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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Mass melee with fast units is a general recipe for success. I'm not surprised in that respect.

That said, I'm definitely surprised at the lack of obsec. But I guess looking back at my games, most objectives aren't contested to the point where obsec comes into play, so I guess that works, and if you just kill the enemy in their zone, they can't hold objectives.

That's a lot of assault power, but I have to question how they're holding their backfield objectives. With everything but the squad of BSS and the Celestians being essentially melee specialists, there doesn't seem like enough to hold down the fort in the back and prevent things like jumpboyz, scions, and anything space marine from showing up back there and taking away the backfield points.

In the end, the question isn't "how do you not give up backfield objectives?" The question is "can you max the primary and keep the opponent from doing the same?" You can let them take whatever objective they want if they can't get enough total.

 alextroy wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Mass melee with fast units is a general recipe for success. I'm not surprised in that respect.

That said, I'm definitely surprised at the lack of obsec. But I guess looking back at my games, most objectives aren't contested to the point where obsec comes into play, so I guess that works, and if you just kill the enemy in their zone, they can't hold objectives.

That's a lot of assault power, but I have to question how they're holding their backfield objectives. With everything but the squad of BSS and the Celestians being essentially melee specialists, there doesn't seem like enough to hold down the fort in the back and prevent things like jumpboyz, scions, and anything space marine from showing up back there and taking away the backfield points.

In the end, the question isn't "how do you not give up backfield objectives?" The question is "can you max the primary and keep the opponent from doing the same?" You can let them take whatever objective they want if they can't get enough total.

Losing control of your backfield is a good way to give away primary and secondary points like crazy though...

Based on Marine dex leaks, it looks like the weapons that matter to us didn't change in price from MFM.

So are the new weapon profiles live for us now?

Taikishi wrote:
Based on Marine dex leaks, it looks like the weapons that matter to us didn't change in price from MFM.

Yes! I just looked them up and was very excited to see that my list did not go up in points, I have no idea what I would have had to cut xD

Sgt.Sunshine wrote:So are the new weapon profiles live for us now?

Not quite yet.

Yziel wrote:

Taikishi wrote:
Based on Marine dex leaks, it looks like the weapons that matter to us didn't change in price from MFM.

Yes! I just looked them up and was very excited to see that my list did not go up in points, I have no idea what I would have had to cut xD

With things like 15 point heavy bolters, I expected it was already accounted for.

10pts for infantry

Errata is out. One relic upgrade and we get the new weapon profiles. No point increases...yet


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also in light of the lack of point changes for now here was a list I was thinking of running using the idea of bringing the minimal amount of troops possible by going patrol and spearhead.

Twin Heavy Bolters on Immolators have gone up to strength 6. Strange if interesting change.

Voldrak wrote:
Twin Heavy Bolters on Immolators have gone up to strength 6. Strange if interesting change.

Most likely an error and will be FAQd

No mention of Celestines’ flamer getting the range increase, so either another oversight by GW or she’s stuck with an 8” flamer

Maybe an error?

 davidgr33n wrote:

Voldrak wrote:
Twin Heavy Bolters on Immolators have gone up to strength 6. Strange if interesting change.

Most likely an error and will be FAQd

No mention of Celestines’ flamer getting the range increase, so either another oversight by GW or she’s stuck with an 8” flamer

They already fixed the S6 and Celestine didn't really have a 'flamer' as such so it kind of makes sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt.Sunshine wrote:
Errata is out. One relic upgrade and we get the new weapon profiles. No point increases...yet


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also in light of the lack of point changes for now here was a list I was thinking of running using the idea of bringing the minimal amount of troops possible by going patrol and spearhead.

Spoiler:

8CP, 1,999pts

Vanguard Detachment -3CP
Order: Bloody Rose
Open the Reliquaries

HQ
Canoness
Triumph of Saint Katherine

Elites
Celestian Squad
Celestian x 9 w/ Meltagun x1
- Celestian Superior w/ Chainsword

Celestian Squad
Celestian x 9 w/ Meltagun x1
- Celestian Superior w/ Chainsword

Preacher

Sisters Repentia x 8

Sisters Repentia x 8

Heavy Support

Retributor Squad x5 w/ Heavy Bolters x4

Retributor Squad x5 w/ Heavy Bolters x4

Dedicated Transport

Rhino
Rhino

**++ Patrol Detachment (Imperium - Adepta Sororitas) ++**
Order: Bloody Rose

HQ
Canoness: Relic: Beneficence

Celestine

Elites
Imagifier (Warlord) w/ Litanies of Faith, Beacon of Faith, and Tale of the Warrior

Troops

Battle Sister Squad x5
- Superior w/ Chainsword

Fast Attack

Seraphim Squad x5 w/ Inferno Pistols
Superior w/ Chainsword and Plasma Pistol

Heavy Support

Mortifiers x3

Retributor Squad x5 w/ Multi-Melta x4

Dedicated Transport

Immolator w/ Twin Multi-Melta

Personally I would drop one of the HB rets and a canoness to condense the whole thing down to a battalion and pick up more Seraphim. I also don't really understand the point of making the imagifier the warlord when you're just giving her Celestine's trait anyway. You're kinda condensing a lot of your buffing power into the same extremely fragile character.

Beacon of Faith generates miracle dice. You're thinking of Indomitable Belief.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You also wouldn't be creating room for Seraphim by condensing it to a battalion due to having to meet min. requirements. You'd need to pay for two more min squads and that'd leave you points for...a hospitaller I guess?

 Sgt.Sunshine wrote:
Beacon of Faith generates miracle dice. You're thinking of Indomitable Belief.

Beacon of Faith is Celestine's WL trait. She buffs invulns with Saintly Blessings, not Indomitable Belief; otherwise she wouldn't stack with another Indomitable Belief to get sisters to 4++.

Ah, I see. My mistake. Isn't it still better to have the warlord on the Imagifier that I will actively trying to be safe as opposed to the model that I'll be trying to position for aggressive action later on?

Storm shield changes seem like they made crusaders even worse than they already are

The increase in flamer range makes Holy Trinity a lot more appealing on dominions, although whether there's a use in that with the MM buff I'm not sure.

 Commitz wrote:
The increase in flamer range makes Holy Trinity a lot more appealing on dominions, although whether there's a use in that with the MM buff I'm not sure.

Combi-Flamer on the Superior in MM Retributors maybe? I don't know how often you'll be within 12 though unless you're putting in them in reinforcements or something.

Voldrak wrote:
Twin Heavy Bolters on Immolators have gone up to strength 6. Strange if interesting change.

Where? They're still only s5 in the Errata

Yziel wrote:

 Commitz wrote:
The increase in flamer range makes Holy Trinity a lot more appealing on dominions, although whether there's a use in that with the MM buff I'm not sure.

Combi-Flamer on the Superior in MM Retributors maybe? I don't know how often you'll be within 12 though unless you're putting in them in reinforcements or something.

I think the option to trinity with multimeltas might be useful in a defensive role, just to ensure something dies if it's trying to get in your face.

Mostly I was wondering if holy trinity melta or flamer dominions might be useful, their extra move can get them quite far up the board when the terrain permits it but they have to compete with a blessed bolts dom squad.

My gripe with Dominion Squads is that their pregame move feels kinda negated by the extra range on the Multimeltas.

In my mind, modern Dominions just exist as Storm Bolters for you to maybe use Blessed Bolts on early in the game to help efficiently kill some marines.

That and as hopeful early objective takers.

So the Death Cult Assassins didn't get the +1S improvement to their almost "power swords"?

Agusto wrote:
So the Death Cult Assassins didn't get the +1S improvement to their almost "power swords"?

I wasnt expecting them to since "death cult power blades" is not a weapon space marines have... but I was hoping. S5 would have helped alot to compensate for the fact their prime targets all went up to 2 wounds

 alextroy wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Mass melee with fast units is a general recipe for success. I'm not surprised in that respect.

That said, I'm definitely surprised at the lack of obsec. But I guess looking back at my games, most objectives aren't contested to the point where obsec comes into play, so I guess that works, and if you just kill the enemy in their zone, they can't hold objectives.

That's a lot of assault power, but I have to question how they're holding their backfield objectives. With everything but the squad of BSS and the Celestians being essentially melee specialists, there doesn't seem like enough to hold down the fort in the back and prevent things like jumpboyz, scions, and anything space marine from showing up back there and taking away the backfield points.

In the end, the question isn't "how do you not give up backfield objectives?" The question is "can you max the primary and keep the opponent from doing the same?" You can let them take whatever objective they want if they can't get enough total.

If you give up your home field objectives, odds are that they're going to get enough total since they're still also defending their native objectives with most of their army and are/should be re-contesting all their home objectives every turn. Even if they're pressured into their zone, doing the minimum to contest objectives, especially if you aren't obsec, isn't a tall order for them, and at best that leaves you with like 2-2 every turn.




Anyway, on the FAQ changes, my first draft list is:
Battalion: Bloody Rose:
Celestine - Beacon of Faith
Canoness - Beneficence
BSS
BSS
BSS
Repentia x7
Repentia x7
Repentia x8
Mistress of Repentance
Imagifier - Tale of the Warrior, Heroine in the Making, Indomitable Belief
Seraphim - 2x Two Inferno Pistols
Seraphim - 2x Two Inferno Pistols
Rhino
Rhino
Rhino

Patrol: Argent Shroud
Canoness - Blessed Blade, Open the Reliquiaries, Litanies of Faith
BSS - 2x Storm Bolter
BSS - 2x Storm Bolter
Arcos x5
Preacher
Mortifier - Heavy Bolters, Penitent Flails
Immolator - Twin Multimelta
Immolator - Twin Multimelta
Immolator - Twin Multimelta

Sacred Rite - Hand of the Emperor
CP: 8


Basically, the Immolators act like tanks until blown up, at which point the BSS debark and hold objectives. Arcos and the priest can be dropped off at any point for handling things like Ghaz and the Ladz using Trigger Word Extremis or just to join the Repentia in the face-charge.

 Sgt.Sunshine wrote:
Ah, I see. My mistake. Isn't it still better to have the warlord on the Imagifier that I will actively trying to be safe as opposed to the model that I'll be trying to position for aggressive action later on?

No. The imagifier is a high priority target, Celestine is a target of opportunity. Most of the time Celestine will survive a victorious game and even if she does die, it's usually turn 4 or turn 5. Even if they do try to target down Celestine, her get back up means you're almost always going to get at least 3 turns out of her unless you really biff your deployment.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Commitz wrote:

Yziel wrote:

 Commitz wrote:
The increase in flamer range makes Holy Trinity a lot more appealing on dominions, although whether there's a use in that with the MM buff I'm not sure.

Combi-Flamer on the Superior in MM Retributors maybe? I don't know how often you'll be within 12 though unless you're putting in them in reinforcements or something.

I think the option to trinity with multimeltas might be useful in a defensive role, just to ensure something dies if it's trying to get in your face.

Mostly I was wondering if holy trinity melta or flamer dominions might be useful, their extra move can get them quite far up the board when the terrain permits it but they have to compete with a blessed bolts dom squad.

The problem with Trinity is that it actually does dick-all extra damage. It's roughly equivalent to a CP reroll or a mediocre miracle dice vs just putting an additional meltagun into the squad. Add in everybody and their brother getting transhuman physiology and I still really can't see a place for Trinity.

I'm actually working on a comprehensive analysis of Holy Trinity vs other options for each of BSS, Seraphim, Dominions, and Retributors vs GEQ, MEQ, Rhino EQ, and Castellan w/ Ion Shields. It won't be ready for a few weeks, though, as it took me about 2.5 weeks just to get the preliminary tables set up including having to relearn how to do some of these things in Excel since I haven't used a number of these functions in almost 20 years.

ERJAK wrote:
The problem with Trinity is that it actually does dick-all extra damage. It's roughly equivalent to a CP reroll or a mediocre miracle dice vs just putting an additional meltagun into the squad. Add in everybody and their brother getting transhuman physiology and I still really can't see a place for Trinity.

I've not run the numbers but wouldn't holy trinity actually have the most application in tackling transhuman? Considering it modifies our wound rolls, by my reckoning it effectively means you can still wound on a 3+ if you use it.

That use aside it does seem a bit lacklustre still. Blessed Bolt dominions are quite a bargain still, and more effective than any holy trinity combo, and Multi Meltas don't seem to need much help if you pop storm of retribution on them.

Speaking of, Storm of Retribution retributors can do some filthy damage numbers if they get within 18" before even factoring in miracle dice.

Transhuman ignores modifiers, so you'd still wound on a 4+ even with Holy Trinity

Oh dang I hadn't read it properly.