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yayyy honor guard are gone, there goes my DOA melta fun time suicide squad. well at least i'll have 5 more Jump marines for.......... oh wait........ lol.

I have just caught up with the 8 pages that were posted since last night. I knew that there would be changes with this new Codex, and I wasn't of the opinion that they would all be positive. I definitely hear people's concerns that the identity of the Blood Angels is changing, but I am not convinced that their fluff is being ignored or ruined. Certainly when you look back at HH Blood Angels, (like the novel "Fear to Tread") they were not super Jump-Pack oriented. They were, in fact, more like World Eaters in a lot of regards--formidable and ferocious close-combat troops.

Indeed, I might argue that GW is trying to focus the fluff and give the other Space Marine Chapters (who people on this thread have lumped together) more individuality and appeal in their own right, even though they have not had their own Codex for years. Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and now Blood Angels have all retained their own books, and they do have individual traits and units that appeal. I think that the current fluff indicates that it is the Raven Guard who are super jump-pack oriented, with the "Winged Deliverance" Chapter Tactic. So, GW may be trying to move things back in that direction. Now, you might not like this, and as pointed out, it contradicts recent editions, but it could be intentional and does line up with BA fluff.

I am glad they gave our HQ the IC rule; that was a huge hole, and the points decreases on our Chapter-specific units (Sanguinary Guard and DC) help a little. This does lead me to think that I will need to run Dante and Corbulo and the other special characters, and that's Fluffy and all right with me too. I'm sad that there are not (yet) any other units, but am also confident that I can use my Elite and Heavy Support sections to incorporate the models I already own and have painted. Honestly, I have more of a "little of everything" approach with my collection, which is not Spam or Cheese and doesn't win me a lot of competitive games, but is what I feel is more "true" to an army in the 40k universe. So I am happy that I will get to trot out more of my collection (put those Terminators in the Land Raider, and yes, you need some foundation-of-every-Space-Marine-force Tactical Squads now, etc) and see what happens.

The thing that bothers me most about it is this: The BA are known for using Assault Marines. Not that they have more than anyone else, just that they use them more than other Chapters. Everyone knows it, even GW knows it .... the Codex has a freaking ASSAULT MARINE on the FRONT!!!!!!!

Now ... all Blood Angels players have grown accustomed to using RAS as troops as a staple. If there were no leaks about what was going on and all that we had as far as a rumour goes was ... a picture of the codex front, and I were to buy it, knowing for sure that RAS would be a troop choice because of the cover. Open it up and .... Tacs and Scouts as the only troop choices. I would walk right back into the GW store and demand a refund. I would not have furious charge .... I would have rage.

But...but... they want you to buy the new tactical kit! If someone who only had assault marines as troops, they're now forced to feed GW's bottom line beyond just the codex.

No real access to better AA is quite annoying. Perhaps that's just because my other army is GK...haha. I'm okay with tacs and scouts as troops though, I usually did that anyway .

Any idea if drop pods are in Fast Attack a la Space Wolves?

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
The thing that bothers me most about it is this: The BA are known for using Assault Marines. Not that they have more than anyone else, just that they use them more than other Chapters. Everyone knows it, even GW knows it .... the Codex has a freaking ASSAULT MARINE on the FRONT!!!!!!!

Now ... all Blood Angels players have grown accustomed to using RAS as troops as a staple. If there were no leaks about what was going on and all that we had as far as a rumour goes was ... a picture of the codex front, and I were to buy it, knowing for sure that RAS would be a troop choice because of the cover. Open it up and .... Tacs and Scouts as the only troop choices. I would walk right back into the GW store and demand a refund. I would not have furious charge .... I would have rage.

Because the sales department says what goes, not the rules department!

I am still going to buy the codex, but if I read through it and see nothing that I am willing to change to as far as my army goes .... I am done.

I started playing 40k because if DoW 1 & 2. When 2 came out I used Thaddeus ( Assualt Marine) and put a JP on Vanilla Force Commander. I absolutely fell in love with the RAS. I honestly did not care if I won or lost, I just wanted to move an entire army of JP Marines around.

Got used to losing when 6th hit and that continued so far in 7th. I won some but, you cant DS almost an entire army and expect to win when you play against mostly Tau and Eldar. I honestly feel like GW is just asking me to open my checkbook and write them a blank check. I would have to buyatleast 3 or 4 tac squads just to field an army now .... NOPE. If I wanted to use Tac Squads I would play as Smurfs.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
. the Codex has a freaking ASSAULT MARINE on the FRONT!!!!!!!

Um, he's VAS not RAS.

Bye to the mighty ASM squads on fast razorbacks as troops choice and one, if not the most important reason to ever play BA over vanilla.

Seriously, FML

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
I am still going to buy the codex, but if I read through it and see nothing that I am willing to change to as far as my army goes .... I am done.

I started playing 40k because if DoW 1 & 2. When 2 came out I used Thaddeus ( Assualt Marine) and put a JP on Vanilla Force Commander. I absolutely fell in love with the RAS. I honestly did not care if I won or lost, I just wanted to move an entire army of JP Marines around.

Got used to losing when 6th hit and that continued so far in 7th. I won some but, you cant DS almost an entire army and expect to win when you play against mostly Tau and Eldar. I honestly feel like GW is just asking me to open my checkbook and write them a blank check. I would have to buyatleast 3 or 4 tac squads just to field an army now .... NOPE. If I wanted to use Tac Squads I would play as Smurfs.

May I suggest you obtain a "digital preview copy" and check it out before you give them any cash whatsoever? Then, if the sky hasn't fallen, obtain the real copy.

Newspaper over the nose, it's the only way they'll learn.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
The thing that bothers me most about it is this: The BA are known for using Assault Marines. Not that they have more than anyone else, just that they use them more than other Chapters. Everyone knows it, even GW knows it .... the Codex has a freaking ASSAULT MARINE on the FRONT!!!!!!!

Now ... all Blood Angels players have grown accustomed to using RAS as troops as a staple. If there were no leaks about what was going on and all that we had as far as a rumour goes was ... a picture of the codex front, and I were to buy it, knowing for sure that RAS would be a troop choice because of the cover. Open it up and .... Tacs and Scouts as the only troop choices. I would walk right back into the GW store and demand a refund. I would not have furious charge .... I would have rage.

Because the sales department says what goes, not the rules department!

Yeah ... this is a great way to shut sales down and then .... "Blood Angels sold poorly, unlike Space Wolves, roll them into C:SM."

If they had gutted the SW codex like they just did to the BA Codex, sales would have been non-existent and everyone would have freaked out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arschbombe wrote:

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
. the Codex has a freaking ASSAULT MARINE on the FRONT!!!!!!!

Um, he's VAS not RAS.

um, still an Assualt Marine .... yes?

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
The thing that bothers me most about it is this: The BA are known for using Assault Marines. Not that they have more than anyone else, just that they use them more than other Chapters. Everyone knows it, even GW knows it .... the Codex has a freaking ASSAULT MARINE on the FRONT!!!!!!!

It never occured to me, but that is sorta funny about the cover.

As much as I don't like the new direction, they've been very consistent in their approach to making every new codex more bland than its previous edition. The "glass half-full" voice says that they realize the mess the core rules are right now and, they have a master plan to fix it. The cynic in me says that they realize the mess the rules are in right now, so making everything milk-toast is the best way to keep the whole game from crashing into a huge heap.

I don't mind the FOC swap from a fluff perspective, because truthfully BA don't use assault marines any more than other chapters do. Buuuut, my heart goes out to all the people who spent so much money building up there armies over the years, only for lots of it to be invalidated.

Unbound is the only reprieve- adding in some DLC formation that allows extra assault marines (which would admittedly be cool, especially if the formation special effect was something like "all come in on the same turn" or "scatter only 1d6'') is not something to be proud of, because it's a shameless money grab.

I reject the notion that this is GW's attempt to "rein in" the codex though. GW has proven time and again that they don't give a gak about things like fluff or a faction's image.

So have we gotten a formation? Haven't seen it mentioned, but that seems to be one of the things that was ongoing in the 7th Ed books.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
The thing that bothers me most about it is this: The BA are known for using Assault Marines. Not that they have more than anyone else, just that they use them more than other Chapters. Everyone knows it, even GW knows it .... the Codex has a freaking ASSAULT MARINE on the FRONT!!!!!!!

Now ... all Blood Angels players have grown accustomed to using RAS as troops as a staple. If there were no leaks about what was going on and all that we had as far as a rumour goes was ... a picture of the codex front, and I were to buy it, knowing for sure that RAS would be a troop choice because of the cover. Open it up and .... Tacs and Scouts as the only troop choices. I would walk right back into the GW store and demand a refund. I would not have furious charge .... I would have rage.

Absolutely 100% wrong.

Just because blood angels like to assault, does not make them 'use more' assault troops. You seriously cannot use the fluff to defend you either, there are 180 assault marines in a standard codex format space marine chapter, Blood Angels are a codex format space marine chapter. That is less than 20% of a full strength chapter, if you take into account Vanguards, then there are about 20%.

When a blood angel company goes on a mission, they don't tell all their tac marines to suit up in assault gear and get down to business, they have 20 AS marines, 20 out of 100.

Just because players abused AS marines as troops choice, packing in 60 of them does not mean you can somehow justify it as fluff that you should have them as troops now and forever. Otherwise you can justify that riptide spam is fluffy.

Blood angels ARE an assault based army, but they are not composed of nearly complete assault troops, yeah their dev squads of chomping at the bit to go to town in combat also, but they aren't going to throw away their heavy weapons to suit up with chainsword and bolt pistol.

Blood Angels have been restored to how they should have been. A codex chapter with certain buffs for their assault troops and also a few extra assault orientated units, but still largely a codex based chapter.

 Arschbombe wrote:

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
. the Codex has a freaking ASSAULT MARINE on the FRONT!!!!!!!

Um, he's VAS not RAS.

Yup. Gold helmet not yellow.

I guess I am not terribly butthurt over the FoC changes to BA. I have a spare Rhino for the Tactical Squad and will be running Cassor the Damned as the other troop for now. Will probably get another Tactical Squad anyway. If Death Company still get to do a 30 man unit, I may field more than just the five of them I have right now. Sanguinary Guard being up to 10 man squad makes things okay as well. I am hoping the Sang Priest behaves more like a Techmarine where you can take one per HQ.

Overall, now that I am over the initial shock, I think I will be able to make this new army work. Still wish they left Assault Squads in the Troops section though. The fact you can do up to four Elites is going to be okay. I will just use an Aegis Defense Line for AA.

Using a Jump Chaplain with the Relic that makes scatter not suck and running Dante with a Sanguinary Guard will be one of the things I do.

@endless waltz

I never said that they have more AS than another chapter, I said that they USE them more than other chapters. The fluff backs this up. Pg. 25 of the current codex shows this. They go from scouts to AS. it goes on to say that the AS will likely stay at full strength when all other facets of a company are woefully undermanned. I did not write it, GW did, and it happens to fit the way I like to play my army.

So..... no, I am not 100% wrong.

For what its worth, I DO think this is GW pulling back in codexs and killing off codex creep. In fact you would be hard pressed to name a OP codex since Eldar. with all of them being fairly balanced but blander.

I just think this was a misstep by GW killing off what many players of the BA had come to love, its not even OP, just something most of us love. I also think it was a HUGE miscalculation by GW to assume that we wouldn't buy a new Jump marines box (due to having too many) and so go with a new tac. squad and change the rules up instead to force sales of those new boxes.

Its not all bad and there is some good stuff, I like the formation and Dante, however .....once again I'll state that this lends HUGE credence to the argument that we should fold right into the Vanilla dex.

even I'm really wondering if what we gain by not being in the vanilla is worth what we got this time and I've been a HUGE HUGE supporter of us being separate but now...... I dono , I've just never lost that hope before.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
@endless waltz

I never said that they have more AS than another chapter, I said that they USE them more than other chapters. The fluff backs this up. Pg. 25 of the current codex shows this. They go from scouts to AS. it goes on to say that the AS will likely stay at full strength when all other facets of a company are woefully undermanned. I did not write it, GW did, and it happens to fit the way I like to play my army.

So..... no, I am not 100% wrong.

That is the same as any other chapter. And all that means, is there are 20 assault marines per battle company max, unless it's the assault reserve company.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Absolutely 100% wrong.

Just because blood angels like to assault, does not make them 'use more' assault troops. You seriously cannot use the fluff to defend you either, there are 180 assault marines in a standard codex format space marine chapter, Blood Angels are a codex format space marine chapter. That is less than 20% of a full strength chapter, if you take into account Vanguards, then there are about 20%.

When a blood angel company goes on a mission, they don't tell all their tac marines to suit up in assault gear and get down to business, they have 20 marines, 20 out of 100.

Just because players abused AS marines as troops choice, packing in 60 of them does not mean you can somehow justify it as fluff that you should have them as troops now and forever.

Blood angels ARE an assault based army, but they are not composed of nearly complete assault troops, yeah their dev squads of chomping at the bit to go to town in combat also, but they aren't going to throw away their heavy weapons to suit up with chainsword and bolt pistol.

Blood Angels have been restored to how they should have been. A codex chapter with certain buffs for their assault troops and also a few extra assault orientated units, but still largely a codex based chapter.

Actually, he's not as wrong as you think he is. Most marine chapters have their promoted scouts to to Devastator squads next. Blood Angels send them straight to being assault marines. So while their organization may not be non-codex, when they take losses, the assault squads are the most easily filled. Then there's the issue of the chapter master himself being a jump pack marine. The Horus Heresy fluff, while it didn't give a great amount of specifics about the organization of the legion, does mention EVERY 5 SECONDS or so that the Blood Angels are known for massive scale drop pod and jump pack melee assaults. Then of course, you look at all the heraldry such as the drop with wings, symbolizing flight, the primarch that had wings, all the guys in the chapter who like flight because the primarch had wings, and even all the marketing for the chapter. They specifically mentioned wings and such on the WD cover.

For anyone who played BA in the last half-decade because they wanted to run assault marines, this was a betrayal.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
@endless waltz

I never said that they have more AS than another chapter, I said that they USE them more than other chapters. The fluff backs this up. Pg. 25 of the current codex shows this. They go from scouts to AS. it goes on to say that the AS will likely stay at full strength when all other facets of a company are woefully undermanned. I did not write it, GW did, and it happens to fit the way I like to play my army.

So..... no, I am not 100% wrong.

That is the same as any other chapter. And all that means, is there are 20 assault marines per battle company max, unless it's the assault reserve company.

No it is different than other chapters. Other chapters (not counting SW Codex) you go from scout to Dev, from Dev to AS, from AS to Tac.
BA go from scout to AS, and the fluff also says that many of them never leave the AS.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Just because players abused AS marines as troops choice, packing in 60 of them does not mean you can somehow justify it as fluff that you should have them as troops now and forever. Otherwise you can justify that riptide spam is fluffy.

Its not only about fluff, its about making BA competitive (or less crappy, because current Codex is arguably the worst codex) and this doesnt help AT ALL. We never wanted stupid tacticals with grav guns or heavy flamers, most of us just wanted some love for assault, and that includes keeping ASM and DC as troop choices and ofc a respective points reduction.

Army wide furious charge, the detachment granting +1 initiative to all models and Priests handing out FnP like candy screams drop pod assault to me.

Its like making grey knight terminators elite

 BlackArmour wrote:
however .....once again I'll state that this lends HUGE credence to the argument that we should fold right into the Vanilla dex.

even I'm really wondering if what we gain by not being in the vanilla is worth what we got this time and I've been a HUGE HUGE supporter of us being separate but now...... I dono , I've just never lost that hope before.

Death Company
Sanguinary Guard
Sanguinary Priests
Furioso Dreadnaught
Librarian Dreadnaught
Too many personailities to be vanilla (Dante, Tycho, Mephiston, Corbolo, Astrorath, Sanguinor, Gabriel)

Compared to Black Templars
1 unique troop choice

This is absolutely terrible on GW's part. Virtually every good thing about BA was nerfed and nothing to replace it.. Furious charge is NOT a useful addition in a game that is 90% shooting. The only saving grace I can see is that 40k no longer requires a coherent army, or a FOC. It's purely being designed around the philosophy of "Take whatever you want, we don't give a damn"

Noooooooooooooo! Oh, wait. I don't have the codex yet...

Blood Angels have been restored to how they should have been. A codex chapter with certain buffs for their assault troops and also a few extra assault orientated units, but still largely a codex based chapter.

One step closer towards putting all the Space Marine codex's into one book like Black Templar were.

I'm all for it.

I always ran Tacticals, and no more than 3 Assault squads, so this codex is nothing but good news.

Any word on if the Drop Pods are Fast Attack like Space Wolves ?