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Hi, I would like to start by apologising if this post is in the rong area-Im still geting used to the sigts set up.This is my ork army that i have started, i imagine it as a triibe of boyz that a Big mek who i fixated with kans is the boss of.

HQ
Big mek-shokk attack gun, cybork body

ELITE
5 Lootas

5 Nobz-2x pk, 2xbig choppa, kombi skorcha, eavy armour, bospole, waaagh banner
Trukk-grot riggers, armour plates, blue paint job

TROOP
Deff dread-4 dreadnought cc weapons, grot riggers, armour plates

21 Boyz-2xbig shootas, Nob with pk and bospole

HEAVY
3 killa kanz-2xrokkits 1x grotzooka, armour plates

Toby

It looks good so far, a lot of armies will have trouble dealing with the 3 kans and a dread at 800 points. I might lean toward giving the mek a kff and dropping the shokk attack gun so you can run the mek with your boys and walkers to give them all a cover save.

Greetings and welcome to Orks!

I'm going to copy and paste some ork advice I've written elsewhere directly here for your benefit:

I'm going to work off of a couple of assumptions.
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1. Playing Warhammer 40k is fun.
2. Playing Warhammer 40k and winning is more fun.
3. Playing Warhammer 40k and losing is less fun.
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Human nature and natural selection demand that we continually seek to improve ourselves. Having an A type personality probably doesn't hurt this effort, but if you lose a game of 40k and don't reflect on the game with, "What did I do wrong? What could I have done better? How can I prevent this from happening again?" then I can't really talk to you.

If this thought process and those three assumptions *do* apply to you, then read on.

******
Orks are a unique codex. An ork boy is significantly cheaper than just about any other model in 40k, and is basically a platform from which many things spring (other kinds of ork variants - stormboyz, lootas, nobs...). If you read the fluff, every ork starts in the same place, and as they develop, they lean towards on klan/society, which is how they figure out what kind of ork they're going to be.

In other codexes (space marines and their variants being the most prolific), basic troops are well-rounded models. You ever play Final Fight? How about ANY kind of game with character selections? You've got the big, strong guy that's slow...the average Joe....and the weaker but very speedy character. This applies in 40k as well. Space marines are like your average, well-rounded Joe. Orks are NOT. You can't mix and match orks in any order you like to make a generalized list.

This is *not* called power building, its called understanding your codex, how your codex is designed, and using it as such. Every time someone calls "playing a theme" to be "powerbuilding" I want to stab them in the F***** eye. If you look in the Ork codex, do you see the codex writers putting in pictures for the sample armies of some Lootas backing up a squad of meganobs in a trukk, who are advancing next to some buggies and a deffkopta or two?

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They even TELL you how to make your army. They tell you what the Ork klans are - Bad Moons, Kult of Speed, Deffskullz, etc.

That kind of thematic army construction is the intent of the Ork codex. That is what makes orks powerful. The ork codex is written so that you can design an army list that is absolutely ridiculously powerful, but it is NOT made up of average Joe units; everything is specialized towards a specific goal. When you build an army list, you should follow the thematic advice given to you in the Codex. PICK a theme. There's a lot of them:

Green Tide. Mechanized Assault. Mechanized Shooting. Ork Gunline (Moar Dakka), Kan-Wall. Dreadz of Fury. Kult of Speed. Outflanking Goodness. Rebel Grotz. Nob Bikers. Super Units. Orky Burnas.

All of those things have something in common - the lists were designed with a theme in mind, and have the synergy to work together towards that goal. When you start combining those themes to make a list, you're being counterintuitive to the very style that the orks were created for.

Remember this: Orks can do anything that any other army can do, and they can do it better than that army. However, orks can only do it one at a time. You can outshoot a Tau Gunline. You can out-assault a khorne army or an army of genestealers. You can put down more templates than IG....whatever your goal in mind is....orks can do it better, but it has to stick to that theme. Orks are not meant to be universal, middle-of-the-line armies.

To give another analogy...if you've ever played an MMO, there are different classes. Fighter, Tank, barbarian, mage, cleric, wizard, hunter, ranger, red mage, death knight, rogue, whatever.....its all based on the game you play. The class you pick sets you on a path for the kind of game you play, the skills you get - they are pre-defined roles.

40k armies fit into that kind of typification. Except for Orks. Orks would be the generic class. You start with a neutral character, with skillpoints to assign, and you can make orks any kind of army you want them to be. People fail with orks because they want some of everything. Instead of making them a fighter, or an archer, or a guardian...and they would be better fighters, archers and guardians than every other type...they split points between all three to make a Figardian. F.A.G for short.

Do you want to excel in something, or be a F.A.G? That's what it boils down to.

Are you a F.A.G?




*EDIT* I'm adding information for the tactics article I'm working on.

If you're running a foot-slogging list, shoota boys are your friend. Slugga boys belong inside vehicles. In fact, I think you should convert your slugga boy mobs into shoota boys. In 5th edition, the shoota boy is the most efficient point purchase across all 40k.

Think on that - for 6 points...SIX POINTS....you get an infantry model with an assault 2 STR4 gun, who is WS4, STR4, T4 on the charge. In terms of math hammer between shoota and slugga boys, it's pretty simple. Slugga boys have +1 attack in close combat, and shoota boys have +1 attack outside of close combat. Since your Orks on the assault are only I3, you're going to strike last meaning that 30 boyz are going to take some casualties before getting their attacks back.

On the flip side, shoota boys get 2 shots before assaulting, and the enemy doesn't get to shoot back first and cause casualties - putting in any kind of hurt before you assault is incredibly valuable. And since it has an 18" range, you can shoot into a unit even when you don't have range to assault this turn. My advice for green tide:

Take all your troops choices as shoota boys. Consider taking a squad of gretchin - you can spread them across your front lines to provide 4+ cover saves for your whole army. Alternatively, you can take a squad of ork boyz to do the same. If you make them 'Ard Boyz they gain considerably in staying power.

Want to get real freaky? Take a squad of 'Ard Boyz, stick Mad Dok Grotsnik with them for a 4+/4+. Spread that unit out 2+ coherence to minimize the damage that blast templates can do, and have the whole thing move+run in front of your army. Your screening unit has 4+ armor saves, 4+ feel no pain, and the rest of your army has 4+ cover saves now. If your points allow it, what really tops off the list is adding some fast attack Stormboyz. You can put them into close combat, or have them multi-assault to shake/stun some tanks/artillery, have them get in fast and tie up enemy units (hello Tau!), or if the situation doesn't call for it, you can leave them behind your screening unit and keep them in reserve to get in where you need supporting assault units at.


Here's a quick take on those various lists. Please remember something important: Every list needs to be tailored for point allocations. What I'm putting down here is an "optimized" list where you get the maximum ability from it, so if you're playing a 1,000 point gunline, three full squads of Lootas + supporting units and troop choices isn't really what you're going to play. You'll have to tweak to match your needs.

Green Tide:
Green tide is actually an apocalypse battle formation, but is a common name for a foot-slogging ork army list. It consists of mobs of 30 shoota boys, a nob with a powerklaw, and either a unit of gretchin or a unit of boyz or 'Ard Boyz (maybe even with Mad Dok) screened across the front to give the rest of the army a 4+ cover save as they advance up the board.

Mechanized Assault:
12 slugga boyz+Nob/PK stacked into trukks, perhaps some battlewagons in the mix, covered by a Big Mek with a KFF...an elite unit or two (kommandos, lootas, burnas) tacked into the mix depending on your personal playstyle - they get into close combat as fast as orkishly possible; with Ghazghkull leading the mix, that's usually turn2.

Mechanized Shooting:
Instead of slugga boys, you have shoota boys, preferably in battlewagons, with a KFF screening them, rolling around the battlefield pouring firepower into enemy units. Alternatively, (and one of my favorite setups) this is 3 Loota squads inside battlewagons sitting on the back table edge, Big mek with KFF in the middle one in a trident formation \|/ to present front armor across the battlefield, surrounded by a unit of gretchin to prevent assaults on rear armor.


Ork Gunline:
Three squads of Lootas form the backbone of this, either sitting in cover or with a screening unit to give them a 4+ cover save, heavy support of big guns or some dreads/kans to provide long range firepower, with the obligatory shoota boy squads.


Kan wall:
One of the current meta-game favorites: Three squads of three killa-kans, protected by a KFF mek (or two) marching up the field screening mobs of shoota boys behind them.


Dreadz of Fury:
Three DeffDreads for Heavy Support + 2 Deff Dreads for troop choices, with a KFF mek screening them for a 4+ cover save, set for either long ranged fire support or close ranged pwnage; I prefer the STR10 DCCWs.


Kult of Speed:
Straight out of your codex! Boyz in trukks, mechanized element + Stormboyz. Ponder this for a moment: 6 trukks full of boyz screened by a Mek with a KFF, in turn screening 3 units of Stormboyz who can move as fast as the trukks moving flat out...that's a lot of fast moving destruction.

Outflanking Goodness:
Kommandos as elites and Deffkoptas as fast attack, as many of each as you can fit in, often with Deffkoptas equipped differently for wound allocation spread outflanking (unless you get turn1 and put your deffkoptas out for a turn1 turbo-boost).


Rebel Grotz:
Instead of six units of boyz, you get.....gretchin! Bwah ha ha. Not particularly scary in themselves, but using covering units or terrain, able to go to ground for a 3+ cover save, making them incredibly difficult to remove from an objective, especially with other gretchin (inside killa-kans) are krumping around the battlefield.

Nob Bikers:
Two warbosses + 20 nobs = 2HQ + 2Troops. 22 models = 1750. Diversified wargear and weaponry let you spread wounds around instead of removing models, and the unit is incredibly tough, has the ability to get anywhere fast, and kill anything fast.

Super Units:
Similar to Nob bikers in having an army with a low model count: Warboss Krumpmaster and the Megaboyz; a couple units of Meganobs, or my personal preference, units of regular nobs with diversified wargear for wound allocation magic - in vehicles!


Orky Burnas:
Start with three units of burna boys. Put them in battlewagons if you like. Mek with a KFF to screen if you do, and you have an army of combination templates / power weapons. Alternatively, a warboss makes nobs a troops choice, and you can give them all kombi-skorchas for some real carnage.


Battlewagon Spam:
Did you know that you can field 8 Battlewagons in a single army list? That's right...eight battlewagons. Three Heavy Support, Three dedicated transports for elite unit nobs, and two warbosses making two units of nobs troop choices so that you can take two more battlewagons. I think any time you have vehicles, you should have a KFF floating around, so I wouldn't advocate going for 8....but you can do a lot of things with a list of Battlewagons.

dont forget the painboy! If you are running nobs without a painboy, just remove 2-3 nobs before starting, you just screwed yerself. If yer nobs have heavy armor and a pain boy that means you have to fail to roll a 4+ on not one, but 2 dice against most weapons, and whats that? you get no save against an ap 3? well guess what, you still got feel no pain! I love my shokk attack gun, but if yer gonna run it, yer opponents are gonna try diehard to stop it. Stick him/it in a building, an actual BUILDING, so they have to destroy the building first, or cross the field and enter the building. My favorite strategy is a hard to kill unit, maybe a battle wagon, 7" away in front of the door with burnas in it, they block the door and will have to be killed to get it. The mek inside is attached to a small unit of 10 gretchin, if the boys noutside start gettings stomped, i seperate the gretchin from the mek, and have them just stand in the way, this way i bought myself two more turns of shootin. If they destroy the building, at most you take one wound, you still got one left, and you still have a 4+ cover save, rock on...

Ok, thank you for the very in depth reply. It is going to be a kan list but i have few questions-

1. Is there a place for stormboyz in this list? If so what is the best unit size?
2. Is this list going to make it accross the battle feild?
3. Do i NEED more boyz?- I dont like painting them because it gets very repetative
4. I have 4 burnas and a mek could i put them in the list with out a battle wagon?
5. im thinking about getting a pshker/zogwart for the army, would a mek with a force feild be better?

By the way there isnt a set point limit, im just trying to get some tactics for orcs.

1. plenty of room for stormboyz, though i personally think having stormboys is pointless without running zagstruk, the ability to deep strike and assault, always throughs people for a "Whaaaa! you cant do thAT!" THEN YOU SHOW THEM YOUR CODEX AND EAT THEIR FACES... But i digress, such a small list you have plenty of fast slots, but i wouldnt run stormboyz unless you were going to do at least 15, and i would recommend zaggie so your talking alot of points into one unit.

2. Any list can usually cross the battlefield against a few armies, you have to be more specific, a green tide army, fellow ork or nid player is gonna come eat your face so no worry about the travel Tau will run like cowards, so the question is can you catch em. You gave your dredd 4 CCW so he can run every turn til he gets close enough to charge, killa kans blow in melee, keep em out of it, your nobz will prolly get there cause of the insane sped of trukk going 19 inches, but honestly against the space marines, tau, I.G. i dont think anything else will. Try to never run partial units they are too easily killed, try maxing the units. Incidentally lootas suck unless they are very safe. i.e. in an open topped BWGN. Don't move it or they cant shoot, just load it to bare with some weapons, maybe toss in a KFF and let the lootas rip.

3. I have said it before and I'll say it again. I HATE BOYZ! Too weak, too slow. I only use them when i NEED more troops. Don't get me wrong they can be useful, and many ork players will swear by them. I have designed army lists with less then half of the models my opponents have, and i am talking demons, space marines and space wolves, and rocked em all, 80% of the time. I usually run big meks and 2 deff dreads or wazdakka and warbikers or a warlord and nobz/bikers So expect this answer to vary.

4.Burnas kickarse. you know they can be used as power weapons if you dont fire them that turn, yes? I call mine can openers since i so often play against space marines. However you really dont want to run that small a unit if you can help it, bad mojo and easy to kill. I'd say keep the mek with the lootas in a stationary BWGN with full weaponry, and toss the burnas with some boyz to act as kommandos. Kommandos are basically boyz that are scouts. Give another boy two crazy looking knives and pretend he is snikrot and watch your enemy flee in terror!

5. Psyker = 15$ Mek with forcefield = 45-55$ What you willing to buy? I have a mek I put together a cheap 15$ blister pak mek that I modded to look like it has a forcefield using some toothpicks and beads and pipecleaners, so it only cost me 15$ too. Now are you asking which should be inthe army? If I had to choose from those two only for most battles, i would go mek, protect my assets and not worry about me "missing" my attack or my enemy "saving" against it, cant save against my 4+ cover save!

To your final statement of no point value and for tactics, the store I play at has 8 Ork players, 7 of which play fairly similar, then you got me. I play REALLY different, and guess what? I havent lost to one of them yet. IMHO too many ork players try to roll green tide style, they think the more you have the better. I disagree strongly. When I pick orks, i usually start with a core of hardcore staying power. I make sure I have the minimum troops and an HQ first, i like to run 1 shokk attack mek and one with a forcefield then 2 deff dreads as troops with 3CCW and a flamer. Then I grab a unit with some serious oomph, usually nob bikers, meganobz or flash gitz, both unit is a beast on the battlefield, the bikers and gitz have painboys making them harder to kill. Hurl battlewagons at your opponent and make him squirm if he is shooty especially if you got yer KFF riding around. The only thing I have issues with are monstrous creatures. They are OP right now, so beware, orks just pretty much suck against them. If yer fighting big bugs you need to go shooty style with some range, otherwise the meganobz and biker nobz will crack some skullz. Also, deffkoptas or scouts are a great way to get behind yer enemy and pop their tanks or HQ's they pummeling you with. And of course, if you got em, stormboyz with zagstruk leading the way. Overall, I just have to say, experiment, play as many different units as you can. Expect to lose a lot at first, find the units you like, use them, and have fun.

Cheers, your advise is incredibly valuable, i was very worried that to be a good orc player you need tons of boyz wich i dont like either so- my next perchases are mek with kff, battle wagon, more nobz (bikers or normal) I might think about having a death star unit of nobz in a BW backed up by kans and dread or stick my lootas i it like you said and a boom gun for some ranged fire power Am i right in thinking that a mek with shokk attack gun takes up 1 space in a BW and can shoot as normal?
are mega nobz with a warboss going to be as effective as a mek with kff and normal nobz?
my mind is flowing with ideas
Cheers Geko
are bikers any Nob good?

speedygeko wrote: Am i right in thinking that a mek with shokk attack gun takes up 1 space in a BW and can shoot as normal?
are mega nobz with a warboss going to be as effective as a mek with kff and normal nobz?
my mind is flowing with ideas
Cheers Geko
are bikers any Nob good?

Biker nobs = the pwn! equip a few with powerklaws the rest with big choppas, let them stay at ranged until something gets close, then krump some heads. meganobs + warboss have much better survivability then nobz and a kff, nob armor alone is better then the kff tho it gives cover saves vs stuff that would ignore your armor, meganobz much lower and no invuln save so its kind of a crapshoot depends what guns yer facing, now... meganobs with a kff....

And yes a Big Mek takes up one slot in a BW but risky putting him in there, all it takes is snake eyes, and he is gone and so is your wagon. Now then, if the wagon moves the mek CANNOT shoot, his gun is "heavy" and as such if he moves AT ALL even in a truck or wagon, he cannot shoot that round. Best bet is stick him in a forest or ruins, with another unit nearby to provide interference if someone comes to say hi to him

Awsome, yes it would seemm putting him in a bw is not a good idea , i did'nt remember that he kills everything within D6 on a .
Just wondering, can a kan shoot his grotzooka if he moves? and can nobs in a trukk go flat out, then disenbark, then assault. If so that would be a a lethal tactic im sorry if im asking silly questions but im used to whfb (no transports and different shooting rules)
Cheers Geko

Some very in depth responses...Dakka is the awesome.

I like Commandos...I rather I personally hate Commandos because they always screw up my tactic...which is shoot, back up, shoot, back up...because then it's

shoot, back up...AGH ORKS...assault assault assault...they're on me now...SUCK

So in conclusion...Commandos (with Snickrot) are awesome for you/terrible for me.

1. Killer kans are walkers heavy weapons dont matter, then can move and shoot em, no worries there.
2. If a vehicle moves, i am quite certain they can disembark even after flat out, however they cannot assault, they CAN still shoot, but not assault. So if you are thinking of doing something like this the best way is as follows. Nobs in trukk, make it red, turbo 19" and if you want them out, pop em out, but give them flames so they can torch the area, otherwise, just wait til next turn, if trukk still allive, disembark the nobs and make your move from there, shoot assault or waagh, whatever.
3. I unlike some will never get upset at someone for asking questions, its how we learn, I read the whole rule book several times and still miss stuff sometimes, it happens.
4. Kommandos do indeed rock, especially with snikrot, the ability to enter from ANY EDGE from reserves of the board WITHOUT rolling to determine a side is sweet.

"Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that Movement phase." (p70, under Fast Transport Vehicles)

When things arive from the edge of the board do you get to decide how far up the side of theboard the arrive?
I agree all of the responces are a huge help . has any one done any good commando conversions, im not keen to pay all that money for only 5 or 6 because you have to buy heavy weapons seperatley. i do have some spare big shootas though
Cheers

Arakasi wrote:"Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that Movement phase." (p70, under Fast Transport Vehicles)

Now go look at open topped, i am quite certain you can disembark an opened top vehicle EVEN if it went flat out, i could be wrong, but i am pretty darned certain


Automatically Appended Next Post:

speedygeko wrote:When things arive from the edge of the board do you get to decide how far up the side of theboard the arrive?
I agree all of the responces are a huge help . has any one done any good commando conversions, im not keen to pay all that money for only 5 or 6 because you have to buy heavy weapons seperatley. i do have some spare big shootas though
Cheers

you need more specifics, WHY are they moving onto the board? deepstrike? Infiltrate? Outflank? For the most part you usually have a side picked or roll for side, count the edge of the board as the starting point, and move them from there onto the field. So for instance, kommandos would outflank 6 inches onto the board from whereer the heck i chose if i were running snikrot, which i would be, or i wouldn't be running kommandos!

The advice that was already given that you should play, test, and learn is the best. There are tons of ork players here and almost all of us have a different opinion on what works and what doesn't. Proxie units from every selection and see what works for you. Remember, the most important rule is to have fun. If you think the craziness of the SAG is worht it - go for it.

Dashofpepper wrote:wall of text

Well all feckin' right. I haven't had much of an opportunity to play my ork force, but dammit if you haven't changed the way I look at them.

Warlordron'swaagh wrote:

Arakasi wrote:"Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that Movement phase." (p70, under Fast Transport Vehicles)

Now go look at open topped, i am quite certain you can disembark an opened top vehicle EVEN if it went flat out, i could be wrong, but i am pretty darned certain

"Models can embark or disembark within 2" of any point of the vehicle. The passengers of open-topped vehicles may assault, even if the vehicle has moved before disembarkation." (p70, under Open-Topped Transport Vehicles, before Fast Transport Vehicles)

Ie - open topped allows you to assault the same turn you disembark, but you can't disembark if the vehicle has (or is going to) move flat out.

Arakasi wrote:

Warlordron'swaagh wrote:

Arakasi wrote:"Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that Movement phase." (p70, under Fast Transport Vehicles)

Now go look at open topped, i am quite certain you can disembark an opened top vehicle EVEN if it went flat out, i could be wrong, but i am pretty darned certain

"Models can embark or disembark within 2" of any point of the vehicle. The passengers of open-topped vehicles may assault, even if the vehicle has moved before disembarkation." (p70, under Open-Topped Transport Vehicles, before Fast Transport Vehicles)

Ie - open topped allows you to assault the same turn you disembark, but you can't disembark if the vehicle has (or is going to) move flat out.

Ah ok thanks arakasi i knew there was something special about them trukks, i dont use them much as of yet as I stick to mostly mechanized armies, 4 deff dreads and 9 killa kans 2 groups of gretchins, 1 with big mek SAG shooting fro ma building, the other group with big mek and kff in battlewagon is my normal formation, lol.

Gonna be in a 6k point battle this saturday though, so i will be using my trukks According to this it seems on my BWGN I should be able to move 7" <its red> and still shoot and assault with my guys inside, and the trukk can do the same at 13", yes?

You can move up to 7" and shoot from inside either, or move up to 13", disembark, shoot and assault from either - assuming Red Paint Job on both, and no 'Ard Case on the BattleWagon. As a bonus, the Trukk can still shoot its Big Shoota or Rokkit Laucha in the latter case as well.

Isn't a battlewagon going 13 considered flat out though, and thus unable to disembark?

Nope, only FAST vehicles have flat-out

so then pretty much any open topped vehicle can move its max distance, have troops inside get out shoot and assault? oooh my meganobs gonna have some fun munchin on space marines thisweekend!

Not sure you will have so much fun, since if you flat-out, you cannot disembark, open-topped or hard-topped.. As for a trukk, you may move 13" and disembark, but not 19" since that would be flat-out.

But you may still move a BW at maximum speed (cruising) 13" and disembark, shoot and assault, if it's open-topped..

What Alienfood said

sweet ya thats what i meant. i always think of my trukk as moving 12 and just getting 6 extra, so i still said what i meant, you just didnt understand my meaning! <be glad, my mind a crazy dangerous place to roam, even i barely survive it everyday>

Got a new big mek today the one with the kff. Bargain at only £8 i swapped the wrench choppa for a power klaw. Im not sure weather i should put him with the nobz in the trukk or with the boyz, ill probably go for the boyz so that more units get a save.