to be one or the other.

There is no rule that keeps a model from being both an IC and an MC -- so your point is a non issue. In fact the IC rules address how such a model works (there just hasn't been one in a long while -- since the 3ed Eldar codex I think)

What are the rules for an IC to *join* a unit, those are the only rules that apply to the HT. Once it has already joined, the rule ceases to be relevant.

There are a whole host of rules that can be argued to apply to any model that joins as if it were an IC. We don't know where those rules begin and end -- because the shieldwall rule is ambiguous. There's also a whole host of issues if he simply joins and can't leave (like KPs for one). Not making a slippery slope argument, just saying it is not crystal clear because the RAW is not clear enough. I wish it were clear cut but it isn't, at least in my opinion.

My tyrant guard won't hit the table until an FAQ is released because I hate dealing with ambiguity on a game by game basis, so I am crossing my fingers for a quickly released one like the SWs.

winterman wrote:My tyrant guard won't hit the table until an FAQ is released

And what am I, Chopped Liver?

Green Blow Fly wrote:This needs a FAQ for sure.

Yo to SlowPoke... where do you play at? I am over in Largo.

G

Anthem Games in Tampa, I like the atmosphere better than Armada and it's a lot closer. Largo is over by Skull-N-Bonez, right? I've heard good things about that store.

Gwar! wrote:

winterman wrote:My tyrant guard won't hit the table until an FAQ is released

And what am I, Chopped Liver?

A big steaming pile of it.

So basically, no-one knows, everyone has their own interpretation of the rule and there doesnt seem to be any one universal consensus. Blimey, when I read the new nid codex I thought 'hmm that rule seems a little vague' but this is bloody ridiculous! Did no-one at GW think to proof read or test this stuff before it gets printed?

They do not believe in the practice of Proof Reading.

If the rules as written don't work, then your not playing right. Stop being a WAAC gamer and just play the game.

This message is brought to you by the letters B and S.

I don't see how people can claim the language makes the HT an IC? He joins as an IC, that is one action he performs.

If you claim he stays as an IC (with no backing in the rules for this) then the Tyrant Guard is entirely useless which should tell you something.

The only issue with the rule as it stands pertains to KPs but I'd assume that although he joins as an IC and none of the other rules apply he should be a seperate KP, but technically as it stands he doesn't? Is that right?