Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

i have a small army I can maybe complete a 1000 point list that could actually be competitive

any way i figured my next buy should be a land raider for transport troops(for i do not have rhinos or termies) and i figure i could use it has a fire base
im torn between a land raider crusader or land raider which should i buy

I believe that the crusader comes with all the parts for the standard land raider.

Thus with the cunning use of not sticking the guns on with glue (or using magnets/pins) you can have the choice between using the standard land raider or a crusader.

Thus I would go with the crusader (check with the blurb or with whoever you buy with that it contains all the bits for both kits first though).

Crusader doesn't come with lascannons, well the new plastic one doesn't anyway. The old metal one does.

http://www.imperiusdominatus.com/2010/04/land-raider-analysis-and-tactica.html

The above link should help as well

mercer wrote:Crusader doesn't come with lascannons, well the new plastic one doesn't anyway. The old metal one does.

Really? I only have the old metal ones, so didn't know. That is a bit rubbish...

Aye gak you not mate. Btw we still on for a game next weekend?

The crusader is a top choice. Has increased troop carrying capacity as no gubbins for the las canons.

I would say get whatever kit lets you use pins/etc to make more than one option, like if you can score a LR Terminus kit, you can get enough las cannons to turn a Rhino into a Pred and have a Standard LR.

Crusader comes with ability to take 16 troops (or 8 teminators) and Hurricane-pattern bolters (great for clearing infantry).

Put a multi-melta on the turret and give it assault cannons for front guns and youv'e got a VERY hard transport that can take out "nearly" anything.

It comes with assault cannons as standard Corennus

Cool. Perfect for those pesky Ork Wagons!

Although I do wonder sometimes. What's the point of taking assault cannons when heavy bolters do nearly the same job and come free on most vehicles....

Heavy Bolters do far from the same thing as an Assault Cannon. The Assault Cannon is even better than a lascannon for AV 14 poping for instance.

I am fan of the Good ole' Godhammer pattern Land Raider. 2 TL Las and TL Heavy Bolters works for me. But I would have to place the Crusader as second.

One thing tho Land Raiders don't make a good fire base. They have one purpose to move up and dump whatever you got inside out to get into CC and break faces. If you want a fire base get Predators or Vindicators.

Also you said that you don't have any Rhinos. I would get Rhinos first then the Land Raider. Reason being Land Raiders are huge targets and as awesome as AR14 all around is a Melta weapon will toast it. So what you do is use the Rhinos to screen your Land Raider doing your best to create an anti-melta range bubble.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tedurur wrote:The Assault Cannon is even better than a lascannon for AV 14 poping for instance.

And how much better is that? And how much better are melta weapons at shooting AR14...

You shouldn't be firing Lascannons and/or Assault Cannons at a AR14 in the first place...

I think armour 12 more like not armour 14. You need a 6 and then a 6 on a D3 again to penetrate it. A tall order.

You'd think so, but an assault cannon gives you four shots to do it in, whereas a lascannon gives you one.
As it turns out, an assault cannon is even better at busting AV 14 than a lascannon (but just barely)
For a pen hit
lascannon = 1 * .888 * (1/6) = .146666
Assault cannon = 4 * .888 * (1/6) * (1/3) = .1975

So really, if you're within 24'' (which you probably are for most raiders) then the assault cannons are better AT than the Lascannon for any AV.

As for not shooting it at a vehicle, why not? They're clearly very effective and especially if you use POTMS to throw in a pintle mounted multi melta you've got a hell of a punch.

I held back from shooting my assault cannon at two vindicators. Wish I had now.

Tortoiseer wrote:As for not shooting it at a vehicle, why not? They're clearly very effective and especially if you use POTMS to throw in a pintle mounted multi melta you've got a hell of a punch.

Why? Because my Land Speeder with a Multi-melta is shootin at it or my scouts with a combi-melta and/or meltabombs are assaulting it or my Joe Marine with a meltagun just jump out of his Rhino/Drop Pod/Razorback and is slagging it that would be why. Don't get me wrong the Assault Cannon is a good weapon but you shouldn't be shooting at a Land Raider then praying it's gunna hurt it. Same goes for a Lascannon they are both perfect as destroying anything AR12 and under.

Have you considered a Redeemer it has a troop capacity of 12 and a pair of AP3 Flamers. Also I am preety sure the current Crusader kit comes with the parts to build a Redeemer

General_Chaos wrote:

Tortoiseer wrote:As for not shooting it at a vehicle, why not? They're clearly very effective and especially if you use POTMS to throw in a pintle mounted multi melta you've got a hell of a punch.

Why? Because my Land Speeder with a Multi-melta is shootin at it or my scouts with a combi-melta and/or meltabombs are assaulting it or my Joe Marine with a meltagun just jump out of his Rhino/Drop Pod/Razorback and is slagging it that would be why. Don't get me wrong the Assault Cannon is a good weapon but you shouldn't be shooting at a Land Raider then praying it's gunna hurt it. Same goes for a Lascannon they are both perfect as destroying anything AR12 and under.

As for said joe marine w/ melta and your other close range, melta death examples, those are targets to deal with b4 your raider gets in range. I mean, if you're bringing a LR its generally to throw some beat stick assault unit into the hardest part of the enemy as fast as possible, usually in the form of TH/SS termies so your raider is going to be in the enemies melta range no matter what. If your plan is to have it sit back and shoot a pair of twin linked las cannons for a few turns, then I'm not sure why you have a land raider at all. Thats what predators/devs/long fangs are for. I certainly agree that assault cannons are by no means the best AV 14 slayer out there, but if you get your raider rolls up and your other AT isn't in position to destroy that battle wagon, or enemy Raider or whatever before throwing your assault squad into it, then you could do alot worse then the assault cannon (unless it means you can't shoot the multi melta).

Well since your reply is kinda convoluted and hard to follow let me break it down for my response

Tortoiseer wrote:As for said joe marine w/ melta and your other close range, melta death examples, those are targets to deal with b4 your raider gets in range. I mean, if you're bringing a LR its generally to throw some beat stick assault unit into the hardest part of the enemy as fast as possible, usually in the form of TH/SS termies so your raider is going to be in the enemies melta range no matter what.

Ok whole sentence doesn't make much sense or at least pertain to the thread... but Yes...Moving up your Land Raider does increase the chances that you will be in your opponents melta range

If your plan is to have it sit back and shoot a pair of twin linked las cannons for a few turns, then I'm not sure why you have a land raider at all. Thats what predators/devs/long fangs are for.

OK here I think your disagreeing that the Godhammer isn't the best choice. Yes I agree, using a Land Raider as a firebase is a bad idea, but you can fire one shot on the move with PoTMS and once you have deployed your Terminators you are free to blast any other Transports or other high toughness targets.

I certainly agree that assault cannons are by no means the best AV 14 slayer out there, but if you get your raider rolls up and your other AT isn't in position to destroy that battle wagon, or enemy Raider or whatever before throwing your assault squad into it, then you could do alot worse then the assault cannon (unless it means you can't shoot the multi melta).

Now this I can understand. Yes as a last ditch effort the assault cannon has a chance to destroy AR14. The point is people constantly tote this little chart around showing that Assault Cannons are better then Lascannon against AR14. The whole thing is misleading to some of the newer guys that lurk here because in general they both suck at it.

The concept of moving up your Crusader/Redeemer can blasting away at AR14 is just silly you should be focusing that fire onto MCs or transports something they have a better chance at hurting. Praying that you roll two 6's in a row to destroy that Battlewagon full of Nobs so you can assault them is asking a lot of the Emperor

Basically for a assault cannon to penetrate a land raider you need to roll 2 6's in a row. One for rending and then another for the D3. Like I said tall order. I wouldn't shoot a land raider with a assault cannon as the chances are slim just as much as a lascannon; which both you don't shoot at land raiders.

When buying a Land Raider for your army, consider what you are putting IN the land raider to make the choice for you.

min sized scoring unit to turtle up and hold objectives? Standard Godhammer Land Raider: its still 100% effective with its guns at max range, and the capacity of 10/12 (depending on what codex) doesnt matter when you are putting 5 power armor marines or scouts in it.

Assault Termies to go smash something?
Land Raider Crusader: the extra capacity is worth its weight in gold. Plus, if you are taking all TH/SS termies the bolters will help thin hordes, which can be a pain.

Power Armor marines to go assault something?
Land Raider Redeemer: I only recommend it for BA and SW because they have power armor marines that can be good in the assault, codex SM are lacking in that department. The redeemer is the best choice here because you dont need the extra capacity of the crusader, the flamestorm cannons are infinitely better at killing MEQs (which are the most common opponent) AND its 10 points cheaper.

well math-hammer says an assault cannon is better for getting a pen hit against ar 14 IF you are less than 24" away. and keep in mind that a d3 is 5/6 not a 6.

las cannon = 1 * (2/3) * (1/6) = .111

assault cannon = 4 * (2/3) * (1/6) * (1/3) = .148

twlassault cannon = (4 * (2/3)) + ((4 - (4 * (2/3)) ) * (2/3)) * (1/6) * (1/3) = .197

@Lixulana, your math is correct and we have established the assault cannon is superior to the lascannon when its within range. However neither are very good (20% tops) at penetrating AV 14 let alone destroying it. Go get the fire dragons, railguns, melta attack bikes, MC etc. They do a much better job.

@Demogreg, aren't your roles for crusader/redeemer swapped? If you're playing SW, BT, or other chapters which have decent power armor assault units then usually you have a ton of them (i.e. the huge blood claw squad, or neophyte meatshield) and need the crusader capacity.
I haven't seen many people roll more than 5 assault termies, occasionally with an attached character, and in that case the redeemer capacity is perfectly adequate. Flamestorms are pretty decent horde killers too. Your experience could very well have proved otherwise, but if you've got a handful of termies then IMO it really just comes done to if you like Hurricane bolters or the flamestorms better (and want to save 10 pts.).

Crusader + Multimelta gets my vote every time. Can move 6" and fire everything thanks to PoMS. With other raiders you have to think... do I move or shoot? Not great.

Marginally better, still not worth the risk shooting at it.

Tortoiseer wrote:@Lixulana, your math is correct and we have established the assault cannon is superior to the lascannon when its within range. However neither are very good (20% tops) at penetrating AV 14 let alone destroying it. Go get the fire dragons, railguns, melta attack bikes, MC etc. They do a much better job.

@Demogreg, aren't your roles for crusader/redeemer swapped? If you're playing SW, BT, or other chapters which have decent power armor assault units then usually you have a ton of them (i.e. the huge blood claw squad, or neophyte meatshield) and need the crusader capacity.
I haven't seen many people roll more than 5 assault termies, occasionally with an attached character, and in that case the redeemer capacity is perfectly adequate. Flamestorms are pretty decent horde killers too. Your experience could very well have proved otherwise, but if you've got a handful of termies then IMO it really just comes done to if you like Hurricane bolters or the flamestorms better (and want to save 10 pts.).

I guess crusader/redeemer is up to preference.

what it boils down to is that the redeemer is generally better unless you need to fit more than 12 models in there.
Land Raider redeemers and crusaders should be moving 12" a turn untill they unload their cargo.
Yes, the crusader can move 6" and fire everything, or you can move a redeemer 12" and fire one flamestorm and kill more guys with that one shot.

I'll just say this. Redeemers are nasty. If you get template on it (and you're supposed to be closing with a Redeemer or a Crusader any way) then it's wounded on 2+. It's got nasty AP and ignores the cover saves. I've gotten eaten by them enough to buy my own to pair up with the crusader I already had.

What tank you take depends on how you want to balance your list. Deadshane gives a powerful argument of the uses of the Godhammer here:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/245840.page#800776" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/245840.page#800776
EDIT: Sorry for the linking problems, I have no clue what happened there or how to fix it.

Redeemer....

Redeemer....

Redeemer...

Unless you need alot more transport capacity, then a crusader is *almost* as good as a redeemer.

I have been using the redeemer alot recently, and it always does a good job, it rarely dies like most land raiders, though it murders space marines on a 2+ with no save of any kind, which is helpful since a lot of players are space marine equivalents...