Old INDEX Necron 8th Tactica - link to new codex tactics thread in OP

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**skoffs**

So Rod Praetorians for anti elites and Blade Praetorians for anything less?
I still don't know if they're worth it.

For all CC options I basically gotta ask myself, "Can this unit perform better than equal its points in Scarabs?"

In this case, 10 Praetorians (350) cost practically the same as 27 Scarabs (351).
...
To me that would be no contest, but maybe the math might say otherwise.

Blade* Praets:
M10" Bs3+ Ws3+ S5 T5 W2 A3* Ld10 Sv3+ AP-3 (RP, fly, "fearless", can shoot)
Scarabs:
M10" Bs3+ Ws3+ S3 T3 W3 A4 Ld10 Sv6+ AP0 (wounds everything on a 5+, 108 attacks on 81 wounds is a LOT)

**vipoid**

skoffs wrote:
So Rod Praetorians for anti elites and Blade Praetorians for anything less?

Blade praetorians are looking a lot more attractive, I think. Now that they're not just rod praetorians with worse guns.

skoffs wrote:

I still don't know if they're worth it.
(for all CC options I basically gotta ask myself, "Can this unit perform better than equal its points in Scarabs?")

I think the lack of <dynasty> still hurts them a lot.

**torblind**

The Monoliths "Portal of Exile" (that hurts charging units), now only activates on successful charges.

I didn't notice it previously would always that roll, and it makes more sense this way and probably what they intended although technically its a nerf.

Still it must be the case that I can keep rolling for every units that charges it, regardless if its already locked in combat?

**CthuluIsSpy**

torblind wrote:
The Monoliths "Portal of Exile" (that hurts charging units), now only activates on successful charges.

I didn't notice it previously would always that roll, and it makes more sense this way and probably what they intended although technically its a nerf.

Still it must be the case that I can keep rolling for every units that charges it, regardless if its already locked in combat?

No. it says finishes a charge move. If its already within 1" its not a charge move.
If it just needed 1" that would be hilariously powerful, as then you can charge infantry with the monolith and turn it into a Roomba of death.

**Mr Morden**

Actinium wrote:
But if this ruling extends out to apothecarys and spriit of the martyr then a good 4 armies now need to start tracking losses in an overly complex way where like a devastator squad that loses 6 models you better remove one of the heavy weapons because if you wait for the morale roll to lose them then the apothecary can't bring them back and it's just an annoyance. It's not like the difference will be large enough to swing any games with how easy it is to negate morale losses, it's just meaningless book keeping in the edition that's trying to push simplified rules and faster games. I like being able to just point at a unit at the top of the turn and count how many models it's missing, this chore makes me not want to bother playing my crons at all.

it def applies to Marines

Q: If a model flees from an Adeptus Astartes unit, can anApothecary use its narthecium to return a model to the unit?
A: No, the narthecium can only be used to return slain models to a unit.

I imagine they will get around to other Factions and subfactions eventually

**skoffs**

vipoid wrote:
skoffs wrote:
So Rod Praetorians for anti elites and Blade Praetorians for anything less?
Blade praetorians are looking a lot more attractive, I think. Now that they're not just rod praetorians with worse guns.

They're still putting out the same number of S5 AP-3 attacks (rod = 1 shot+2 melee, blade = 3 melee).
Blade gets a bonus pistol shot, so that's cool. But Rod gets the benefit of probably not having as many things shooting them in overwatch, what with its superior initial shooting before charging probably taking a few things out.
Once engaged in a combat that lasts longer than one round the Blades win out, though.

**torblind**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
torblind wrote:
The Monoliths "Portal of Exile" (that hurts charging units), now only activates on successful charges.

I didn't notice it previously would always that roll, and it makes more sense this way and probably what they intended although technically its a nerf.

Still it must be the case that I can keep rolling for every units that charges it, regardless if its already locked in combat?

No. it says finishes a charge move. If its already within 1" its not a charge move.
If it just needed 1" that would be hilariously powerful, as then you can charge infantry with the monolith and turn it into a Roomba of death.

What do you mean? Certainly every unit that charges it (succesfully I should have added) will suffer a roll for Portal of Exile the way its currently worder? (As opposed to overwatch fire)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

skoffs wrote:
vipoid wrote:
skoffs wrote:
So Rod Praetorians for anti elites and Blade Praetorians for anything less?
Blade praetorians are looking a lot more attractive, I think. Now that they're not just rod praetorians with worse guns.
They're still putting out the same number of S5 AP-3 attacks (rod = 1 shot+2 melee, blade = 3 melee).
Blade gets a bonus pistol shot, so that's cool. But Rod gets the benefit of probably not having as many things shooting them in overwatch, what with its superior initial shooting before charging probably taking a few things out.
Once engaged in a combat that lasts longer than one round the Blades win out, though.

Still you have better ways to adapt to your needs. The sword and pistol option looks way better against Tyranid critters for example (gaunts and genestealers), they may also not offer any overwatch fire.

**CthuluIsSpy**

torblind wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
torblind wrote:
The Monoliths "Portal of Exile" (that hurts charging units), now only activates on successful charges.

I didn't notice it previously would always that roll, and it makes more sense this way and probably what they intended although technically its a nerf.

Still it must be the case that I can keep rolling for every units that charges it, regardless if its already locked in combat?

No. it says finishes a charge move. If its already within 1" its not a charge move.
If it just needed 1" that would be hilariously powerful, as then you can charge infantry with the monolith and turn it into a Roomba of death.

What do you mean? Certainly every unit that charges it (succesfully I should have added) will suffer a roll for Portal of Exile the way its currently worder? (As opposed to overwatch fire)

Oh I get what you mean. Yeah, it would seem that even if the monolith is locked in combat, then it can use the portal of exile if it gets charged by another unit.
I guess it spins around or something. Keep in mind though that as it has the fly key word, it can always leave combat, still shoot everything at full effectiveness, and force your opponent to charge it again.

**torblind**

Certainly makes it less attractive to charge it. With its size its unlikely to get surrounded too.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
.. Oh but it could just fly out of the circle anyway

**punisher357**

These are great signs. It shows GW is listening.

I really think the monolith and GA need a points reduction. Our hq units need some love, especially the characters.

The doom scythe and night scythe aren't real great either

**skoffs**

punisher357 wrote:
These are great signs. It shows GW is listening.

Okay, good, but... where do we send our things to be sure they'll listen to them?
There's some thing we're really hoping they'll fix in the codex, and I'm worried we might not have much more time to let them know/get them to potentially address things before the book is finalized.

**davethepak**

skoffs wrote:
punisher357 wrote:
These are great signs. It shows GW is listening.
Okay, good, but... where do we send our things to be sure they'll listen to them?
There's some thing we're really hoping they'll fix in the codex, and I'm worried we might not have much more time to let them know/get them to potentially address things before the book is finalized.

Well, I think the most important thing is for constructive mature conversations about things - saying "this unit sucks, and is fail! gw has jumped the shark" or "nerf that op dude, he is too balls"

Supposedly GW does pay attention to things on the internet (after all, they did catch on about the flyer spam) so I am sure that threads or commentary which is constructive will get more weight than just whining (like a lot of the earlier posts in the current thread, or you think it was bad here, go look at some of the tau threads).

Also, they have just proven that they can get very creative in how they do nerfs - I mean, who would have thought the way to nerf stormraven spam would have nothing to do with the storm raven itself (unless they would have been too embarrassed to make a change to something comes out in a codex next week....).

Also, I don't think they pay too much attention to mathhammer - and honestly, I think players weight it too much.

Some things such as secondary powers or mobility totally change the context of analysis.

I do think however, a few units could use some adjusting;

Most tanks are about 200 points or a bit below, so I could see the DDA either geting a minor decrease, or preferably, +1 Toughness and a better save.
(yes, I know, it was open topped - but it is made out of nearly indestructible living space metal that makes cermaite look like playdough).

Warscythes really need a boost - they are supposed to be excellent anti-vehicle weapons - kind of like big knife versions of thunder hammers - but with the necrons mechanical strength are not unwieldy. In fact, the exact same stats of the thunder hammer would be perfect - with this addition; "Models with a STR value less than 5 must subtract 1 when rolling to hit with this weapon".

**vipoid**

What if the Warscythe rerolled to-wound rolls against vehicles? Could also do extra damage on a to-wound roll of 6.

davethepak wrote:

Warscythes really need a boost - they are supposed to be excellent anti-vehicle weapons - kind of like big knife versions of thunder hammers - but with the necrons mechanical strength are not unwieldy. In fact, the exact same stats of the thunder hammer would be perfect - with this addition; "Models with a STR value less than 5 must subtract 1 when rolling to hit with this weapon".

Would that last part affect anything in our army?

**CthuluIsSpy**

Yeah, everyone who can take a warscythe is S5.
That caveat penalizes no one.
I would not have a penalty, but instead have it deal an additional D3 damage against vehicles.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Why are they dealing extra damage towards only vehicles?

**CthuluIsSpy**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why are they dealing extra damage towards only vehicles?

The Warscythe historically was better against vehicles than infantry.
In 3rd - 4th ed they dealt 2d6 pen against vehicles. No strength bonus, but it ignored invuls.
In 5th ed it was still 2d6 armor, except with +2S instead of no invuls. When 6th ed came around they FAQ'd it to have AP1
It was in 6-7th ed that they went nuts and gave it fleshbane and armorbane, iirc. Those editions are convoluted overblown garbage though, so it doesn't count.

**torblind**

7th only had armorbane. The voidreaper (artifact) had fleshbane too. And mastercrafted.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
But yeah, it was a can opener

Automatically Appended Next Post:

skoffs wrote:
So Rod Praetorians for anti elites and Blade Praetorians for anything less?
I still don't know if they're worth it.

For all CC options I basically gotta ask myself, "Can this unit perform better than equal its points in Scarabs?"

In this case, 10 Praetorians (350) cost practically the same as 27 Scarabs (351).
...
To me that would be no contest, but maybe the math might say otherwise.

Blade* Praets:
M10" Bs3+ Ws3+ S5 T5 W2 A3* Ld10 Sv3+ AP-3 (RP, fly, "fearless", can shoot)
Scarabs:
M10" Bs3+ Ws3+ S3 T3 W3 A4 Ld10 Sv6+ AP0 (wounds everything on a 5+, 108 attacks on 81 wounds is a LOT)

It must be mentioned that praetorians allow for concentration of power. You cannot physically fit 27 scarab bases into CC the same way you can 10 praets.

If your situation suggests it, those bases could certainly serve better purposes elsewhere, but the straight up comparison comes with that not unimportant caveat.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have updated dice-hammer.com with feeder mandibles to better compare the output of scarabs vs praetorians for example. Just switch to Melee, punch in stats for scarabs, check the 5+ checkbox, (information is all in the tooltips), then add a new army (not just unit), punch in the stats for pistol swoard praetorians, bump Attacks to 3 and compare by flicking forth and back. 27 scarab bases is huge, though of course cannot physically fit in the same CC as 10 praets. If you allow the 10 praets a turn of shooting, they're definitely in the same league

**Slayer-Fan123**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why are they dealing extra damage towards only vehicles?

The Warscythe historically was better against vehicles than infantry.
In 3rd - 4th ed they dealt 2d6 pen against vehicles. No strength bonus, but it ignored invuls.
In 5th ed it was still 2d6 armor, except with +2S instead of no invuls. When 6th ed came around they FAQ'd it to have AP1
It was in 6-7th ed that they went nuts and gave it fleshbane and armorbane, iirc. Those editions are convoluted overblown garbage though, so it doesn't count.

It's just silly it would do more to vehicles because.

Also it didn't have Fleshbane at all outside a specific artifact.

**cheesedupree**

Think there is a fair bit of hyperbole in here about tracking fleeing deaths vs actual deaths. We already have to track turn kills seperate to game kills for the purposes of RPs, this isn't that hard to do. Models that flee via morale can very easily just be put in your foam tray (or whatever you use to transport your models) off the board. Super simple.

Love the monolith change, always hitting on a 3+ (Before profile depreciation of course) with its wealth of guns is a huge buff. Also like the change to the Blade, makes it on Praets a very appealing prospect.

**Klowny**

I just ran 27 scarabs and 9 tomb blades in a 1k list vs orks, wanted to see how my scarabs stack up against one of the hordes.

Scarabs are phenomenal, against everything that's not 30 boys. That amount of boys just put out too many saves for us to cope with, but units of 10-15 are food for 9 scarabs.

Tomb blades. Hilariously lethal, durable, and fast. Did so well, on statistically average rolls that I'm dropping my sentry pylon for some blades (coinciding with flyer nerf).

I just have a dilemma now of balancing scarabs to TB.

I can run 4x 9 scarabs and 6 TB w/scopes and vanes, or 3x 9 scarabs and 8-9 blades w/no canes and a couple of scopes..

Are vanes and scopes worth it over another set of guns?

In casual games I feel scopes are good, considering in my group we play with a lot of terrain. But I haven't seen many comp boards (I haven't seen many) with a lot of terrain.

Vanes are more expensive, and roughly equate to another whole TB.

Is 9 w/ 3+ better than 8 w/4+?

**skoffs**

So is there much point to putting the Voidblade on our HQ now?

**CthuluIsSpy**

If you want. You do get an extra attack out of it at least.

**Odrankt**

skoffs wrote:
So is there much point to putting the Voidblade on our HQ now?

Well, if you have Anrakyr with another HQ then the HQ (let's say Overlord) has 3 attacks basic +1 for the VoidBlade and another +1 for Anrakyr if he in range. That would be 5 attacks with strg 5 AP -3 D 1.

I suppose it all depends on if your bring HQs that can take them, other HQ or units that buff attacks and if you want a CC HQ whos main targets are infantry and light armour vehicles.

I will probably give one to my Lord's in case the warriors he usely with gets CC and need extra help to get out of it.

**cheesedupree**

Klowny wrote:
I just ran 27 scarabs and 9 tomb blades in a 1k list vs orks, wanted to see how my scarabs stack up against one of the hordes.

Scarabs are phenomenal, against everything that's not 30 boys. That amount of boys just put out too many saves for us to cope with, but units of 10-15 are food for 9 scarabs.

Tomb blades. Hilariously lethal, durable, and fast. Did so well, on statistically average rolls that I'm dropping my sentry pylon for some blades (coinciding with flyer nerf).

I just have a dilemma now of balancing scarabs to TB.

I can run 4x 9 scarabs and 6 TB w/scopes and vanes, or 3x 9 scarabs and 8-9 blades w/no canes and a couple of scopes..

Are vanes and scopes worth it over another set of guns?

In casual games I feel scopes are good, considering in my group we play with a lot of terrain. But I haven't seen many comp boards (I haven't seen many) with a lot of terrain.

Vanes are more expensive, and roughly equate to another whole TB.

Is 9 w/ 3+ better than 8 w/4+?

Were you running Tesla or Gauss on the TBs? Still cant decide on which is the way to go with them, in the process of magnetising the guns.

With the Shieldvanes question, something to consider is having a variety of loadouts within the unit. For instance in those 6 you could take 2 with Vanes, 2 naked and 2 with Shadowlooms (replaces the Scope but doesnt seem that huge a deal tbh). If you get shot with a high AP big dmg weapon, allocate the wound to the 5++ model. If you are getting shot with no AP guns, allocate the wounds to the Vanes TBs. The fact that we can mix and match the load out opens up solid options.

**Nagerash**

I just realised that the boost to lord/RP nerf is also a slight boost to the Nemesor/Varguard combo.

And I think I would rather go for 8x3+instead of 9x4+

Although it was never really clear to me how TB work in 8th if you mix and match different options. Do you allocate first and then roll the save?

**Odrankt**

If you get shot with a high AP big dmg weapon, allocate the wound to the 5++ model. If you are getting shot with no AP guns, allocate the wounds to the Vanes TBs. The fact that we can mix and match the load out opens up solid options.

That is a really good idea actually. Field 6 Tomb Blades, have 2 with 5++ to take high AP weapon and normal 3+ saves against on AP weapons. I like it, I like it a lot. The only problem is you will probably need to have 1 5++ with Gauss and the other 5++ with Tesla so you can choose which Gun you'd rather lose too take the AP.

I actually have not used TB yet in 8th. They were my most used model in 7th and now they are just gathering dust along with my Monolith, Wraiths, Lynchguard and Praetorians.

How does 7th edit TBs compare to 8th edit TBs?

**vipoid**

skoffs wrote:
So is there much point to putting the Voidblade on our HQ now?

Well, if you can't afford a Warscythe or Staff of Light then it at least gives you an extra attack over the sword.

**Halfpast_Yellow**

Voidblade is easily the default choice over Warscythe now. The difference between S5 and S7 is so small as to not outweigh the benefits of +1A, and it's 5 points cheaper. Necron HQs suffer from lack of attacks. This makes OLs and Lords much better.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
Voidblade is easily the default choice over Warscythe now. The difference between S5 and S7 is so small as to not outweigh the benefits of +1A, and it's 5 points cheaper. Necron HQs suffer from lack of attacks. This makes OLs and Lords much better.

Maybe. Against multiple wound models the warscythe is better, as with the warscythe you have 4 potential kills (assuming each model is 2w), whereas with the voidblade you have 2 kills and one wounded. The voidblade is the better choice against single wound T4 infantry, however. Warscythe hurts T3 on a 2+ and T7 on a 4+ though, so its got that going for it.

**vipoid**

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
Voidblade is easily the default choice over Warscythe now. The difference between S5 and S7 is so small as to not outweigh the benefits of +1A, and it's 5 points cheaper. Necron HQs suffer from lack of attacks. This makes OLs and Lords much better.

The Warscythe does have better AP and twice the damage of the Voidblade though.