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Hi all.

I'm starting my first army and have decided on post heresy luna wolves. From what I've read (first 7 heresy books) it would not be too big a stretch to say Garviel Loken survived istavan and was later recovered. I felt what was supposed to be his death was left very open ended and had room for claiming his survival. I plan to field him as a chapter master and 3 honor guard who were also 10th company survivors of istavan.

Does anyone have corrections to my army lore backed up by actual lore?

Any constructive critisism, personal opinions or suggestions?

*let me clarify. It was my impression loken loved the luna wolves and was shamed by their fall. Therefore he renounced being a Son of Horus and when offered a chapter in return for his loyalty, chose to resurect the luna wolves to reclaim their honor.

I think it is a great idea if that's what you enjoy, with lots of space marine codexes out I think you are pretty much free to use anyone you want as it is concievable to think that that Loken could have gone in any direction. Personnaly I would use the vanilla marines codex if you are new to the hoppy as it is probably the most balanced and easiest to use. However it depends what flavour of army you want? Tell me what you want it to do and I might be able to provide a better selection.

I want to be very shooty with decent mobility and a small amount of assault for shielding shooters

on other forums:
Great feedback so far guys! After the bulk of posters voicing their opinions of the imperium not granting loken a chapter ill have to pick a new direction. I have to say I love garviel loken and am willing to
make assumptions in order to play him. I like the idea of a conglomeration of loyalist marines, betrayed by their chapters and consequently essentialy banished from service to the empire, waging a private war against the enemies of man acting solely on their honor.

How about that direction? Is it more believable in the lore?

In that case I would go for vanilla marines you can transport all your tac squads in razorbacks which makes them shooty and mobile or Rhinos if you prefer. Land Raiders for the mandatory Assault Termies and Drop Pods for Stern Guard and Dreadnaughts.

If you want to be shooty at close quarters check out the Space Wolves Tactica Article it emphasises their strengths well in this area.

I think the conglomeration idea is a really good one. It makes sense that there could be at least 1000 loyalists left over from the now chaos chapters, and with 10k years past the idea of them finding each other would make sense too.

Isn't that the rumoured plot of one of the upcoming HH books?

That Loken is still alive?

Platuan4th wrote:Isn't that the rumoured plot of one of the upcoming HH books?

That Loken is still alive?

Well, we haven't seen it as a rumored plot, but Dan Abnett is very insistent about it.

And I can't see them forming a Chapter out of "leftover loyal traitors" just because of the fact that we've seen that Horus and his followers did their damned best to make sure the loyalists died in "tragic accidents/circumstances" prior to the Heresy even beginning.

However most of the Heresy era is meant to be surrounded in a bit of myth so it is not beyond the realms of possibility that some of them survived. If even 50 loyal Lunar Wolves survived then 10,000 years is enough time to make a full chapter from their geneseed as long as they were careful with their engagements.

Okay I'm going with a mix of loyalist marines who were betrayed at itavan 3. Is there anyone who is very familiar with the details and names of all legions present who would like to help me out brainstorming? It's been so long since I read the books it would be a great help and time saver.

I believe the only chapters on Istivan 3 were lunar wolves, emprahs kids and the death guard both loyalists and traitors?

The rest were Istivan 5.

Mr-_-Flidd wrote:I believe the only chapters on Istivan 3 were lunar wolves, emprahs kids and the death guard both loyalists and traitors?

The rest were Istivan 5.

Plus World Eaters, no?

Forgot about Angron and his bunch of charming young Astrates!

Angron's legion was the only one to go completely over iirc

radiohazard wrote:Angron's legion was the only one to go completely over iirc

Not completely.

They had to kill off their Librarians and other loyalists.

Kanluwen wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:Isn't that the rumoured plot of one of the upcoming HH books?

That Loken is still alive?

Well, we haven't seen it as a rumored plot, but Dan Abnett is very insistent about it.

And I can't see them forming a Chapter out of "leftover loyal traitors" just because of the fact that we've seen that Horus and his followers did their damned best to make sure the loyalists died in "tragic accidents/circumstances" prior to the Heresy even beginning.

Insistent about Loken being alive, or dead?

That said, I think its pretty likely that a source - and potentially of a rather significant size - might be found from traitor legion garrisons stationed around different worlds, particularly those closer to Terra; after the wake of the heresy perhaps these units get absorbed into loyalist legions, or perhaps the entire 'Chapter system' is partially formed around the aim of what to do with the loyalist marines from the traitor legions.

Certainly, my own chapter's fluff is based around a combination of Ultramarines and Luna Wolves merged together to form a chapter.

I think it's unlikely that the imperium would forgive them. They aren't trusting people. So I think that sayiong they were brought back into the imperial fold is a bit too much of a stretch, but if they went maverek and maintained their alligiance to the emperer I'd find that almost plausible.

Nathaniel Garro and his lot were eventually forgiven and brought back into the fold, I see no reason why Lokken's lot wouldn't be forgiven. After all they were the first Astartes to fight against Horus and showed extreme dedication and Loyalty to the Throne despite the immense odds stacked against them.

I maintain that the imperium is way too suspitious and unforgiving. At least modern imperium.

That would be the modern Imperium as you have stated, Lokken and his lot would have been around while the Primarchs were still up and about. Some of them listened to reason.

Weren't they the Sons of Horus by the time of the Heresy anyway?

The Captain and the Astartes that went with Garro on the Eisenstien repainted their armor to the color of the Luna Wolves when they returned to Luna. I would assume that after the betrayal the surviving Sons of Horus would have repainted their armor to distance themselves from the traitor.

I believe the current train of thought is that the surviving members of the traitor Legions who survived became the foundations of the Grey Knights, as they were proven against Chaos, although that theory does have the flaw that the Knights are all psychers...

It's quite possible that there were loyalist units from all the Legions that survived, somewhow, just as all the loyal legions have lost members to Chaos. The trick is doing it in a way that makes sense...why has no one else ever heard of the surviving Luna Wolves after 10,000 years? Why have the bulk of the Black Legion not gone after them, since they'd see them as an embarassment at best?

I don't think all grey knights are phsycers. The basic battle brother has no force weapon or abbilities of any kind, plus in the book grey knights only higher ups have phycic abilities.

despoiler52 wrote:I don't think all grey knights are phsycers. The basic battle brother has no force weapon or abbilities of any kind, plus in the book grey knights only higher ups have phycic abilities.

Re-read the GK fluff. ALL GK's have psychic powers to some degree. The Aegis is provided by that Psychic ability. The longer you're a GK, the more you learn to develop it.

Carlovonsexron wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:Isn't that the rumoured plot of one of the upcoming HH books?

That Loken is still alive?

Well, we haven't seen it as a rumored plot, but Dan Abnett is very insistent about it.

And I can't see them forming a Chapter out of "leftover loyal traitors" just because of the fact that we've seen that Horus and his followers did their damned best to make sure the loyalists died in "tragic accidents/circumstances" prior to the Heresy even beginning.

Insistent about Loken being alive, or dead?

Abnett has repeatedly said "Loken isn't dead", but won't go into more detail than that.

despoiler52 wrote:I maintain that the imperium is way too suspitious and unforgiving. At least modern imperium.

Not quite accurate. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Mantis_Warriors for instance was given the chance for forgiveness and that incident happened long after the heresy. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Executioners and http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lamenters as well.

Since the loyalist members actually sided with the imperium and fought with them I doubt they'd even do a 100 year crusade. They would probably reform their members into new chapters to wipe out the memory of the traitors but I doubt they would excommunicate so many loyal space marines that stayed loyal when it mattered most.

They could well have been the founding members of the Inquisition and Grey Knights, of anyone in the Imperium they had the greatest knowledge of chaos and had proven resistant to it. All GK may be psykers now but I don't think they would have started that way. It'd take time to develop all the nifty psyker-related toys they have. Nt sure what the triggers would be to shift over to a more psykic heavy force: greater effectiveness against daemons?

For what it's worth: "Flight of the Eisenstein" kinda/sorta implies that Garro is part of the foundation of the Inquisition's Chamber Militants.