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Hello,

The other day my little gaming group was playing a doubles game and a problem arose.

My ally with his Eldar had Melta-bombs equipped on one unit. He used them on a Monolith, and the Necron player claimed that the Melta Bombs should only get 1D6 + 8 armor penetration, since they were melta and the extra D6 was negated (as stated in the name Melta bombs). However, the Eldar player claimed that they weren't specifically listed as a melta weapon (as in having the special rule "melta"), and therefore got 2D6 + 8.

Which is it, because I could see both sides of this argument having a point?

Please excuse if this has been listed before.

edit: I added a poll to see the numbers.

They do not specifically have the Melta rule.

What you want to resolve after 5 hours of shouting and hoarse voices is up to you.

The Bringer wrote:Hello,

The other day my little gaming group was playing a doubles game and a problem arose.

My ally with his Eldar had Melta-bombs equipped on one unit. He used them on a Monolith, and the Necron player claimed that the Melta Bombs should only get 1D6 + 8 armor penetration, since they were melta and the extra D6 was negated (as stated in the name Melta bombs). However, the Eldar player claimed that they weren't specifically listed as a melta weapon (as in having the special rule "melta"), and therefore got 2D6 + 8.

Which is it, because I could see both sides of this argument having a point?

Please excuse if this has been listed before.

No, they are not Melta.

However, the Monolith states that you roll "Strength +D6 no matter what". Technically, meltabombs have no strength, they have 8+2D6 Armour Penetration, so make of that what you will.

Silly rules lawyering.

The Monolith was created with the intent that nothing will do more than 1d6 extra damage. That's the whole intent. You can argue "You don't know what the author's intent was" but it's pretty self explanitory from how they wrote it.

That said, it seems silly to say they get 2d6 since melta isn't in the characteristics but is still in the name.

I don't play Necrons but even I would say it would only get 1d6 and it's pretty much how the living metal rule works. Anyone arguing me against it too much isn't really worth playing imo.

Can't have RAW without RAI and vice-versa. Just keep the game fun.

Gwar! wrote:

The Bringer wrote:Hello,

The other day my little gaming group was playing a doubles game and a problem arose.

My ally with his Eldar had Melta-bombs equipped on one unit. He used them on a Monolith, and the Necron player claimed that the Melta Bombs should only get 1D6 + 8 armor penetration, since they were melta and the extra D6 was negated (as stated in the name Melta bombs). However, the Eldar player claimed that they weren't specifically listed as a melta weapon (as in having the special rule "melta"), and therefore got 2D6 + 8.

Which is it, because I could see both sides of this argument having a point?

Please excuse if this has been listed before.

No, they are not Melta.

However, the Monolith states that you roll "Strength +D6 no matter what". Technically, meltabombs have no strength, they have 8+2D6 Armour Penetration, so make of that what you will.

So technically, all you would get is ST 0 + 1d6 , since all you get is ST + 1d6.............................

So, you're saying melta bombs are pointless against vehicles where krak and defensive grenades aren't?

Doesn't seem right...


I would also disagree with the 8 counting as nothing. If it were nothing, then melta bombs would always be 0 + 2D6. It represents the strength of the weapon.

Hoodwink wrote:
That said, it seems silly to say they get 2d6 since melta isn't in the characteristics but is still in the name.

The assault cannon isn't an Assault weapon.

Nope, I'm not saying that at all. Personally, I would say that meltabombs get ST 8 + 1d6 against a Monolith, making it possible for them to glance a Monolith. But if you want to play Gwar RAW, then they are ST 0 + 1d6 against Monoliths.
Against any non-living metal vehicle, they get ST 8 + 2d6, just as written in their description.

The Bringer wrote:So, you're saying melta bombs are pointless against vehicles where krak and defensive grenades aren't?

Doesn't seem right...

I believe all grenades work by the same rules as melta bomb, and therefore none of them have strength. This suggests that Monoliths cannot be damaged by grenades, or the person who wrote the rules was in a state of psychological depression.

Nightwatch wrote:

Hoodwink wrote:
That said, it seems silly to say they get 2d6 since melta isn't in the characteristics but is still in the name.

The assault cannon isn't an Assault weapon.

Yes, but a melta gun is a melta weapon...

The Bringer wrote:

Nightwatch wrote:

Hoodwink wrote:
That said, it seems silly to say they get 2d6 since melta isn't in the characteristics but is still in the name.

The assault cannon isn't an Assault weapon.

Yes, but a melta gun is a melta weapon...

Which just goes to show, only half the time can you rely on judging books by their covers.

The Bringer wrote:

Nightwatch wrote:

Hoodwink wrote:
That said, it seems silly to say they get 2d6 since melta isn't in the characteristics but is still in the name.

The assault cannon isn't an Assault weapon.

Yes, but a melta gun is a melta weapon...

Because it has the Melta Weapon type...

I'd say living metal doesn't apply to grenades, because they're not actually shot, they're attached meaning the metal wouldn't be able to react.

in my opinion, the rule is OP.

Captain Solon wrote:
in my opinion, the rule is OP.

Or mis-written.

Or, perhaps, just perhaps, the writers wrote down what they intended to write down?

Captain Solon wrote:they're attached meaning the metal wouldn't be able to react.

That has to be one of the most fallible things I’ve ever read and in so many ways!

Gwar! wrote:Or, perhaps, just perhaps, the writers wrote down what they intended to write down?

And failed to explain it in a way that would be simple for all people to understand, because it does not take into account weapons that do not have strengths. One can only guess at what was intended.

Doesn't matter how the hit is applied, whether by shooting, assault or dropping an asteroid on it. All you ever get when attempting to penetrate a Monoltih is unaugmented Strength of the weapon plus 1d6. Period. That's it. No more. No +1 for Tank Hunter, no additional dice for melta, no Vindicare 3 plus 3d6 rending, etc etc. (Altho Ordnance does get to roll 2d6 and take the highest) Just unagmented strength of the weapon and 1d6.

think about it: it's not a gun, the metal can't see it comming, gawd.

And? Why does it need to "see it coming"? What, it didn't see the model with the whatever walking, flying, riding, whatever towards it? Living etal does not differentiate between shooting and assault hits, so why should we?

Discuss with your opponent before hand is probably the best option.

My view, however, is this: When used against a vehicle, a grenade is a weapon; it hits as a normal attack and has a certain way to resolve armour penetration (e.g. just like a chainfist).

The Monolith's Living metal rule states that weapons that get additional Armour Penetration dice do not get any extra dice against the Monolith.

So, there are two basic interpretations you need to clear with your opponent: A grenade is a weapon with respect to attacking a vehicle, and one of the 2D6 rolled for meltabombs is "additional."

If you can agree on those points, then meltabombs should roll 8+D6 against monoliths. (Obviously, this is just one interpretation that describes my logic progression, so YMMV).

Of course, if you can't work this out, then one or both of you are being stupid.

Xca|iber wrote:Of course, if you can't work this out, then one or both of you are being stupid.

Or breaking the rules, since the rules are crystal clear on the matter. Vs Monoliths you roll 0+D6 with all types of Grenades.

This makes me laugh.. If you had to choose between shooting yourself with a melta gun or strapping a meltabomb to yourself and detonating it, which would you choose??? Eitherway your be hard pressed to say afterwards that either one was not a weapon.

Heh, and yet, a Deffrolla is not a "weapon"....................

Again like 'think about it' lol, if this metal(using wor dwords now) can see a gun held by a guy hiding behing a hill on the otherside of a battle field, how's going to miss the guy in front of it holding a grenade?

Secondly, from a chemistry perspective, physical contact, it's the best way to guarantee a reaction.

Weapons do not attack, units attack.So unit with a meltagun attacking the monolith rolls ST+2D6. Because the weapon(meltagun) is not attacking the monolith. The unit holding the meltagun is attacking the monolith. EDIT: heres the quote: "any weapon attacking the monolith"

EDIT #2: PROBLEM SOLVED

Right, so lay the meltagun down on the ground and let it attack using it's own Ballistic Skill.............

uh-uh that'd be with it's WS, unless it's going to spit at the monolith!

He said meltagun, so I assumed it was planning on shooting. So there..........

So,

My 2 cents on this

Reading the special rules on living metal on the Necron Codex

"Living Metal: The Monolith is made of living Necron metal which is not only self-repairing but is capable of adapting its structure to resist incoming attacks. Attacks which count the targets Armour Value as being less then it really is is (Such as bright lances and blasters) do not do so against the Monolith. Similarly, weapons that get additional Armour Penetration dice (such as chainfists, monstrous creatures, or melta weapons) do not get the extra dice against the Monolith. Ordnance weapons still roll 2D6 for AP and select the highest Score"

Based on this, it doesn't specify a specific special ability. It just says any weapon that gets "additional AP dice" and give several examples of some (and some that don't exist IE. Blasters).

My interpretation would be any weapon that gets additional (IE, more then 1) doesn't get it, no matter the special ability or reason it gets it.