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I think a lot of attention is being paid to Meph obviously because of how nasty he can potentially be. However, I think the entire codex is pretty broken, it will be interesting to see what defensive strategies are devised to deal with it.

Zarynterk wrote:I think a lot of attention is being paid to Meph obviously because of how nasty he can potentially be. However, I think the entire codex is pretty broken, it will be interesting to see what defensive strategies are devised to deal with it.

i dont think its broken one bit. All the goodies have a high price tag attached to them and at the end of the day they are still just marines and will die to everything that kills any other marine.

Meph against 250 points' worth of TH/SS Terminators will die horribly.

Sanguinary Guard are also horribly costed at 40 ppm, especially since they only have 2 attacks and the only transport they can get crammed into is the 200 point Flying Chimera.

Honor Guard are no better than before, and Vanguard still pay stupid points for jet packs.

The other options are quite potent, but fairly priced for their power level.

i dont think its broken one bit. All the goodies have a high price tag attached to them and at the end of the day they are still just marines and will die to everything that kills any other marine.

I think 60 assualt marines potentially all with feel no pain and furious charge and melta pistols, and a powerful HQ to lead them for 1500 points is pretty broken sounding to me

BA will be stupidly power min/maxed army. If you just concentrate on the stuff that is too good for the points and just ignore the overly expensive stuff, its going to be hard to loose with the codex.

However, if you spread the love around and take units that look fun or follow some sort of theme, the army will be competitive and not nearly over the top because the expensive stuff is rather expensive.

Mephiston does not have an invulnerble. He isn't worth it. The end.

sourclams wrote:Meph against 250 points' worth of TH/SS Terminators will die horribly.

Sanguinary Guard are also horribly costed at 40 ppm, especially since they only have 2 attacks and the only transport they can get crammed into is the 200 point Flying Chimera.

Honor Guard are no better than before, and Vanguard still pay stupid points for jet packs.

The other options are quite potent, but fairly priced for their power level.

Honor guard are MUCH better than before.. I dont understand why others arent seeing this heh

For 115 points you get a sanguinary priest which is base cost 50 + 4 additional veterans which do not take up a FOC. That means those vets only cost 16 points a model. If you give them jump packs then they only cost 22 points a model. Put them in a transport and you can give them 4 meltas (however, id probably do 2 meltas and a power fist for 160 if in a rhino) for 155 points which is a pretty good deal considering you're getting a sanguinary priest as well.

Dont underestimate the power of a unit that not only doesnt cost any FOC slots but gives you a free elite as well.

About vanguard, they are better than SM as well.. 10 points cheaper as a unit and you get to reroll reserves and scatter 1d6. Is it worth 30 points a model? Maybe not but they ARE better so I wouldnt just dismiss them as SM clones

Mephiston is simply a big guy killer.. If you have a meta game where people bring demon princes, greater demons, hive tyrants and stuff like that or use small elite units then he will dominate..

Sanguinary guard.. yeah no saving them I think

I agree on the honor guard. I wish they could take bikes as they would make a sick biker command squad with furious charge and a reclusiarch or a libby giving them preferred enemy. Oh well.

sourclams wrote:Meph against 250 points' worth of TH/SS Terminators will die horribly.

That is a pretty specific scenario, against most anything else in cc he will roll them. So IMO quite worth the cost.

Zarynterk wrote:

sourclams wrote:Meph against 250 points' worth of TH/SS Terminators will die horribly.

That is a pretty specific scenario, against most anything else in cc he will roll them. So IMO quite worth the cost.

Yeah, and it would take some bad luck and/or playing to get Mephiston in combat with such a squad of Terminators. If the Termies are getting close, Mephiston can just bounce away....

The whole point is that the options are good, not broken. Ignore all the loud noises and fear of the new codex.

sourclams wrote:The whole point is that the options are good, not broken. Ignore all the loud noises and fear of the new codex.

Bingo. This same stuff happens with every new book, there is all kinds of hype and crazy "OMGBROKEN!" nonsense going around and then in reality, its not so broken at all. This BA codex is nothing different.

So from what I gather, Blood Angels are even more elite than "normal" space marines and pay the cost via increased poit for upgrades etc.

Regarding Mephiston; how many attacks does he have? And how would he go against a 30 strong mob of orks with nob and PK? Because that is all I'm interested in...

Oh...and my POV, the new Blood Angels are going t attract a lot of new 10-12 year old gamers...read into that how you wish.

why would mephiston get into combat with such a unit? Such absurd scenarios. Youd suffer tons of flamer hits first, and then he'd go in to kill your warboss.. Yeah I guess if you're planning Little Timmy the 10 year old BA player he'd use mephiston to charge 30 boyz

BA doesnt really pay any extra cost for being elite except for fast vehicles which is fine, its like an upgrade.. They're similar to SM but with their own unique options that replace some of the SM stuff

I don't know that I would refer to the BAs as more elite than other chapters, but I do agree that the new BA rules make them more attractive to me than Ultramarines or any other standard codex list. Who wouldn't want faster Rhinos, Baal Predators, and more accurate deep strikers? Seems to me that BAs got lots of new bonuses and no negatives. The Death Company can be a limitation but you have the option of taking it or leaving it.

Kirasu wrote:why would mephiston get into combat with such a unit? Such absurd scenarios. Youd suffer tons of flamer hits first, and then he'd go in to kill your warboss.. Yeah I guess if you're planning Little Timmy the 10 year old BA player he'd use mephiston to charge 30 boyz

BA doesnt really pay any extra cost for being elite except for fast vehicles which is fine, its like an upgrade.. They're similar to SM but with their own unique options that replace some of the SM stuff

Why are you getting defensive? I only asked a question.

And why would it be absurd. I've read enough info on here to notice that foot-slogging horde orks are a viable and more often than not successful army with 30 strong mobs a staple part of said foot slogging army. To say that said ork mob would "suffer tons of flamer hits first" then Mephiston would "go in to kill your warboss" is probably more absurd an assumption.

As to the points/rules for BA. I find that typical GW. It seems to me they are getting closer to 2nd Edition and primping their money makers - Space Marines - to make, well, more money. Fair enough though, good business model!

sourclams wrote:The whole point is that the options are good, not broken. Ignore all the loud noises and fear of the new codex.

It bears repeating.

Seems to me that BAs got lots of new bonuses and no negatives.

This also bears repeating

Minus the fact that there is no Stormraven release or even a photo of it in the Codex, I think this is a very interesting codex. For years, it has just seemed that there were the following Marines:

Gray, Red, Black, Blue.

GW (finally) has seemed to break away from a lot of their old dogma and has produced a very unique codex that will play very different than other Marine chapters.

I've been really pleased with the overall quality of codexes throughout the entire 5th edition. Admittedly, there have been a few snags here and there, but GW has tried to rectify those issues via FAQ/Errata.

The BA codex is an interesting read with a lot of various playable combos; something I think a lot of older codexes lacked. If I weren't in the middle of painting my SW army (another great codex), I'd be building a BA army.

Like many other codexes, it seems easy to get all wrapped up in the uber characters, but I think the real strength in this codex will not rely in Special Characters (or Mephiston). While they are pretty neat, I just don't see spending the points on some of them in order to have a playable army.

The negatives include the loss of stuff like thunderfire cannons (!!!) and apparently some think ironclads are better than furiosos somehow despite being worse in virtually every aspect

Also, having to *pay* for fast vehicles is seen as a negative which I also dont understand.. I bet all SW players would take such a harsh disadvantage like paying to make their rhinos fast to get those grey hunters up the board quicker

Ive been playing BA through every single codex and this book doesnt seem to have many weaknessess.. besides having to convert some stuff (already converted librarian dreads up)

Nurglitch wrote:

sourclams wrote:The whole point is that the options are good, not broken. Ignore all the loud noises and fear of the new codex.

It bears repeating.

And more repeating.

Can anyone tell me a reason to use the SM codex over the BA codex? If I take my current marine list with tactical squads and vindicators and predators, and simply make everything fast, and have a 16% chance for each squad to get FC and fearless. What am I losing?

Volkov wrote:Can anyone tell me a reason to use the SM codex over the BA codex? If I take my current marine list with tactical squads and vindicators and predators, and simply make everything fast, and have a 16% chance for each squad to get FC and fearless. What am I losing?

your going to lose something to make up for the points increase on the fast vehicles.

Khornatedemon wrote:

Volkov wrote:Can anyone tell me a reason to use the SM codex over the BA codex? If I take my current marine list with tactical squads and vindicators and predators, and simply make everything fast, and have a 16% chance for each squad to get FC and fearless. What am I losing?

your going to lose something to make up for the points increase on the fast vehicles.

Not really losing much with the points.

Linky.
In a word: Vulkan.

In more words:
Skimmer blocking. Not as efficient out of BA. Baals beat Speeders for FA slots, but you lose the skimmerblock utility.
Points/slot efficient Hammernators. BA need to do the "Templar Build" of 5 Terms, 3 TLLCs, 2 TH/SS w/ either Libby w/ Rage or Reclusiarch. Sanguinary Priests for FC and FNP. That's 2 elites slots right there. Only 1 Furioso Libby, and if you want a second Term squad you're SOL on the wonderful (IMO) Libby dread.
No taking LRs as HS. While this may seem inconsequential, it ups the cost and effectiveness of an LR. If you want to only transport the squad you bought the Raider for, fine. But there are times when you want to deploy something else in the Raider. It comes up-rarely, but it does.
No MM bunkers: Fast cheap Razorbacks with assault squads are awesome. I'm loving them in playtesting. But it does leave a gap in anti-heavy tank in the 6" to 12" range the Vanilla doesn't have. To get that LR about to smash your face, you have to voluntarily demech. Which sucks.
And of course: no TLing all that melta. If BA had a Vulkan equivalent, there'd never be any reason to ever play Vanilla again. Thankfully, GW got this.

You also lose Combat Tactics, which you'll want on those Tactical Squads, And They Shall Know No Fear 16% of the time.

Has anyone else noticed that Mephiston is sort of like a baby Keeper of Secrets?

Aura of Acquiesence::Frag Grenades + Defensive Grenades
Fleet::Fleet
Transfixing Gaze::Transfixing Gaze
Etc...?

Nurglitch wrote:You also lose Combat Tactics, which you'll want on those Tactical Squads, And They Shall Know No Fear 16% of the time.

Has anyone else noticed that Mephiston is sort of like a baby Keeper of Secrets, except made of fail because he lacks Eternal Warrior and an Invulnerable save?

Fixed that for you. Anyway, the glaring weakness of Codex: Pretty Boys is that most players are going to focus on its strengths, i.e. assault. Which means they're more than likely relying on meltaguns and those hauntingly stupid Infernus Pistols (3" Melta range? Really, GW?) Now, can any Chaos players here tell me why Codex: Thorpe And Cavatore Made A Boom-Boom has trouble dealing with transports? (Hint: It's because using short ranged anti-tank weaponry to open buses is like fighting fire with napalm.)

Can anyone tell me a reason to use the SM codex over the BA codex? If I take my current marine list with tactical squads and vindicators and predators, and simply make everything fast, and have a 16% chance for each squad to get FC and fearless. What am I losing?

Now just my opinion but here's my reasons:

Marine biker army (or in general scoring bikers) not possible with BA.
Vulkan (already mentioned but worth repeating)
Pedro (still a strong option if army is built right)
Null zone (amazing power for all comers that BA powers don't match)
Cheaper (and with vulkan more deadly) TH/SS terminators
Elite shooty dreads (e.g. elite slot has better long range shooty options for the SAFH build).
thunderfire cannon (I like it some don't)
Landspeeder storm (not my cup o tea but it is useful)
Less cost tied in mech means more points for other things.

If none of that matters to you and you have no ties to a particular chapter then maybe you should switch to BA.

winterman wrote:

Can anyone tell me a reason to use the SM codex over the BA codex? If I take my current marine list with tactical squads and vindicators and predators, and simply make everything fast, and have a 16% chance for each squad to get FC and fearless. What am I losing?

Now just my opinion but here's my reasons:

Marine biker army (or in general scoring bikers) not possible with BA. Gak.
Vulkan (already mentioned but worth repeating) This is true.
Pedro (still a strong option if army is built right) Hell no.
Null zone (amazing power for all comers that BA powers don't match) Another valid point
Cheaper (and with vulkan more deadly) TH/SS terminators The points you save elsewhere you spend here, so not too much of a deal
Elite shooty dreads (e.g. elite slot has better long range shooty options for the SAFH build). See post above. This is true.
thunderfire cannon (I like it some don't) The model is horrible, but other that that it's very metagame dependent.
Landspeeder storm (not my cup o tea but it is useful) Another point for you, my frosty friend.
Less cost tied in mech means more points for other things. But mech is king is 5th, so what would you spend it on?

If none of that matters to you and you have no ties to a particular chapter then maybe you should switch to BA.

But mech is king is 5th, so what would you spend it on?

More mech?

winterman wrote:

But mech is king is 5th, so what would you spend it on?

More mech?

Fair enough.