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2017/07/24 11:46:59
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Halfpast_Yellow wrote: Voidblade is easily the default choice over Warscythe now. The difference between S5 and S7 is so small as to not outweigh the benefits of +1A, and it's 5 points cheaper. Necron HQs suffer from lack of attacks. This makes OLs and Lords much better.
The Warscythe does have better AP and twice the damage of the Voidblade though.
Against most infantry those stats are wasted. Would be great against primaris and terminators though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/24 11:47:58
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2017/07/24 12:21:44
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Yeah but you don't want your lone hq running against a terminator squad by himself or he's toast. So then you're talking about sinking more points into lychguard or flayed ones, praets, scarabs, or wraiths.
2017/07/24 12:33:15
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Which is why you don't charge the terminators with the lord. You either charge the terminators with another unit to soak overwatch, then send in the lord, or wait until the terminators charge a unit, and then send in the lord through heroic intervention.
What's wrong with sinking more points into those units? What else are you going to make your army out of?
Scarabs are cheap too. I love those little bugs.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2017/07/24 13:00:01
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
On an Overlord, the Voidblade might be a better choice as it gives him +33% attacks (and he's mostly a backfield buffer anyway).
On a Destroyer Lord, a Voidblade only gives him +25% attacks. And, with his better mobility, you might want him to be able to help out in combat where needed (so a Warscythe would probably be better for the versatility). You could also make an argument for the SoL to make use of his reroll buff.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2017/07/24 13:03:31
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
I ran Gauss, my list needs more dakka, and tesla isn't as hot on them as it is on Immortals. Still a bucketload of dakka, but the -2 ap and also ignoring cover is brutal.
In my list I plan to hide them near the pylon for its 5++ until it's safe to scamper out and kill stuff/grab objectives.
What's better if points are tight, ignores cover or 3+? I can't decide ATM, the extra whole TB is nice but then they're all pretty much naked. I feel 1 less with a better save is overall better.
12,000
2017/07/24 14:19:38
Subject: Re: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
vipoid wrote: I think it might also depend on the body.
On an Overlord, the Voidblade might be a better choice as it gives him +33% attacks (and he's mostly a backfield buffer anyway).
On a Destroyer Lord, a Voidblade only gives him +25% attacks. And, with his better mobility, you might want him to be able to help out in combat where needed (so a Warscythe would probably be better for the versatility). You could also make an argument for the SoL to make use of his reroll buff.
You don't really want the overlord in combat that much anyway. Too slow and too valuable.
The Destroyer lord is more of a fighter due to his rerolls, toughness and speed.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2017/07/24 15:38:31
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
vipoid wrote: I think it might also depend on the body.
On an Overlord, the Voidblade might be a better choice as it gives him +33% attacks (and he's mostly a backfield buffer anyway).
On a Destroyer Lord, a Voidblade only gives him +25% attacks. And, with his better mobility, you might want him to be able to help out in combat where needed (so a Warscythe would probably be better for the versatility). You could also make an argument for the SoL to make use of his reroll buff.
You don't really want the overlord in combat that much anyway. Too slow and too valuable.
The Destroyer lord is more of a fighter due to his rerolls, toughness and speed.
To be honest, I usually don't want either of them in combat. With weapons doing multiple wounds and the loss of RPs on HQs, the Destroyer Lord is looking a lot more vulnerable.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2017/07/24 15:49:04
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
vipoid wrote: I think it might also depend on the body.
On an Overlord, the Voidblade might be a better choice as it gives him +33% attacks (and he's mostly a backfield buffer anyway).
On a Destroyer Lord, a Voidblade only gives him +25% attacks. And, with his better mobility, you might want him to be able to help out in combat where needed (so a Warscythe would probably be better for the versatility). You could also make an argument for the SoL to make use of his reroll buff.
You don't really want the overlord in combat that much anyway. Too slow and too valuable. The Destroyer lord is more of a fighter due to his rerolls, toughness and speed.
To be honest, I usually don't want either of them in combat. With weapons doing multiple wounds and the loss of RPs on HQs, the Destroyer Lord is looking a lot more vulnerable.
That's why you never send him in alone. Always have an entourage with him to draw fire. Its the same with most characters. It would be nice if they introduced CC destroyers. I never understood why destroyers were always shooty, when in all of their appearances in the fluff they are portrayed as murder obsessed killing machines. Even in 5th the necron codex stated they would shoot the enemy, then charge the survivors, but rules wise they are mediocre in CC. Giving them melee weapons would be great. They would be like mobile lychguard, except without the bodyguard rule and shield option. Is there a suggestion box or something like that now? Apparently GW actually listens to feedback, so maybe we can have pariahs and proper necron vehicles if we ask them.
Now that I think of it, the staff of light is probably the best choice on the destroyer lord, as he can use his fly keyword to its fullest potential.
- He can kite with it - he can hide behind other necrons and shoot with it - he can shoot, charge, disengage and shoot again with it
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/07/24 16:15:20
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2017/07/24 16:17:21
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
It would be nice if they introduced CC destroyers. I never understood why destroyers were always shooty, when in all of their appearances in the fluff they are portrayed as murder obsessed killing machines. Even in 5th the necron codex stated they would shoot the enemy, then charge the survivors, but rules wise they are mediocre in CC.
Giving them melee weapons would be great. They would be like mobile lychguard, except without the bodyguard rule and shield option.
Alternatively, let the Destroyer Lord be good with Wraiths again.
Now that I think of it, the staff of light is probably the best choice on the destroyer lord, as he can use his fly keyword to its fullest potential.
- He can kite with it
- he can hide behind other necrons and shoot with it
- he can shoot, charge, disengage and shoot again with it
The only issue I have with the SoL is that I often struggle to find the points for it. But yeah, I'm leaning towards taking it over the warscythe.
Out of interest, do you think the Staff is better on Overlords than the Voidblade? (As in, do you think it's worth finding the extra points for it?)
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2017/07/24 16:28:15
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Overlords will also benefit from the SoL as it allows them to supplement the firepower of the troops they are buffing, but it won't be as efficient on them as Destroyer Lords.
If you can find the points for it, do it, but if you are having trouble getting points you might as well swap it out for a cheaper option.
That's my analysis of it, ymmv.
The thing about CC destroyers is that they would benefit from the destroyer lord's buff, resulting in a great synergistic combo.
Wraiths lack that synergy. There really needs be something that gives buffs to canopteks.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2017/07/24 16:30:45
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
CthuluIsSpy wrote: The thing about CC destroyers is that they would benefit from the destroyer lord's buff, resulting in a great synergistic combo.
I guess, but his buff is useless in combat so I can't see it making much difference in that regard.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2017/07/24 16:39:39
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Personally I never understood why Destroyers only ever took Gauss cannons for shooting when the same gun is often swapable on Vehicles for the Tesla cannon. (or the Particle Beamer for cheaper way to run them? or maybe a smaller Heatray variant?)
The Canoptek buff is sure to be coming in the codex.
They most assuredly already have something planned, but if we knew where to give feedback that would be cool.
2017/07/24 17:03:23
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
CthuluIsSpy wrote: The thing about CC destroyers is that they would benefit from the destroyer lord's buff, resulting in a great synergistic combo.
I guess, but his buff is useless in combat so I can't see it making much difference in that regard.
Oh wow, it is. I forgot about that caveat
Its still awkward to have a unit that really wants to shoot paired up with a unit that really wants to melee though.
It pretty much makes the staff of light the best option for synergy, really.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
skoffs wrote: Personally I never understood why Destroyers only ever took Gauss cannons for shooting when the same gun is often swapable on Vehicles for the Tesla cannon. (or the Particle Beamer for cheaper way to run them? or maybe a smaller Heatray variant?)
The Canoptek buff is sure to be coming in the codex.
They most assuredly already have something planned, but if we knew where to give feedback that would be cool.
True, that is kind of odd. You'd think the most murderous of the necrons would not be picky in their choice of weapons.
Another one for the suggestion box then.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/24 17:04:15
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2017/07/24 18:13:37
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Klowny wrote: I ran Gauss, my list needs more dakka, and tesla isn't as hot on them as it is on Immortals. Still a bucketload of dakka, but the -2 ap and also ignoring cover is brutal.
In my list I plan to hide them near the pylon for its 5++ until it's safe to scamper out and kill stuff/grab objectives.
What's better if points are tight, ignores cover or 3+? I can't decide ATM, the extra whole TB is nice but then they're all pretty much naked. I feel 1 less with a better save is overall better.
Dropping the sentry pylon isn t enough for 6 TB w/vanes. What else are you taking out? Paying for TB with 2 Gauss and Vanes add up quick
2017/07/24 19:16:00
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Klowny wrote: I ran Gauss, my list needs more dakka, and tesla isn't as hot on them as it is on Immortals. Still a bucketload of dakka, but the -2 ap and also ignoring cover is brutal.
In my list I plan to hide them near the pylon for its 5++ until it's safe to scamper out and kill stuff/grab objectives.
What's better if points are tight, ignores cover or 3+? I can't decide ATM, the extra whole TB is nice but then they're all pretty much naked. I feel 1 less with a better save is overall better.
Dropping the sentry pylon isn t enough for 6 TB w/vanes. What else are you taking out? Paying for TB with 2 Gauss and Vanes add up quick
Yep your right, I dropped the second spyder, the particle Beamers from the one I kept on. I was thinking initially that each spyder could regen a scarab base a turn to each unit, but alas that's not possible. I kept him in there after that as an extra d3 vehicle regen, but I figure 6 blades is a better option. I don't see flyers being as prominent, and my pylon is still good for AA. TB definetly put out more damage, and if I keep them near the pylon they have a 4+ RP . I also took two scarab squads from 9 to 8 so I could have 6 TB with vanes and scopes. And I still have one spyder so that's 2d3 vehicle regen a turn instead of 3d3. Finally the way I position my arks you cannot actually draw LoS to my spyder, so he is relatively safe from most armies. If the spyder is getting into CC my armies pretty much dead anyway.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 6 TB w/ vanes and scopes is only 300 points, not actually that expensive considering what they offer. They are my favourite unit in the book hands down as of today.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/24 19:20:27
12,000
2017/07/24 23:59:34
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Does the new voidblade rule and better BS on the Monolith raise the grades in the OPs 1st post on the Praetorians and Monolith? Or not enough to move the needle?
2017/07/25 00:02:31
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
The Monolith: At 381 points (more than Bobby G), the save at normal SM troop of 3+ save with no invuln and firepower below what get for the points elsewhere…. you still will never see them in a list outside of Narrative Play. I think we can only hope that a codex will bring the price down or add some rules that make them worth taking.
Crossing my fingers.
2017/07/25 09:49:17
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Dew wrote: Does the new voidblade rule and better BS on the Monolith raise the grades in the OPs 1st post on the Praetorians and Monolith? Or not enough to move the needle?
Both still only register "okay" at best, as far as I can tell, but I'm open to suggestion.
2017/07/25 11:04:37
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Dew wrote: Does the new voidblade rule and better BS on the Monolith raise the grades in the OPs 1st post on the Praetorians and Monolith? Or not enough to move the needle?
Both still only register "okay" at best, as far as I can tell, but I'm open to suggestion.
The praetorians were already good. The fact that their weapon got buffed should definitely increase their value as they are even more versatile now since people are more inclined to bring them against more numerous 4+ save troops.
The monolith actually has 6 rapid firing gauss mortals build in now +the particle whip on top of that. I'd say he deserves slightly more love, event hough he is still slightly overpriced.
- Power corrupts, Absolute power.... is a whole lot of fun...-
2017/07/25 11:25:25
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Nagerash wrote:The monolith actually has 6 rapid firing gauss mortals build in now +the particle whip on top of that. I'd say he deserves slightly more love, event hough he is still slightly overpriced.
Still has puny 3+ for such kind of a vehicle. Seriosly, take a look at the Landa Raider. 2+ , 4x laser cannons, solid transport and awesome fire superiority. What we have here? bunch of gauss rifles? A useless portal? meh
2017/07/25 12:22:53
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
Nagerash wrote:The monolith actually has 6 rapid firing gauss mortals build in now +the particle whip on top of that. I'd say he deserves slightly more love, event hough he is still slightly overpriced.
Still has puny 3+ for such kind of a vehicle. Seriosly, take a look at the Landa Raider. 2+ , 4x laser cannons, solid transport and awesome fire superiority. What we have here? bunch of gauss rifles? A useless portal? meh
Can the Landraider deep strike, fire at 5 different targets (the monolith has a particle whip, remember, with a guaranteed 6 shots), have a door that eats people and regenerates a wound per turn? And bring on whole infantry units onto the field with no limit to squad size? That portal is not useless. It's pretty much a charge deterrent against infantry. They can't walk up and fist it without potentially taking some casualties.
The monolith is much better against infantry than the landraider, and can be anywhere you want it to be. The landraider has a better save because it needs it; it has to drive to where you to it to be. The monolith can just be dropped down. All what the monolith needs is its old traditional ability of teleporting units from the field to its door and its power of dragging units out of close combat, and it will be back to its former glory.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/25 12:28:10
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2017/07/25 12:32:29
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
I still think the biggest problem in our codex is the overcosted units.
That's a huge issue with destroyers, flayed ones, and ghost arks. However, it becomes even more glaringly obvious when you look at the monolith, tesseract vault, or obelisk.
2017/07/25 12:47:36
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
The monolith actually has 6 rapid firing gauss mortals build in now +the particle whip on top of that. I'd say he deserves slightly more love, event hough he is still slightly overpriced.
The monolith actually has 6 rapid firing gauss mortals build in now +the particle whip on top of that. I'd say he deserves slightly more love, event hough he is still slightly overpriced.
Where does it get 6 rapid fire from?
I think he means to say that it has the firepower of 6 rapid firing gauss blasters. It has 4 gauss flux arc, each of them heavy 3. Each gauss arc is S5 AP-2 D1. That's 12 shots at the same stats as a gauss blaster. Hence 6 rapid firing gauss blasters. On top of that, it can fire 6 shots from the particle whip, resolved at S8 AP-2 DD3.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
punisher357 wrote: I still think the biggest problem in our codex is the overcosted units.
That's a huge issue with destroyers, flayed ones, and ghost arks. However, it becomes even more glaringly obvious when you look at the monolith, tesseract vault, or obelisk.
The ghost ark isn't overpriced. Try using it to bring back warriors. All it needs is like 13 successful rolls to get its cost back. And that's without it dealing damage or tanking hits.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/25 12:58:46
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2017/07/25 13:21:13
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
So, the Monolith shooting at BS 3+ makes a big difference:
12 immortal shots worth (at 13"+) is worth 204 points on its own. Immortals bring the same save and 12 wounds for this cost, with only toughness 4.
6 strength 8 shots at AP-2 with d3 damage doesn't have a necron analogue that I know of. If we say, however that it is at least worth one Gauss Cannon equipped Stalkers in terms of firepower (it's probably better than just one, however), that is worth 171 points, ignoring Targetting Relay synergies. The stalker brings the same save and 10 wounds, with toughness 6, but also QS. Others have done the math craft on QS, but your rough and ready is that against Lascannons you have a 50% chance to have a 50% chance to save versus d6 damage wounds and a 33% chance to have a 33% chance to save versus d3 damage wounds.
So, ignoring teleportation and the anti-charge mechanic, you are already at >371 points of firepower on a more durable platform.
Seems fine to me given its new BS?
2017/07/25 14:13:16
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
I like the monolith but if were being honest, it's not durable enough for our army.
With quantum shielding on all our other vehicles anything that can deal multiple damage will likely just shoot at the gigantic fire magnet the monolith is. And with enough focus fire and only a 3+ it doesn't take too many turns for an entire army's worth of anti-tank to kill it.
That said I'll still be trying to make it work and the increased BS makes it significantly better with the number of shots it has. It'll kill 1.5 more space marines now compared to before.
Psienesis wrote: While that's possible, it's also stupid to build your game around your customers being fething morons
2017/07/25 15:38:32
Subject: Necron 8th Tactica - Unit grading in OP / NEW new FAQ discussion p.97
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Its still awkward to have a unit that really wants to shoot paired up with a unit that really wants to melee though.
Oh, I completely agree.
I think the problem lies with our HQs and their outdated weapon choices. Why can we not have a medium- or long-range weapon in addition to a melee weapon? Or, failing that, why can't all our weapons have some sort of ranged attack built into them? e.g. The Warscythe could have the same built-in Gauss Blaster that Pariah Warscythes had in 3rd. Hyperphase swords and Voidblades are 1-handed weapon, so the Overlord could easily have a pistol or something as well.
This just really bugs me.
punisher357 wrote: I still think the biggest problem in our codex is the overcosted units.
That's a huge issue with destroyers, flayed ones, and ghost arks. However, it becomes even more glaringly obvious when you look at the monolith, tesseract vault, or obelisk.
I think destroyers should have been closer to 50pts. Their damage output isn't enough to justify 63. And, whilst RPs are good for them, they suffer heavily from having no invulnerable save and from the myriad of weapons that inflict multiple wounds.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.