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Looking at entering the upcoming 'Ard Boyz competition. Would like to know how you think my list will stand up.

HQ:
Daemon Prince [205]
Wings, Mark of Tzeetch, Warptime, Wind of Chaos

Daemon Prince [205]
Wings, Mark of Tzeetch, Warptime, Wind of Chaos

Heavy Support:
Obliterator Cult x3 [225]

Defiler [150]
Extra CCW (flamer)
Extra CCW (Autocannon)

Land Raider (Khorne Berserkers) [245]
Daemonic Possession, Dozer Blades

Elites:
Chaos Terminators (5) [195]
Reaper Autocannon, Heavy Flamer, Combi-Melta x3

Chosen Chaos Space Marines x9 [267]
Icon of Chaos Glory, Melta x4, Autocannon, Rhino

Troops:
Chaos Space Marines x10 [215]
Icon of Chaos Glory, Melta, Autocannon, Rhino

Khorne Berserkers x10 [255]
Skull Champion w/Power Fist and Personal Icon

Plague Marines x7 [231]
Plasma x2, Personal Icon, Rhino

Noise Marines x10 [305]
Noise Champion w/ Doom Siren, Power Fist, Personal Icon
Sonic Blasters x6, Rhino

2498 points


Concept:
HQ: One Daemon Prince starts on the board as a fire Magnet. The 2nd one stays in Reserve to Deep Strike into a trouble spot. All Troop units have an Icon as a Deep Strike homer.
Heavy Support: Oblits will take high ground in the center of the table to take Lascannon shots at approaching armour. Land Raider will take the Khorne Berserkers towards either an enemy objective or a weak unit/horde and then take Lascannon pot-shots at enemy Armour. The Defiler will Fleet behind the Land Raider to get into Close Combat near or with the KBs.
Elites: Termicides will Deep Strike in behind enemy armour, or on an Icon in a trouble spot. Chosen will Outflank (66% chance of getting the table side I want). Move 12", Disembark 2", and either shoot 6" @ 2D6 Armour Pen or 12" @ 1D6 AP. Chosen have IoCG so they can survive and disturb the peace for as long as possible.
Troops: CSM are Objective Campers with a Melta for approaching armour, and an Autocannon for pot shots at enemy units or AV11 Armour. KBs are in the Land Raider ridding forward into Assault. Plague Marines are Objective Campers with Plasma shots at approaching Armour and MCs. Noise Marines will head for the weaker enemy Objective, disembarking to shoot Sonic Blasters Assault 2 @ 24", then shooting and Assaulting next turn. Sonic Blasters can be Heavy3 @ 24" while controlling/contesting the Objective.

Other Options:
I did have Abaddon with 4 Termies (Power Fist x4) in a Land Raider (dedicated transport), but it sucked 715 points out of the army. That's almost 1/3rd of my points value in one 5-man unit. Was nice to have the LR as a dedicated transport and not eating up a Heavy Support slot (I put a Predator in its place).
I hmn'd and haw'd over the DP loadout, the Chosen (which have worked so well as Outflankers for me in the past), the expensive Noise Marine units, but the bottom line is the list exists based on the models I have and the fact that this will be my first Tournament, and I'm going in with zero expectations.

Still, if there are glaring holes in the list, I would still love your opinions and suggestions.
Thanks lads.

If you can back up every unit with a reason for taking it you should at least test it against an opponent or two before taking it to the tournament to see how it plays.

You should also re-read the way fleet works. Fleet itself doesn't offer any extra movement. It merely allows you to assault after you run (which can be done on any turn).

Things I'd personally rethink:

Single defiler
Lack of melta among your troops
Outflanking a single unit in a rhino at 2500pts (it will most likely be shot to pieces without ever getting in range of those meltas)
Expensive term unit vs termicide
Expensive princes at 2500pts which is known for having tons of effective artillery/heavy weapons
Using oblits for lascannons

As much as I love autocannons they are not that great in a troop squad (except possibly for those sitting on a home objective). You are better off with 2x melta or 1x melta/1x flamer because the majority of csm are meant to be up close(either to assault or rapid fire and then assault/take an assault). You will be facing lots of av13+ at 2500pts, making melta an even better option over the autocannons.

If you want autocannons replace the chosen squad with a squad of 5 havocs /w 4x autocannons. They are great for popping transports/light-medium armored vehicles and for laying the pain on light-heavy infantry, but putting them on troop squads that will potentially be footing it (ie when their rhinos get popped or when they're trying to assault) is a bad move imo.

Thanks for the reply and criticism Halsy. Here is my respectful retort:

Halsfield wrote:You should also re-read the way fleet works. Fleet itself doesn't offer any extra movement. It merely allows you to assault after you run (which can be done on any turn).

Page 16, top box, last sentence: "Units that run in the Shooting phase cannot assault in the follow Assault phase".
A Defiler moving 6", then running a possible 6" in-lieu of shooting, then assaulting has an 18" threat range, which is much better than a normal 12" Assault threat cap.

Single defiler
As I mentioned, this being my first 'Ard Boyz, I don't want to go out spending a ton of cash just to prepare for this tournament and my first time out. The Defile is a fun unit, and can do some serious damage both with the Battlecannon and in CC.

Lack of melta among your troops
I can certainly see what you're saying about lots of AV13 in"Ard Boys. I could upgrade the CSM Squad with another Melta, but I find that leaves them rather defenceless while camping an Objective. At least the Autocannon gives them a 48" threat radius while camping. Same goes for the Plague Marines: They can certainly swap out the 2 Plasma guns for 2 Meltas, but that leaves them doing nothing until the enemy armour is right on top of them. I'd rather have the STR7 shot at 24" and the FNP "Get's Hot" saves. The Autocannon on the Chosen is wishful thinking they will survive the initial Outflank move and have some long range firepower.

Outflanking a single unit in a rhino at 2500pts (it will most likely be shot to pieces without ever getting in range of those meltas)
That's the reason they are in a Rhino, so they won't get shot to pieces. With a 66% chance of coming in on the side you want, my plan is to move 12", Disembark 2", then shoot 6/12" with Meltas (26" threat range), hopefully Destroying an important Armour or HQ target, then get back inside the next turn. I know....wishful thinking.

Expensive term unit vs termicide
Yeah, I'm not sold on them myself, but the only thing I have left in my inventory are 7 more Plague Marines.

Expensive princes at 2500pts which is known for having tons of effective artillery/heavy weapons
True. But Daemon Princes are still the most durable HQ we have. Especially with Wings and Warptime. They are fairly mobile, and can get in and out quickly. I could upgrade one to Mark of Nurgle to be a little more resistant to heavy attacks, but the Warptime/Wind of Chaos combo is just so nasty, and has worked very well for me in the past.

Using oblits for lascannons
Deep Striking them is a worse idea (not that you suggested that), so to me the best place for them is in high cover plucking away at threatening Armour. With 3 shots per turn, they should yield 2 hits, with 1 glance and 0.66 penetrations per turn (based on AV13). Again, not much else they can do until someone comes closer for Multi-melta shots.

As much as I love autocannons they are not that great in a troop squad (except possibly for those sitting on a home objective). You are better off with 2x melta or 1x melta/1x flamer because the majority of csm are meant to be up close(either to assault or rapid fire and then assault/take an assault). You will be facing lots of av13+ at 2500pts, making melta an even better option over the autocannons.
Here's where we disagree. If you're camping, all you can do it sit there. That makes a long-range/heavy weapon a much better choice than a close-range Anti-Tank one. If you're going to be sitting there, you might as well contribute something each turn: Picking off light armour with a lucky shot (2 shots = 1.33 hits per turn = 0.66 glances and 0.44 penetrations per turn based on AV11), taking pot-shots at HQs, or whittling away Elites and Fast Attack.

If you want autocannons replace the chosen squad with a squad of 5 havocs /w 4x autocannons. They are great for popping transports/light-medium armored vehicles and for laying the pain on light-heavy infantry, but putting them on troop squads that will potentially be footing it (ie when their rhinos get popped or when they're trying to assault) is a bad move imo.
This makes perfect sense, but isn't cost-efficient from a money standpoint when you need to go buy 3 more $40.00 Havos boxes to get the 3 more autocannons you're missing to comply with WYSIWYG rules. I know I could always convert using IG Autocannons, but I think they look dreadful, and I like my well painted, well converted army

Here are your problems, as I see them.

Single Defiler: that also expects to do will in Close combat! WHAT?! At 2500 he will never see melee unless you have three. The defiler is a shooting unit due to his low init and tendency to get killed by thunderhammers, melta bombs and even power fisted to death.

chosen with an autocannon: If these guys survive the initial rush they need to be rushing forward some more. Try a sword, 2 fists and 2 meltas + mark of khorne. It's pretty optimal.

More melta. NEEDS more melta. The plagues could stand for it and be run as a sling shot unit. They move 12" (in a rhino) and disembark from the rear of a sideways Rhino, can open some fool thing, and become a roadblock and too tempting for you opponent to pass up. Meanwhile your defiler lines up some shots...

Abbadon: Where is he?

Termicide: Good.
Reaper autocannon: bad.

Oblits for lascannons: bad. I DO suggest Deep striking them, preferably from an icon of khorne or some such nonsense. I tend to run 12 deepstriking units in a 2500 CSM army, so I'm a little more brazen than most, but these guys can DS safely in multimelta range with some reliability, even without a mark, if you know what to look for.

Troop auto cannons: save the points, meltas do it better.

Autocannons havocks: Here is an idea to consider. Backfield an autocannon havoc team, 10 man, with icon of chaos glory on you OBJ and get a min sized squad of summoned daemons. When they come in from reserves you place them on the OBJ that your havocs are guarding and suddenly your opponent is faced with a scoring unit screened by autocannons that is holding an obj that he initially thought you were just planning to contest. Sneaky, eh?

Land raider: Could be a rhino to save points and give you opponent a less obvious target. If abbadon makes his way into the army, however...

Sorry for parroting your previous critique but the guy was fairly spot on in a few places. I hope this helps you on your path to victory. as the list currently stands, however, I think you will be massacred without superb generalship and dice.

Thanks Kungfu.

Not surprised you mentioned Abaddon, and not surprisingly he was in my first list with 4 Terminators (4x Power Fist, 3x Combi-Melta, 1x Heavy Flamer) in a Land Raider, and I'm still considering that option. What I lost though (because the Land Raider became a dedicated transport and I brought in a Predator as my 3rd Heavy Support choice) is the Chosen Outflanking team, which I'm a big fan of. With only 4 Troops choices, I can't afford to drop one to bring the Chosen back, nor can I really afford to run with less than 4 Troop choices. I guess I'll have to extensively play-test both variants.

If the Defiler can't do anything in CC, he's still a threat with the Battlecannon (and maybe a TL Lascannon). The trick is getting him into CC with a weaker unit and tearing them to shreds. The KBs would probably be taking on any CC Terminators/Thunder Hammers, leaving the Defiler to prey on the weaker or join the KBs in combat.

Chosen with PF is a good idea, but requires more points. I'll take a good look at the option though.
Melta x4, Autocannon x1, IoCG = 70 points
PF x2, Sword, Melta x2, IoK = 115. Pretty big point difference there for a suicide unit.

More Meltas? Yeah, starting to agree, especially after reading some other 'Ard Boyz lists in this thread.

Deep Striking Oblits: If I had two squads (maybe next year, but I'm not buying anything at this stage) I would consider Deep Striking one as a Oblicide Multi-melta unit, but right now they do best shooting from high ground in the center of my deployment zone.

The Land Raider is a point sink, and I agree the KBs could just ride a Rhino. But does a Predator (the only replacement I have available) really replace AV14 and 2x TL-Lascannon sponsons? On the move to deliver KBs it won't do anything, but after it drops them off it's both a fire magnet that's hard to kill, and a descent Armour killer itself.

Keep 'em coming!

I never advocate the CSM predator annihilator, ever.

THe reason I like CSM termies, as a CC unit as opposed to termicide, is that they have PW's as opposed to fists and the ability to be init 5 w/ mark of slaaneesh. Also, chainfists dominate over power fists for only 5-10 extra points.

Defilers w/ autocannons are always solid, I'm not sold on lascannons there. Just me, I guess.

The Chosen don't have to be a suicide unit. Okay, they are going to die, sure, but they can eat several squads along the way.

Abbadon... He is your answer to scary monsters like Trygons. 3x trygons will give you problems without him, I think.

Oh... I just noticed the noise marines. Summoned daemons are far better and can re-enforce you on the fly with lots of attacks. I think that's an option worth considering if you haven't already. They also tie up walkers quite nicely.

Princes are ok; however I've found MoN to be better as almost immune to small arms fire.

I've gone off defilers tbh. I didn't think they perform well. Obliterators are just perhaps the best heavy support choice chaos have.

On the terminators I don't think you can have a reaper and heavy flamer; personally I'd take the flamer.

Drop the autocannon no the chosen because meltas are better at anti tank and infantry busting and they cannot move and shoot the autocannon; so it will be wasted when moving into range with that melta. Same applies to the CSM squad too.

@Kungfuhustler:

It's an icon and not a mark (stickler I am).

As for Abby, I do not recommend putting him with a squad of Termies, should you take them.

@Mizzri's Original List:

Princes are ok, but DSing Princes are more often than not Failprinces.

Oblits are always nice.
Defiler would be best with a twin or at least a Dread.
LR really only needs Extra Armor.

Termies: Yes, a NOOOOO to the Reaper, and you can't have both a Reaper and a Hvy flamer.

Chosen are ok, though the AC is a bit wierd, in addition, alot more bodies than I normally see.

Troops:
CSM: again, the AC is so out of place.
Zerkers are ok.
Plauges are ok.
NM look ok, but has some fat.

mercer wrote:On the terminators I don't think you can have a reaper and heavy flamer; personally I'd take the flamer.

You're right Mercwer - it's either or. I'll take the Heavy Flamer for Horde I guess.

Thanks for catching that.

@ Sanctjud: Why no Termies with Abaddon?

As I've stated a few times, since this is my first 'Ard Boyz, I'm not going to invest more money than I already have to add a second Defiler for one Tournament.
Mercer caught the Autocannon/Hvy Flamer gaff - I'll fix that.
Chosen have more bodies because I don't really have anywhere else to put the points, and I'd like them to be able to survive more than one encounter. A few extra bodies for wounds to save the meltas might be the difference. I have a Predator in reserve, but there's no way to find enough points by dropping the Termie AC and a few chosen to get it in......I don't think.....*reaches for calculator*

Nope. No way to fit it in. The KBs cannot take a Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport. They'd have to steal it from the Termies. That means the Termies would have to start on the board, preventing them from Deep Striking as Termicides.

New List:

HQ:
Daemon Prince [205]
Wings, Mark of Tzeetch, Warptime, Wind of Chaos

Daemon Prince [200]
Wings, Mark of Tzeetch, Warptime, Bolt of Change (was Wind of Chaos)

Heavy Support:
Obliterator Cult x3 [225]

Defiler [150]
Extra CCW (flamer)
Extra CCW (Autocannon)

Land Raider (Khorne Berserkers) [235]
Extra Armour (was Daemonic Possession and Dozer Blades)

Elites:
Chaos Terminators (5) [175]
Heavy Flamer, Combi-Melta x4 (was Reaper AC and 3 Combis)

Chosen Chaos Space Marines x10 [275]
Icon of Chaos Glory, Melta x5, Rhino (was Melta x4 + 1 AC)

Troops:
Chaos Space Marines x10 [215]
Icon of Chaos Glory, Melta, Autocannon, Rhino

Khorne Berserkers x10 [255]
Skull Champion w/Power Fist and Personal Icon

Plague Marines x7 [256]
Plague Champion w/Power Fist, Melta x2, Rhino (added Champ w/PF, changed Plasma to Melta)

Noise Marines x10 [305]
Noise Champion w/ Doom Siren, Power Fist, Personal Icon
Sonic Blasters x6, Rhino

2496 points

Start is the same, with two small changes:
DP#2 will start on the table and use Warptime/Bolt against early Armour targets.
DP#1 will Deep Strike on one of the forward units Icons.
Plague Marines with start on closest objective to the Oblits since they don't have an Icon to call in Deep Strikers.

Tactic wise you should start both princes on the table. Reason is all the guns will point at one and it will get hammered. Having both from the start will give dual threat and target priority for your opponent will become harder. Also deep striking a prince is a bad idea, you want them in combat so deep striking them means they will sit there for a turn and get shot at - I killed one in a round of fire with a single unit of ork lootas btw.

Btw yuo have 4 points spare I'd use those to get a personal icon; being over 1 point isn't a issue. Now you can deep strike where ever needed.

Oh, the CSM unit with the autocannon is still messed up. You want to hang back with the autocannon but the melta needs to move on up. You cannot move and shoot heavy weapons so these weapons do not have good synergy. If you want to sit and shoot take a plasma gun at least.

mercer wrote:Btw you have 4 points spare I'd use those to get a personal icon; being over 1 point isn't a issue. Now you can deep strike where ever needed.

I was under the impression that 'Ard Boyz lists could not be a single point over 2500 to be legal in the Tournament?

Because it makes Abby no longer fearless and a beat stick like that does not need the powerweaponyness of the Termies, he needs mass attacks to cover the issues of anti-horde/tarpit.

The no longer fearless issue means:
-He can be pinned.
-He can fallback.
-He can be sweeping advanced on.

And there are other ways to force a morale test without needing to actually hurt the squad.

etc.

Though minor it is an Achilles' Heel...other than the stupid price and lack of force multipliers.

The troop units are a bit of everything.
I'd go for a theme and spam it.

@ sanctjud: I never run abbadon as I don't play undivided, I play undecided, but abbadon and the termies usually split up upon disembark to rape multi-face. Thus the reason to run em' together.

True, but as long as they are in the ride, there is an opening...exploded LR and a pinned Abby is just too funny...even a falling back Abby and Termies once they are exposed out of their ride on the opponents' turn.

I should have elaborated on all of these points. I meant to just make a quick post to give you some things to think about and then come back and edit them much sooner than I did. So it really is my fault in the couple of places where my point wasn't fully realized. Sorry about that. Regardless of anything else, the list you have now should do fine at ard boyz. I just want you to have the best possible chance to win so I'm picking out things I might otherwise leave out for a normal review.

Mizzri wrote:
A Defiler moving 6", then running a possible 6" in-lieu of shooting, then assaulting has an 18" threat range, which is much better than a normal 12" Assault threat cap.

You said: "The defiler will fleet behind the land raider to get into close combat near or with the KBs". My point was that the way you typed that isnt really how fleet works. Fleet is not some additional move that you can now make with the defiler. It simply allows you to make normal moves in a combination that you normally cannot do. That does in the end make you go farther, but if you tell someone at ard boyz in the movement phase that you're "fleeting" your defiler, he may look at you a bit confused.

Mizzri wrote:
Single defiler
As I mentioned, this being my first 'Ard Boyz, I don't want to go out spending a ton of cash just to prepare for this tournament and my first time out. The Defile is a fun unit, and can do some serious damage both with the Battlecannon and in CC.

That's no problem, but if you can't field a second defiler you might want to drop it and replace it with something else(or borrow another or that something else from a friend). My biggest problem isn't that it can't shell out damage (it can, very well), but that it only has av12 and you're at ard boyz. Ard boyz lists are full of melta and long range barrages that will devastate most armored units under av13 very quickly. This isn't as big a problem with rhinos because they're 35pts and thus disposable, but your defiler is 150pts minimum.

Mizzri wrote:
That's the reason they are in a Rhino, so they won't get shot to pieces. With a 66% chance of coming in on the side you want, my plan is to move 12", Disembark 2", then shoot 6/12" with Meltas (26" threat range), hopefully Destroying an important Armour or HQ target, then get back inside the next turn. I know....wishful thinking.

AV11 is a joke at 2500pts. AV11 outflanked next to your opponents table edge is going to be focused fired into oblivion on your opponents first turn. If they are going to be used as a suicide squad to trade their points for a land raider or something then they need to be kept as cheap as possible (ie not a full 10man squad).

If you must have the chosen why not just have them roll up with the main force? They would be much better protected and your opponent won't know where that deadly melta squad is coming from.

Mizzri wrote:
Expensive princes at 2500pts which is known for having tons of effective artillery/heavy weapons
True. But Daemon Princes are still the most durable HQ we have. Especially with Wings and Warptime. They are fairly mobile, and can get in and out quickly. I could upgrade one to Mark of Nurgle to be a little more resistant to heavy attacks, but the Warptime/Wind of Chaos combo is just so nasty, and has worked very well for me in the past.

They are the most durable because they are not allowed to join a unit and thus must stand on their own merits. A sorc/lord in a full squad is just as , if not more, durable than a daemon prince and allows you to still bring a solid cc, quick moving, spell casting HQ without leaving him out in the open to get shot to pieces first or 2nd turn.

Mizzri wrote:
Using oblits for lascannons
Deep Striking them is a worse idea (not that you suggested that), so to me the best place for them is in high cover plucking away at threatening Armour. With 3 shots per turn, they should yield 2 hits, with 1 glance and 0.66 penetrations per turn (based on AV13). Again, not much else they can do until someone comes closer for Multi-melta shots.

My fault here because I didn't say what I would suggest doing instead. I would never DS oblits. If I needed DSing melta I would take termicide. If I need long range las support (which I find rare in this edition) I would take havocs or more likely predators.

If your oblits are using their lascannons the majority of the game you have just paid the absolute premium for lascannons(and since your battle plan has them doing just that I think it is a problem). Look at the point costs for lascannon havocs or AC turret/LC sponson predators. With them you get more shots for the points, and either more tough armor or more wounds that don't fear instant-death. The better choice imo is the AC/LC pred for its mobility/armor/1AC shot + 2 LC shots for 130pts vs 2 LC shots for 150pts with oblits.

Mizzri wrote:
If you're camping, all you can do it sit there. That makes a long-range/heavy weapon a much better choice than a close-range Anti-Tank one. If you're going to be sitting there, you might as well contribute something each turn: Picking off light armour with a lucky shot (2 shots = 1.33 hits per turn = 0.66 glances and 0.44 penetrations per turn based on AV11), taking pot-shots at HQs, or whittling away Elites and Fast Attack.

You're preaching to the choir about how good autocannons are. I recommend almost every single list I review to take some autocannon havocs in their HS slot.

I guess I just don't see a real scenario where you would be sitting around unmolested (ie out of close combat) with troops except on an objective or two that are near your table edge. Taking full size squads just to sit on those objectives and shoot a single autocannon just seems a bit wasteful to me. Those points could be better spent elsewhere. For your forward squads it really needs to be 2x melta or 1x melta/flamer.

Mizzri wrote:
This makes perfect sense, but isn't cost-efficient from a money standpoint when you need to go buy 3 more $40.00 Havos boxes to get the 3 more autocannons you're missing to comply with WYSIWYG rules. I know I could always convert using IG Autocannons, but I think they look dreadful, and I like my well painted, well converted army

1) You should never be paying retail for anything and even at the discount store price of 25-35% off I wouldn't be buying havoc boxes to get 4x autocannons. Buy the single model blister and only need to spend about $9-10/havoc with this method(so $40 total, instead of $120, you loon =P).
2) I have gotten all my havocs (all underslung new bits) on ebay cheap as hell (~$4/model or $1.50/bit) and I have 3 squads of 4x autocannons (5 man squads, all the actual havoc models, not csms with the bits added).
3) There are other methods to converting autocannons that look decent(like using converted defiler autocannons):

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/274933.page
(better pic of same idea) http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116631

Drop the landraider, get 3 more oblits, drop 2 chosen and give the beserkers a rhino with an extra bolter, make sure all rhino's have an extra bolter, for some reason it makes them much harder to kill.

The defiler is a key tool for defeating demons, it can be used to tie up a 20man bloodletter squad or a single bloodcrusher squad. Beyond that, its use is pretty marginal. I field one in 2500pt games just for demons, against any other player its in reserve and pops up later, hopefully in a spot where it wont get popped right away. Last year at hard boyz in 6 games, it was killed just once, and that was by a necron monolith (of all things)

I'm not entirely sold on the winds of chaos on your demon princes, I think a bolt of change would be better, I run lash princes still. In my area I expect to see a lot of IG, so I'll change my tune before too long.

I would consider tightening up your troops choices, I'm either going to run 4 csm squads with melta love and champs with combi-flamers or a mix of CSM and nurgle.

Sazzlefrats wrote:Drop the landraider, get 3 more oblits, drop 2 chosen and give the beserkers a rhino with an extra bolter, make sure all rhino's have an extra bolter, for some reason it makes them much harder to kill.

The defiler is a key tool for defeating demons, it can be used to tie up a 20man bloodletter squad or a single bloodcrusher squad. Beyond that, its use is pretty marginal. I field one in 2500pt games just for demons, against any other player its in reserve and pops up later, hopefully in a spot where it wont get popped right away. Last year at hard boyz in 6 games, it was killed just once, and that was by a necron monolith (of all things)

I'm not entirely sold on the winds of chaos on your demon princes, I think a bolt of change would be better, I run lash princes still. In my area I expect to see a lot of IG, so I'll change my tune before too long.

I would consider tightening up your troops choices, I'm either going to run 4 csm squads with melta love and champs with combi-flamers or a mix of CSM and nurgle.

I think I missed a sarcasm tag somewhere? Bolters making rhinos harder to kill at ard boyz?

You also think one of the most versatile of our HS vehicle choices only has marginal uses? How about moving forward constantly firing its 72" 8str 2ap ordnance large pieplate every turn, and then wading into close combat with a possible heavy flamer and lots of close combat attacks? The only problem with them is their weak front armor and that mizziri only has 1 of them.

Winds of chaos is one of the best non-god related powers we have. Instantly giving one wound(ignoring armor/cover saves) to anything on a 4+ is incredibly good for a flamer template and is especially good on a DP/sorc because of how assault oriented our army has become. It also glances anything on a roll of 4+ which is a crazy good bonus on top of an already sick power. The only thing that drags it down at all is the template range, but we are an assault army and something only working in assault range should not be a downside for us.

Bolt of change? It is a melta shot with double the range and without the extra d6 for penetration. Not a good trade off. It must be taken with a MoT, and costs more than WoC. If it was a free cast or something I'd consider it to give the DP some shooting power before he reaches his target, but it absolutely is not worth it on an HQ when there are so many better powers and loadouts to take.

Argggh.....so....confused....must....stop....thinking.......

@ Halsfield: I think what Sazzie meant was a Bolter would give you a 2nd Weapon Destroyed target before the Rhino was going to be immobilized (hull mounted first, pintle mounted second).

OK. So now a Chaos Sorcerer (which I do have a model for) is sounding like a harder to kill option, but he's such a paper tiger in CC??? No Instant Death immunity, 1 point less in nearly every stat. To me he's only good as long as his pitiful AV11 Rhino stays intact.

Agree about Wind of Chaos: It rocks, especially with Warptime.

I'm waffling on Bolt of Change. I had Wings/MoT/Warptime/Wind before, and changed it to Bolt so the walk on DP could plink some Armour as he strode into combat. Probably a bad idea. Now do I go back to Wings/MoT/Warptime/Wind on the 2nd DP, or do I make him small-arms immune (figure of speech) with Wings/MoN/Warptime?


@ Sazziefrats: Buying 3 more Oblits is not a financial option right now. I'm trying to play with the models I have.

I like the Defiler too. I wish I had two, but again, finances say no this year.

Tightening up Troop choices isn't really an option either. I have 20 CSM models, 14 PM models, 12 KB models, and 12 NM models to field my Troop choices from. With regular CSM being doubling as chosen, the only other Troops I have is 7 more Plague Marines, and I don't really see the need for 7 more.


@ Halsfield (from post previous to Sazzie's): Yes, I see what you mean about my use of Fleeting. Assuming he's going to get into CC first turn, I would fleet him in-lieu of shooting and attempt to get into CC. If not, move, shoot the BC, and position for Assault the 2nd turn.

So if given the choice between a Defiler and a Predator (which I have one of) you'd go with the Predator for some AV13? That is certainly an option.

So give up on the concept of Chosen lasting more than one round, and reduce them to minimum Squad size of 5? Should I bother with an IoCG then to prevent them from fleeing when they get sacked?

Oblits as Lascannons is an expensive choice I agree, but here's my math:
5 Havocs with 4 ACs = 155 points VS 2 Oblits = 150 points.
If the enemy fires 10 shots, Havos take 3.3 wounds VS Oblits taking 1.2 wounds
That means after one round of fire, the Havos have been reduced by 60% and will flee since I don't have an Icon, whereas the Oblits are fine with a single wound on 1 model.
They can move later on and bring other weapons to bear. Their flexibility is why I love them.

Abaddon losing Fearless:
If he's going to lose Fearless, should I maybe just put him in a Land Raider with the Khorne Bersekers? I lose one Heavy Support slot due to the Land Raider not being a Dedicated Transport anymore, but that would give him 9 disposable wounds, and no risk of losing Fearless.......

Halsfield wrote:

Sazzlefrats wrote:Drop the landraider, get 3 more oblits, drop 2 chosen and give the beserkers a rhino with an extra bolter, make sure all rhino's have an extra bolter, for some reason it makes them much harder to kill.

The defiler is a key tool for defeating demons, it can be used to tie up a 20man bloodletter squad or a single bloodcrusher squad. Beyond that, its use is pretty marginal. I field one in 2500pt games just for demons, against any other player its in reserve and pops up later, hopefully in a spot where it wont get popped right away. Last year at hard boyz in 6 games, it was killed just once, and that was by a necron monolith (of all things)

I'm not entirely sold on the winds of chaos on your demon princes, I think a bolt of change would be better, I run lash princes still. In my area I expect to see a lot of IG, so I'll change my tune before too long.

I would consider tightening up your troops choices, I'm either going to run 4 csm squads with melta love and champs with combi-flamers or a mix of CSM and nurgle.

I think I missed a sarcasm tag somewhere? Bolters making rhinos harder to kill at ard boyz?

You also think one of the most versatile of our HS vehicle choices only has marginal uses? How about moving forward constantly firing its 72" 8str 2ap ordnance large pieplate every turn, and then wading into close combat with a possible heavy flamer and lots of close combat attacks? The only problem with them is their weak front armor and that mizziri only has 1 of them.

Winds of chaos is one of the best non-god related powers we have. Instantly giving one wound(ignoring armor/cover saves) to anything on a 4+ is incredibly good for a flamer template and is especially good on a DP/sorc because of how assault oriented our army has become. It also glances anything on a roll of 4+ which is a crazy good bonus on top of an already sick power. The only thing that drags it down at all is the template range, but we are an assault army and something only working in assault range should not be a downside for us.

Bolt of change? It is a melta shot with double the range and without the extra d6 for penetration. Not a good trade off. It must be taken with a MoT, and costs more than WoC. If it was a free cast or something I'd consider it to give the DP some shooting power before he reaches his target, but it absolutely is not worth it on an HQ when there are so many better powers and loadouts to take.

There was no sarcasm. You probably assume that every time a rhino is hit with a gun, its a penetrating shot and the whole thing blows up. I've had enough rhino's with weapons blown off, and still not killed because the 4th glancing hit didn't land on it before the game ended. For 5pts, its a worthwhile upgrade.

Yes the defiler is verstile, but its still of marginal use, its an entirely too large of a model, the effort to try to find cover to conceal it almost never pays off, and if it starts on the board at the beginning of the game, you are almost always guaranteed that it'll not be there at the end of the game. How does it wade into combat? Any player worth his salt will shoot it melta guns before it becomes an issue, the sad thing about defilers is that once you pop them... you are safe, not like the threat when blowing up a dedicated transport and having 10 angry CSM's in your face for next turn. Check this... a defiler shooting battle cannons isn't likely to make its points back every game, the scatter is too severe... a defiler, moving and shooting isn't much better, and a defiler running instead of shooting is only a threat when it gets into assault range. If I pop it just then... its a non-issue, I assume my opponents would do the same.

I'll still take the lash over WOC or Bolt of Change... for 155, I got a combat monster that strikes first, and has an effective charge range of 12"+2d6+6", or 25", a demon prince with WOC has an effective shooting range of 12"+8"... you're being outplayed by 5". With all the new anti-psycker stuff out there, maybe a plain old nurgle flying demon prince is the answer, too bad that costs as much as a very effective slannesh lash equipped demon prince with wings... Sure WOC can cause a lot of damage, but.... I've got one more turn of shooting before it does its thing, so a bolt of change and the lash, both get to do their thing a turn sooner. Maybe a nurgle demon prince with WOC.. hard to say if any mark on a demon prince makes it any more survivable though. The lash creates the best synergy with anything else you will field so, thats why its gets my vote.

@Mizzri -

Mizzri wrote:
@ Halsfield: I think what Sazzie meant was a Bolter would give you a 2nd Weapon Destroyed target before the Rhino was going to be immobilized (hull mounted first, pintle mounted second).

I guess that's true, but that seems awfully rare to me to buy an extra weapon for it. The more points you spend on a rhino the more you're better off getting more bodies instead. If you're going to buy anything it should be a combi-melta.

Mizzri wrote:
OK. So now a Chaos Sorcerer (which I do have a model for) is sounding like a harder to kill option, but he's such a paper tiger in CC??? No Instant Death immunity, 1 point less in nearly every stat. To me he's only good as long as his pitiful AV11 Rhino stays intact.

How is a warptime + winds of chaos + force weapon HQ a paper tiger? He might be weaker than a DP in cc, but that is the tradeoff for having him join a squad and having more options. If you want an all by himself cc god with psyker powers and eternal warrior take the DP. I just think in ard boyz you'll be dead before you get to use that cc godliness and eternal warrior doesnt matter when you're getting killed the old fashioned way. When you're not making it into CC those stats don't matter, so even with a less powerful cc statline the sorcerer will usually be doing more for you.

mizzri wrote:
So if given the choice between a Defiler and a Predator (which I have one of) you'd go with the Predator for some AV13? That is certainly an option.

I think I would take the pred. It would again be best to have a pair, but if you can only take one or either I would take the pred. It also helps that the model is physically lower and thus less easy to spot with LoS from a unit placed on a hilltop/high ruin.

mizzri wrote:
So give up on the concept of Chosen lasting more than one round, and reduce them to minimum Squad size of 5? Should I bother with an IoCG then to prevent them from fleeing when they get sacked?

Yea, I think it is possible that they could last more than one turn, but you definitely should not count on it as it will not be what happens the majority of the time in ard boyz. Squad size of 5 keeps them cheaper so when they do suicide you aren't losing a huge stack of points but they can still fulfill their job (delivery of lots of special weapons). If you have the extra points for an IoCG then why not, but I think you're more than likely to be wiped out the round after you shoot the weapons.

mizzri wrote:
Oblits as Lascannons is an expensive choice I agree, but here's my math:
5 Havocs with 4 ACs = 155 points VS 2 Oblits = 150 points.
If the enemy fires 10 shots, Havos take 3.3 wounds VS Oblits taking 1.2 wounds
That means after one round of fire, the Havos have been reduced by 60% and will flee since I don't have an Icon, whereas the Oblits are fine with a single wound on 1 model.
They can move later on and bring other weapons to bear. Their flexibility is why I love them.

I could easily come up with scenarios where the oblits are wiped out in a single turn and the havocs still have models on the board for you to use, but that isn't what strategizing should be about. You should both be considering who performs the job for the lowest cost(easily havocs), and what type of fire they are most likely to take and who would do better under that situation. In cover you can get an easy invul save, so the oblits pay for theirs whereas the havocs don't. The oblits are very versatile, but if you're not planning on using their versatility the havocs are an even better choice.

If you want a unit with lots of versatile weapon choices (at the loss of volume of fire) that can DS if the opponent calls for it take the oblits. If you want the most shots possible for the lowest cost possible in a stationary platform take the havocs.

@Sazzlefrats -

Sazzlefrats wrote:
There was no sarcasm. You probably assume that every time a rhino is hit with a gun, its a penetrating shot and the whole thing blows up. I've had enough rhino's with weapons blown off, and still not killed because the 4th glancing hit didn't land on it before the game ended. For 5pts, its a worthwhile upgrade.

Any rhino upgrade in this edition is a waste of time. You can load up a rhino with all the durability gear you want and they will still be penetrated and wrecked the majority of the time by someone with a proper army list and know-how. The only difference now is that you spent a lot more points than needed for that heaping ball of fire that used to be your transport. Keeping them cheap is what makes them useful.

Sazzlefrats wrote:
Yes the defiler is verstile, but its still of marginal use

I can agree that the defiler has downsides. That is why I don't take a defiler very often (usually in favor of 2 squads of autocannon havocs and 3 oblits). The problem is that when I do take them they are hardly of maginal use. They might die more easily than some of our other choices, but they are of great use until that happens. You also seem to be vastly underestimating a battlecannon because of some weird issue with blast weapons. Scatter is too severe with BS3 and a 6" template? If that is the case you probably don't run any blast weapons in your army which means we're wasting our time discussing the other merits(or lack of) of a defiler.

Sazzlefrats wrote:
I'll still take the lash over WOC or Bolt of Change... for 155, I got a combat monster that strikes first, and has an effective charge range of 12"+2d6+6", or 25", a demon prince with WOC has an effective shooting range of 12"+8"... you're being outplayed by 5". With all the new anti-psycker stuff out there, maybe a plain old nurgle flying demon prince is the answer, too bad that costs as much as a very effective slannesh lash equipped demon prince with wings... Sure WOC can cause a lot of damage, but.... I've got one more turn of shooting before it does its thing, so a bolt of change and the lash, both get to do their thing a turn sooner. Maybe a nurgle demon prince with WOC.. hard to say if any mark on a demon prince makes it any more survivable though. The lash creates the best synergy with anything else you will field so, thats why its gets my vote.

Lash is becoming worse and worse as time goes on and people realize how easy it is to defeat or ignore. How many armies have little or no lashable units these days? You also seem to be overlooking the fact that the DP shares a lot of the drawbacks that you damned the defiler for. Lets take a look:

Sazzlefrats wrote:entirely too large of a model

Check. Especially with wings.

Sazzlefrats wrote:if it starts on the board at the beginning of the game, you are almost always guaranteed that it'll not be there at the end of the game

Check. DPs are usually first priority.

Sazzlefrats wrote:Any player worth his salt will shoot it melta guns before it becomes an issue

Check, only with other high strength high volume weapons. The DP is only T5 and 3+/5++ with MoS/Lash. 4 wounds don't last long when facing heavy support fire, even in cover.

Sazzlefrats wrote:the sad thing about defilers is that once you pop them... you are safe

Check

Sazzlefrats wrote:only a threat when it gets into assault range

Check.

Halsfield,

I did not advocat loading up a rhino with a ton of upgrades, we all know a rhino is supposed to die, adding a 2nd weapon, tends to slow the process. Especially now with IG stepping up with leafblower lists, glancing shots are much more common. If the extra weapon wastes another autocannon unit to spend fire on the rhino, its one less shooting at my infantry. I say thats a good deal for just 5pts, spending anymore than that is probably a waste unless you have a good plan.

Theorizing that I don't bring blast weapons and stating I'm wasting your time because of that...Lets just drop that, you are wrong for saying that and obviously we all know that oblits are a great source of blast weapons. If you don't run oblits you have to run defilers, and/or vindicators. I field 5-6 oblits. And almost always run a single defiler. Thats plenty of blast.

DP with wings... wings according to the rule book are not a legal target.

Yes lash is not what it was a few months ago, WOC isn't the answer either... glancing hits take too long to kill a vehicle, bolt of change can do it. Lash prince is still the cheapest, that's my answer... I guess.

I think the old template for Chaos... 2 lashes, heavy support laden with template weapons... and anything else, is still pretty much the right answer, even today. The metagame is changing, we need another codex, maybe something that'll bring back the flavor of chaos. Right now its a one build is right for everyone codex.

Sazzlefrats wrote:Right now its a one build is right for everyone codex.

No... I can field a dozen army lists from codex CSM, at least, that will play on the top tables virtually anywhere. The #1 reason you don't see many diff chaos lists out there is because people on the internet tell them that this is a 1 list dex, show them that list, and they run army successfully.

Since the problem with DPs is they make a big target, I need to give them more to shoot at. The problem with the Defiler is it's another prime target. So what if I just give them more to shoot at, including adding an AV13 Predator:

HQ:
Daemon Prince [205]
Wings, Mark of Tzeetch, Warptime, Wind of Chaos

Abaddon [275]

Heavy Support:
Obliterator Cult (2) [150]

Defiler [170]
Extra CCW (flamer), TL-Lascannon

Predator [135]
TL-Lascannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons

Elites:
Chaos Terminators (4) [160]
Icon of Chaos Glory, Power Fist x1, Heavy Flamer, Combi-Melta x3

Land Raider (Dedicated Transport) [235]
Extra Armour

Chosen Chaos Space Marines (5) [175]
Melta x5, Rhino

Troops:
Chaos Space Marines (10) [215]
Icon of Chaos Glory, Melta, Autocannon, Rhino

Khorne Berserkers (9) [264]
Skull Champion w/Power Fist, Rhino

Plague Marines (7) [216]
Melta x2, Rhino

Noise Marines (9) [300]
Noise Champion w/Doom Siren and PF, Sonic Blasters x6, Rhino


DP is less of a target when you have a Defiler, a Predator, a Land Raider, and two Rhinos rushing forward.

Termies are back to riding with Abaddon. Icon of Chaos Glory all but eliminates the chance they will flee. Since they won't be Deep Striking, Personal Icons have been removed from all units.

Oblits might Deep Strike now, depending on the opponent. Defiler will shoot Battlecannon and Lascannon at choice targets, Predator will do the same, or mow down Horde with Heavy Bolter Sponsons.

Chosen will Outflank on Armour.

Khorne Berserkers and Noise Marines will move forward on enemy Objectives. CSM and Plague Marines will camp mine.

Is this a step in the right direction?

Mizzri, two suggestions.

First, that Predator should keep the autocannon turret and get the Las sponsons. Not the other way around. This way, you've got 3 weapons that can do 1 job, not 1 weapon that's working while the heavy bolters sit there waiting until it suffers a weapon destroyed or the situation pops up that they become useful.

Second, I really think that Abaddon works better with an anti-hoarde unit like Berzerkers. As someone already said, your main problem will be tarpitting, not hard targets with him.


I guess what I'm seeing is a very very dense army that isn't as killy as it could be. Abaddon is 275 points. That's an insane point sink. Even the Chosen squad is money. Do you really think you're going to need 5 meltaguns to get the job done?

Kungfuhustler wrote:

Sazzlefrats wrote:Right now its a one build is right for everyone codex.

No... I can field a dozen army lists from codex CSM, at least, that will play on the top tables virtually anywhere. The #1 reason you don't see many diff chaos lists out there is because people on the internet tell them that this is a 1 list dex, show them that list, and they run army successfully.

I ran a dozen different lists before ard boyz last year. What I ended up with what looks just like the internet list. 2 lashes preferably on DP's, heavy support loaded with template weapons, anything else to your own liking. My twist was the chosen in rhino's outflanking... actually a buddy of mine came up with the 5 chosen, 3 melta, 2 flamer chosen with a combi-plasma rhino.


Anyhow, Mizzri, I think your DP should be a lash, run abaddon, but make the other dp a lash one. Or try it as a lash and see what you think. Your CSM squad, make it double melta or just assault weapons of your choice. You probably want to rush with that unit, drop the auto cannon is my thought, also.. not sure if the IOCG is worth taking on any squad, its a personal preference. I don't run any icons, doesn't seem to be a problem, but I run champions to get ld10, consider at least one flamer on the chosen, or combi weapons on the rhino if it outflanks a lot. The predator has no reason to rush forward so give it more anti-tank (a la NuggzTheNinja). Wish I saw a way to get more oblits in your list, at least 3. But otherwise I think your list isn't too bad. Maybe find a way to get a power fist on your CSM squad?

Mizzri wrote:Since the problem with DPs is they make a big target, I need to give them more to shoot at. The problem with the Defiler is it's another prime target. So what if I just give them more to shoot at, including adding an AV13 Predator

You need more things for your opponent to shoot at...but the defiler doesn't fit that bill because people like to shoot at it... O_o

Halsfield wrote:You need more things for your opponent to shoot at...but the defiler doesn't fit that bill because people like to shoot at it... O_o

If they're shootin' at muh Defiler, that means they ain't shootin' at Abby or muh DP =P

Mizzri wrote:

If they're shootin' at muh Defiler, that means they ain't shootin' at Abby or muh DP =P

I know...that's what I said to you. =p The O_o was a confused face because I didn't understand why you didn't see how useful the defiler was for drawing fire.

You said: "I need to give them more to shoot at. The problem with the Defiler is it's another prime target. So what if I just give them more to shoot at, including adding an AV13 Predator". You obviously understand how to use the defiler's high priority/large size as a benefit and not a downside (as I tried to explain to sazzlefrats), but can you see how the way you wrote that gives a slightly different impression?

Btw, I'd really advise against DSing your oblits when they are the only thing DSing. That is basically suiciding 225pts to trade for at best a 220pt tank. If you want a DSing squad to kill a LR or something take a 105pt termicide squad and leave the oblits. It is kind of the same thing as when you were using the oblits for lascannons. Unless you're planning on using weapons most other HS/elites can't take (plasma cannons/multi-melta) or swapping weapons often, the oblits are not a good choice.

Now if you were DSing multiple units (ie abaddon, 2-3 termicide squads, and 2-3 oblit squads, then you could have something(although I'm not really sure I'd recommend that strategy, but is better than just DSing your oblits to their doom). If they had cover they could continue firing past the first turn and continue dealing out the pain because their heavy support would be blown up by the termicide units or tied up with the rest. This also would give your other units more time to drive up in their rhinos and keep them mostly out of harm as the attention is on the DSed units in their face. It would be a great counter to a gunline attempt.

Sazzlefrats wrote:Halsfield,

I did not advocat loading up a rhino with a ton of upgrades, we all know a rhino is supposed to die, adding a 2nd weapon, tends to slow the process. Especially now with IG stepping up with leafblower lists, glancing shots are much more common. If the extra weapon wastes another autocannon unit to spend fire on the rhino, its one less shooting at my infantry. I say thats a good deal for just 5pts, spending anymore than that is probably a waste unless you have a good plan.

The bolter isn't expensive, but that bolter across all of your rhinos starts to add up, especially when trying to protect a vehicle that is destined to die at some point. Protecting against autocannons(or whatever) is fine, but rhinos can be glanced by a huge variety of weapons both common and plentiful.

Sazzlefrats wrote:
Theorizing that I don't bring blast weapons and stating I'm wasting your time because of that...Lets just drop that, you are wrong for saying that and obviously we all know that oblits are a great source of blast weapons. If you don't run oblits you have to run defilers, and/or vindicators. I field 5-6 oblits. And almost always run a single defiler. Thats plenty of blast.

No...I said if it was the case that you didn't run any blast weapons we would be wasting our time arguing the merits of a blast weapon using vehicle. There is a big difference between that and saying you are wasting my time(note even if you didn't run blast weapons I said our time). Since you claim that you do use blast template weapons in your list that negates what I said and thus we are not wasting our time.

The rest of this quote I don't understand whatsoever. You argued that the blast weapon on the defiler was ineffective because of severe scatter. Now you are saying that not only do you love blast weapons but you also run a defiler in your lists often. How can you say they are of marginal use when you run one in your list? What the heck are we still talking about here? All I'm looking for is to hear you say that you were too harsh is saying "of marginal use". Since you use a defiler in your lists it obviously isn't true, but you still defend your earlier point while undermining it yourself.

If you don't run oblits you have to run defilers? What? You are overlooking our two excellent choices the predator and the havoc squad. If you were talking about just what blast weapon you take then you're leaving out the dreadnought and any missile launcher using squad.

Sazzlefrats wrote:
DP with wings... wings according to the rule book are not a legal target.

You are correct on the wings (even though the rulebook admits they are technically part of the body). That still does not keep it from being a very large infantry model and thus a sizable target that you damned the defiler for (and yet somehow still run one). You also chose not to respond to any of the other things I stated. You also didn't reply to the hypocrisy of attacking the defiler while your prized DP has most if not all of the same flaws (some you even stated as benefits when talking about the DP, and drawbacks when talking about the defiler).

Sazzlefrats wrote:
Yes lash is not what it was a few months ago, WOC isn't the answer either... glancing hits take too long to kill a vehicle, bolt of change can do it. Lash prince is still the cheapest, that's my answer... I guess.

Being cheap doesn't matter (and really, 5pts less is not an amazing savings) when it is outright useless against most common army lists. I also didn't say WoC glancing vehicles was the strongest point of the power, merely a side bonus that makes it an even better choice. You can get in close to a unit(something a DP excels at doing quickly) and blast them with a flamer template that wounds everything on 4+ (50% of the time) with no saves. That means 50% of the time any space marine under that template is dying, and if you can touch a vehicle with it as well (ie a unit that just disembarked and is thus still clumped and still near its rhino) you just made back a huge amount of points, and that is even before you charge and clean up the rest with your DPs crazy good CC ability.

Sazzlefrats wrote:
I think the old template for Chaos... 2 lashes, heavy support laden with template weapons... and anything else, is still pretty much the right answer, even today. The metagame is changing, we need another codex, maybe something that'll bring back the flavor of chaos. Right now its a one build is right for everyone codex.

So you both admit the meta game makes lash almost useless against most opponents, but you continue to take them. You argue that both flamer template weapons (like the WoC we just had) and blast templates (too severe a scatter, remember?) are poor choices for heavy support, but you choose a HS section laden with them.

It definitely is not a one build for everyone codex. Stelek easily proved that if all of the top winning GT/ard boyz lists didn't. Taking useless powers on prime targets and spending large amounts of points on a tiny amount of models that die easily and get a poor amount of shots is not smart strategy. It was a trendy list when the codex came out and it has only gotten worse. Adapt or keep wasting points, your call.

One more list concept to look over. This one might satisfy the "Lash Lovers" and the "Wind Wanters".

HQ:
Daemon Prince [205]
Wings, Mark of Tzeetch, Warptime, Wind of Chaos

Chaos Sorcerer [165]
Mark of Slaanesh, Personal Icon, Lash of Submisson, Familiar, Wind of Chaos

Heavy Support:
Obliterator Cult (3) 225

Defiler [150]
Extra CCW (flamer)

Predator [130]
Lascannon Sponsons

Elites:
Chaos Terminators (5) [200]
Mark of Slaanesh, Chainfist w/Personal Icon, Heavy Flamer, Combi-Melta x2

Land Raider (dedicated Transport) [240]
Daemonic Possession

Chosen Chaos Space Marines (5) [185]
Icon of Chaos Glory, Melta x3, Flamer x2, Rhino

Troops:
Chaos Space Marines (10) [215]
Icon of Chaos Glory, Melta, Autocannon, Rhino

Khorne Berserkers (9) lead by Sorcerer [264]
Skull Champion w/Power Fist, Rhino

Plague Marines (7) [226]
Plasma x2, Rhino

Noise Marines (10) [305]
w/ Doom Siren, Power Fist, Personal Icon, Sonic Blasters x6, Rhino

2500 points
54 models
17 kill points


Strategy Changes:
DP would Deep Strike into a trouble spot. Every team except the Plague Marines has a Personal Icon on it. The DP can DS and pop Wind of Chaos on the unit.

Sorcerer will ride with the Khorne Berserkers in a Rhino. He can Lash unit from inside, or Wind of Chaos before Assaulting alongside the KBs.

Oblits are back up to 3-strong, and will not DS.

Defiler is a fire Magnet, working in tandem with the Defiler and Predator.

Termies will not Deep Strike due to the Land Raider. If I had another Defiler or Predator I'd go with that instead, but since I don't I'm trying to use the LR. It's AV14 and sports 2 TL_Lascannon sponsons, so it can be the fire Fire Magnet while transporting the Termies into Assault. I'm not sure I like the kit I've put on the Termies yet though - any ideas? Can they disembark and shoot before charging into Assault (the LR being an Assault vehicle)?

Chosen will Outflank, and have an IoCG to act as a DS homer and to prevent being forced to fall back. 3 Meltas for Amour flanking, and 2 Flamers in case the table edge roll doesn't go my way, and I run into Horde or MEQs.

CSM and Plague Marines camp home Objectives.

KBs and Noise Marines Assault enemy Objectives.

Thoughs? I've been at this all day, so it wouldn't surprise me if I've lost objectivity, but I think I might be on to something here.......