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The 250 point Meph is ridiculous... except for one facet, he is not an IC anymore which means he cannot join a squad... so much for soaking extra wounds around him. Anyone have any ideas with this one strat wise?

The assualt out of deepstrike is a myth... no such thing which saddens me greatly

However all of the LR have deepstrike which is very cool, given the right situation. And the new transport vehicle for the BA called the Ravenswing or somthing to that effect can transport 12 troops in front and a Dread in the back at the same time... which is very fricking cool.

Any thoughts?

I thought it was kind of silly that normal assault squads get the "decent of angels" rule, but that vanguard do not.

Vanguard can, however, still assault out of deepstrike.

Mephiston is so stupidly powerful that I can't honestly think of what a fair points cost for him would be. Some armies won't have a problem with him. Some armies are going to get smashed apart by a single model.

For me, I know that I will be giving him his own (deep striking) crusader.

I thought the Land Raiders were dedicated transports only?
Unless of coarse Mephi can actually take one for himself.

Cheers,
~Volkan

@Wildstyle

any unit that has a jump pack in the Blood Angels army gets Descent of Angels. Meaning that Vanguard do in fact get it and it will make them actually usable. 1d6 scatter and assault out of deepstrike....yes please

When I looked at the codex it did not say that. Some of the units specifically had it, and some did not. I'm pretty sure that the Vanguard did not have the special rule in their codex entry.

It's under the Jump Pack entry in the wargear section. Very easy to miss but very much there

I saw that the rule was there, but I still think it would apply to units that specifically have the descent of angels rule. I could be wrong, but it will definitely warrant looking at the codex again.

Ok, let's put the Vanguard myth to rest.

The wargear entry for Jump Packs states rather clearly that any BA model/Unit with a jump pack has the Descent of Angels special rule. I could quote the relevent section exactly, but I'm not sure if I am allowed to do that or not so I won't risk it. With that in mind, here is how it breaks down:

Descent of Angels is an army special rule that is located on page 23 of the codex in the army special rules section. In the Jump Pack entry in the wargear/equipment section of the codex it states that any BA model with a pack has the Descent of Angels special rule, and then references page 23.

Also, the only units with Descent of Angels listed as a special rule in their specific unit entry are those who come standard with Jump Packs. Anything that has an option to buy a Jump Pack does not list the special rule in its unit entry. By purchasing a Jump Pack for the model/unit it will gain the Descent of Angels special rule as per the entry in the equipment section.

Caffran9 wrote:Ok, let's put the Vanguard myth to rest.

The wargear entry for Jump Packs states rather clearly that any BA model/Unit with a jump pack has the Descent of Angels special rule. I could quote the relevent section exactly, but I'm not sure if I am allowed to do that or not so I won't risk it. With that in mind, here is how it breaks down:

Descent of Angels is an army special rule that is located on page 23 of the codex in the army special rules section. In the Jump Pack entry in the wargear/equipment section of the codex it states that any BA model with a pack has the Descent of Angels special rule, and then references page 23.

Also, the only units with Descent of Angels listed as a special rule in their specific unit entry are those who come standard with Jump Packs. Anything that has an option to buy a Jump Pack does not list the special rule in its unit entry. By purchasing a Jump Pack for the model/unit it will gain the Descent of Angels special rule as per the entry in the equipment section.

Ok... with that being said where does it say you can assualt out of DS? I flipped through the codex front to back and never saw anything that stated that, and even the store manager said they could not... I must have missed it? The LR rules specifically state you cannot assualt out of DS eventhough the transport is an assualt vehicle. It says that word for word.

The Vanguard get the "heroic intervention" rule that allows them to assault out of DS.

Normally, You can't assault with a unit on the same turn that it enters the battlefield via Deepstrike. Vanguard Veterans have a unique special rule called "Heroic Intervention" that allows them to charge the turn they deepstrike. The Vanguard Vets in the vanilla codex also have this rule.

Explain the Vanguard "thing" for me if you don't mind, because I completely missed it when reading lol... Must have been my hands trembling too much from holding such awesomeness =)


-Ok that explains it... thank you =)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So back to Mephy, if he can't join a squad and he gets no invul save... how do you soak wounds around him to ensure he survives? He has a +2 save but against PW or ap1 he will take some damage... any thoughts?

You have to move him correctly.. Hes not a MC and can be hidden very easily. If you keep him near a priest hes basically immune to anything AP3. Or kick someone out of their transports, he doesnt need a land raider as he can move 12" with psychic test, fleet and charge

Basically you just need to be very precise with your movement. He's probably the hardest hitting character in the game in terms of sheer strength of attacks, reliability and SPEED.. Yes hes not as tough as abaddon or swarm lord in CC, but he can do a ton of damage. Be precise and he'll destroy what you point him at

He's fragile in the sense that he can't join a unit and doesn't have an invulnerable save, but his statline is extremely durable. T6 with 5 wounds is nothing to scoff at, and he's most likely going to be swinging in combat with S10 and preferred enemy. He is also not an MC and his model is a normal SM sized dude, so he is very easy to hide or at least get cover saves for all the time. You can hide him behind your Rhinos and stuff and block LoS to him completely as well. He can also get rides from empty transports if you want. He can also get FC/FNP when he's within 6" of a Priest for added fun times. As Kirasu said, if you can be careful with him and set up his charges with precision, he should probably wreck whatever you send him at (within some reason of course). I personally am not completely sold on his use, especially when a Reclusiarch is 1/2 the points. He is definitely a CC monster though, and one of, if not the most feared character in the game in terms of sheer CC power.

Mephiston is going to be of great use against armies with few, elite units.

Against armies with effective MSU builds and the ability to put a good amount of high-strength AP1/2 on the table, he's going to wreck one, unimportant, inexpensive target then get blasted off the table.

That sums him up pretty well, and is a very large part of why I'm not really sure if I find him worth including in my army or not. He also costs as much as a Land Raider and in an army where everything costs a rather fair amount of points to get, I struggle to justify allocating 250 points to him.

Zarynterk wrote:The 250 point Meph is ridiculous... except for one facet, he is not an IC anymore which means he cannot join a squad... so much for soaking extra wounds around him. Anyone have any ideas with this one strat wise?

Any thoughts?

Does he have any special protection versus a Force Weapon, a Diresword, or their nefarious cousins that instant kill a model under specific conditions?

Several, actually. First, he's T6. The vast majority of force weapons (save GKGM and Libby Dread) are going to wound on rolls of '6' only.

Second, he's I7 with grenades. Again the vastest majority of force weapons are I5 or lower. Slaaneshi Sorcs can pull off I6, but still not high enough.

Third, psychic hood. If you want to force weapon Meph, you've got to beat his hood.

Fourth, the Transfixing Gaze ability that forces most psychic ICs to test at Ld6 or worse, or they suffer a massive debuff to their stat line.

Fifth, he's a S6+ close combat powerhouse that will absolutely wreck any force weapon wielder in CC.

Save for the Librarian Dread, there's little chance of living through Meph's I7 attacks, hitting and wounding successfully, beating the psychic hood, and actually pulling off the Ld test to use the force weapon.

Tyranid Warriors attacking with mass dual boneswords have pretty good odds of crumping him, but this build is rather rare and if Meph is S10 he could very well ID them all before they attack.

Well with that being said Mephiston is bad arse, and will be apart of my armies 1500 pts and larger... Maybe even 1250 =)

Is he Leadership 10?

If so, it's an extremely unlikely possibility but a Dire Avenger Exarch with a Diresword could kill him. Since almost no one takes such an Exarch, I guess it's a 1000:1 shot.

But in CC, Meph would be unlikely to kill all 9 Dire Avengers so the Exarch would return three power weapon attacks (four if the Eldar charged). He would hit Meph on fours and only wound on a six. Meph would take a leadership check for each wound. If Meph failed any leadership test, he would die.

It's a highly unlikely scenario, but not bad for a 34 point Exarch.

My poor IG can only try to shoot Meph to death. A canny opponent can make that extremely difficult for me. Perhaps I'll have to tarpit him. How many attacks does he get?

of course hes LD 10..

On the subject of DA exarchs.. no its not very good for a 34 point model.. No one takes dire swords for a reason. If you want to do good in CC you take shimmershield and a power weapon not a dire sword. That has an actual useful effect against big baddies.

Tarpit him with IG? In order to tarpit him you're gonna need one of two things

1 ) an IG unit that moves faster than he does and can assault (there are none besides rough riders which are NOT tarpits)

2 ) a bad player who lets you do such a thing with a slower unit

Anyway not sure why IG is even brought up.. You dont need mephiston to kill guardsmen.. virtually any SM character is "scary" to guard if it gets to your lines

Id be more concerned about frag cannons, flamestorm cannons and fast predators that blow through chimeras and artillery

swarmlord with lashwip bodyguard can kill him pretty easy. matter of fact swarmlord with lashwip bodyguard can kill any IC in the game pretty easy that I can think of.

sourclams wrote:Several, actually. First, he's T6. The vast majority of force weapons (save GKGM and Libby Dread) are going to wound on rolls of '6' only.

Second, he's I7 with grenades. Again the vastest majority of force weapons are I5 or lower. Slaaneshi Sorcs can pull off I6, but still not high enough.

Third, psychic hood. If you want to force weapon Meph, you've got to beat his hood.

Fourth, the Transfixing Gaze ability that forces most psychic ICs to test at Ld6 or worse, or they suffer a massive debuff to their stat line.

Fifth, he's a S6+ close combat powerhouse that will absolutely wreck any force weapon wielder in CC.

Save for the Librarian Dread, there's little chance of living through Meph's I7 attacks, hitting and wounding successfully, beating the psychic hood, and actually pulling off the Ld test to use the force weapon.

Tyranid Warriors attacking with mass dual boneswords have pretty good odds of crumping him, but this build is rather rare and if Meph is S10 he could very well ID them all before they attack.

let's hope he does not run into wraithguard then.....thankfully they are rare...

freddieyu1 wrote:

sourclams wrote:Several, actually. First, he's T6. The vast majority of force weapons (save GKGM and Libby Dread) are going to wound on rolls of '6' only.

Second, he's I7 with grenades. Again the vastest majority of force weapons are I5 or lower. Slaaneshi Sorcs can pull off I6, but still not high enough.

Third, psychic hood. If you want to force weapon Meph, you've got to beat his hood.

Fourth, the Transfixing Gaze ability that forces most psychic ICs to test at Ld6 or worse, or they suffer a massive debuff to their stat line.

Fifth, he's a S6+ close combat powerhouse that will absolutely wreck any force weapon wielder in CC.

Save for the Librarian Dread, there's little chance of living through Meph's I7 attacks, hitting and wounding successfully, beating the psychic hood, and actually pulling off the Ld test to use the force weapon.

Tyranid Warriors attacking with mass dual boneswords have pretty good odds of crumping him, but this build is rather rare and if Meph is S10 he could very well ID them all before they attack.

let's hope he does not run into wraithguard then.....thankfully they are rare...

The wraithguard have virtually no chance of getting to shoot mephiston before he assaults and kills them all.

Wraithguard + Wave Serpent = Dead Mephiston

Sounds like a job for a Broodlord with Adrenal Glands (initiative 8) and Implant Attack (instant death). That's almost certainly the cheapest way to have a reasonably sure chance of offing him...

Sounds like a job for a Broodlord with Adrenal Glands (initiative 8) and Implant Attack (instant death). That's almost certainly the cheapest way to have a reasonably sure chance of offing him...

I'd disagree considering the broodlord still needs to get that charge on a meph that is surrounded by models not part of his unit preventing you from getting into base to base with him. Also if there is a priest arround he running at you with I8 on the charge as well.

Hmm, and no tank shock for nids -- sounds tricky!

Unless he can cast unlimited psychic powers a turn not sure how he is going to use his force weapon to ID a squad of nid warriors, let alone use his force weapon once after he buffs his attacks etc from psychic powers.

also mephiston cannot join a unit....