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I'm copying and pasting most of the arguments for both sides from the thread in the Tournament Forum.

asugradinwa wrote:Page 95 of BRB. It says that the vehicles count as having moved at cruising speed during the turn's shooting phase.

Danny Internets wrote:

asugradinwa wrote:Page 95 of BRB. It says that the vehicles count as having moved at cruising speed during the turn's shooting phase.

That doesn't answer my question. Your argument seems to hinge on the phrase "counts as" being utterly meaningless in game terms. Either it makes the vehicle count as, for all intents and purposes (not just some), having moved between 6 and 12 inches, or it does not.

For the record, I agree that Drop Pods should absolutely not count for extra kill points, but that's simply an opinion. I'm addressing the argument you have proposed, which is flawed.

Danny Internets wrote:Again, curious logic for the same reasons I have already presented. You are picking and choosing which situations "counts as" is allowed to satisfy without any justification.

In short, if a unit "counts as" satisfying the conditions for being restricted to shooting a single weapon, then it may only shoot a single weapon. If a unit "counts as" satisfying the conditions for moving more than 6" in a single phase, then it is worth 3 kill points.

On what grounds are you claiming the first argument is valid while the latter is not?

pretre wrote:

Danny Internets wrote:

Please read more closely as I'm continually having to repeat myself and I already addressed this. The rules DO NOT say they count as moving at cruising speed with respect to shooting. The rules say that they count as moving at cruising speed in the Shooting phase. That is a very significant difference.

Drop pod counts as moving at cruising speed, even though it did not.

There you go. All fixed.

Drop pod never can move more than 6" during any phase. Even though it counts as moving more than 6", it never does or can. Hence the use of counts as.

Cruising speed is a state. You can be given it, or you can gain it by moving a certain distance.

Because you have it, does not mean you moved (and should be clear with quite casual observation).

The Ard Boy'z rule is pretty specific about units moving 6" for the VP. By RAW, being so specific excludes a drop pod, that "counts as" moving at cruising speed. No specific distance is given for cruising speed for a drop pod, 6" or 6 miles. Furthermore, if I remember correctly the rules, doesn't it say anything that can move over 6"? Drop pods never move, they deploy.

@Fearspect: I like that cruising speed is a state of being. I'll go with that.

Btw, thanks M for the move.

On this occasion, I find myself seeing Danny Internets’ point.

“Counts as” within the context of the 40k rules, means that even though a given thing is not another thing, or did not do a specified thing, for the purposes of other rules you treat it as if it had.

In the case of a Drop Pod, the fact that it counts as moving at cruising speed the turn it lands means it cannot fire a weapon that turn, since it is not a Fast vehicle.

In the case of a Blood Angels Land Raider, or a Land Speeder, the fact that it counts as moving at cruising speed means that in the following turn the enemy will need 6s to hit it in HTH, unless they first immobilize the vehicle.

Because the Deep Strike rules state that a vehicle arriving by than means counts as moving at cruising speed, then it does so for the purposes of all other rules.

Now, let’s take a look at the rules for the scenario:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1120521a_40KArdBoyzPrelimScenarios.pdf

3 kill points are awarded for each unit destroyed that
has the potential to move over 6” in a single phase of
the game turn. Running and fleeing units do not count.
For example, a unit of Necron Warriors being pulled
through a Monolith would not count for extra kill points.
A Librarian with Gate of Infinity is 3 kill points, though a
Space Marine Tactical Squad joining him is 1 KP.

This is a badly-worded rule. “Potential to move” is pretty vague. Overall, though, based on how “counts as” works, I tend to think that Drop Pods would generally fall into this category. That said, I agree with Danny that it certainly seems like an oversight, and I would be very happy to see GW issue a clarification. Right now I know of at least one location which has ruled that pods will be worth 3KPs, and it’s not cool for it to be inconsistent.

Mannahnin wrote:On this occasion, I find myself seeing Danny Internets’ point.

That's twice in one week, I think. Could become a habit.


I give up. It is quite possible my opinion of the intention is overruling my rational mind because I can't get around the whole counts as thing.

And I completely agree that they should define what does and does not count.

pretre wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:On this occasion, I find myself seeing Danny Internets’ point.

That's twice in one week, I think. Could become a habit.

You are a mean man.

I give up. It is quite possible my opinion of the intention is overruling my rational mind because I can't get around the whole counts as thing.

It is a weird situation. I keep going back and forth on it. From a game balance/intent perspective, is it even that unjust that a pod and a rhino count as the same number of KPs?

What about the fact that the drop pod deploys immobilized? Does that lend credibility to the fact that a drop pod shouldnt count as the 3 KP, I mean I can understand if the ruling anything that moves as cruising speed which I guess it does when it comes into play but it gains no benefits from moving at cruising speed because it comes into play immobilized.. hmm.. quite the conundrum.

Mannahnin wrote:
You are a mean man.

Sometimes.

Mannahnin wrote:
It is a weird situation. I keep going back and forth on it. From a game balance/intent perspective, is it even that unjust that a pod and a rhino count as the same number of KPs?

Rhinos are bunkers though. Drop pods are cool and all, but I would much rather have my rhinos. From an intent perspective, I think that the 'Kill da fast 'uns' thing would perhaps indicate tha drop pods aret:

a) ... ded killy and fast. Sum uv dem is even red. +3 KP
b) ... just a blowed up 'ole in da ground. Not wurf my time. +1 KP

Where as Rhinos are pretty much always A.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shatter.proof wrote:but it gains no benefits from moving at cruising speed because it comes into play immobilized.. hmm.. quite the conundrum.

Same with any skimmer that DSs into Difficult Terrain though.

Okay, totally deleted my posts and didn't move them over. That's coll I was just snarky earlier. This is basically how my rant went earlier:

[Rant]

Counts as does not mean did or did not move.

There is no phase of the game where a drop pod moves. Ever. Period.

If it actually moved there is no need to have counts as, RAW is exactly as written no interpretation allowed.


Count as does not actually make it so no matter how much people want to say that it does

[/Rant]

Honestly I don't care as I am playing Eldar. The real reason I jumped on this is people are too quick to say this is rules as written. And more often than not it is Rule as written and interpretted by me.

If you really want to know if you are using RAW read it out loud and don't think it means anything one way or the other. In fact I will often read it to someone that has no idea how the game is played and ask them what they heard. And i did this today.

Me: Listen to this sentence "yadda yadda counts as moving yadda yadda

Random College student in computer lab: Cool, *keeps clicking farm stuff on facebook*

Me: So did the drop pod move?

RCsicl: What? *More facebook games* Wait read it one more time.

Me: Yadda yadda "Counts As" yadda yadda. Did it actually move?

RCsicl: Well no, it justs counts as moving right?

Me: *Types furiously pointless rant on Dakka Dakka about RAW*

RCsicl: Can you accept my happy otter so I can find a whale egg

Me: What is a whale egg?

That should be the new RAW rule. 'Ask a Farmville Guy'

pretre wrote:That should be the new RAW rule. 'Ask a Farmville Guy'

QFT

In the end GW just needs to clarify this. I know at my LGS it is not going to count for 3KP's.

There is no clarification needed.

Did it move over 6" in a single phase? (yes/no)

I think it would be 3 KPs because my line of reasoning follows what Danny Internets has already stated. I do not think it should, and I don't think game balance is enhanced one iota by the silliness of this mission, but "counts as" means that for all practical purposes you are that thing, and counts as movement is the same as movement. Immobilization shouldn't have anything to do with it; if I Deep Strike a Blood Angels Land Raider into terrain and become immobilized, I never really had the potential to move at all either, but it should absolutely be 3 KPs.

In the same vein, the wording for Deep Strike states that on a scatter result, the model is moved 2d6"; this is why I think that any Deep Striking unit should count as well.

GW threw a ridiculously poorly worded scenario out for a rules lawyering 'Ard event without even an off-the-cuff clarification of all the stickier points. I have no idea what they intended or not, but the key words 'move' and 'potential' for some number over 6 are present for both pods and regular DSing units so I can only really conclude that this is as was intended.

Reading this rule to me is simply stated for vehicles/bikes/beasts and/or characters that have the ability to move like one of the three.

So sadly, yes the Pod would count being a vehicle, but it doesn't have the ability to move as it's immobile ALL THE TIME (though I could play it either way really).

There really is no need to continue hashing it out here as your TO will be the one making the final decision. And just like last years Deff Rolla argument, I know some TO allowed them to hit vehicles, some did not and it was not consistent throughout the different levels.

So relax, "communicate" with the store your playing at, don't cry, and bring your list.

Here's a better idea for those thinking they've got this round won - call the store you're going to next and ask them.

By RAW I'd say it's only worth 1 KP since it technically never moves further than 6", and from my perspective (this may or may not be RAI), the difference between a drop pod and other transports is that you can stay inside the latter and have protection until it is wrecked or explodes, whereas the former gives you no protection other than perhaps a cover save, and is more of a way to deploy troops than to have them moved around (more safely).

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Monolith being unable to move more than 6" at any time yet.

Mannahnin wrote:

I give up. It is quite possible my opinion of the intention is overruling my rational mind because I can't get around the whole counts as thing.

It is a weird situation. I keep going back and forth on it. From a game balance/intent perspective, is it even that unjust that a pod and a rhino count as the same number of KPs?

Funny thing, though - the Tyranid Spore Pods, not being vehicles, don't count as moving at Cruising speed.

Is it just that a "living" drop pod counts for 1 KP, while the mechanical one counts for 3? (Granted, the Drop Pod is quite a bit more robust.)

Remember the example given for a unit of tactical Marines depstriking with a Librarian that has cast GoI. The squad counts as 1 KP while the Librarian counts as 3 KP. So a squad of deepstriking terminators should count as 1 KP. Are you going to claim that an infantry unit embarked in a transport counts as 3 KP? The drop pod is a hard call but most everything else is simple if you use common sense.

G

Taking it up one notch - the SW Termies use pods instead of DS - but it's easy to draw a comparison to the unit "deep striking" via pod vs teleport.

I really don't have a cock in the fight as I'm DS and don't have pods in my army.

But I have no sympathy for all those Valks

Scenario 3 is one of the WORST missions I have ever seen in my life.

It does seem to imply that a unit with a Transport is worth 3KP, as well as the Transport itself being worth 3KP.

Hell, taking ANY transports means any unit that could possibly embark on them is worth 3KP.

It's a stupid attempt to try and "balance" mech armies that has failed massively. They should have just been honest and said "Vehicles are worth 3KP".

It in no way implies that Gwar.

G

Isn't the 'ard boyz created and run by US GW guys?

As such can't someone contact them and get clarification on stuff like this (apologies if this has been covered in the other thread already, I haven't read it yet)?

Deep strike is a deployment, not a movement. The drop pod is immobile. After is deploys, it's movement is 0.

Do deepstiking termi's count for 3?
Would you count outflanking units as moving over 6"? I'm pretty sure the answer is no for both.

@eimaj:
The issue is, units that are outlflanking and non-vehicle deepstrikers count as moving, but it doesn't indicate a specific distance moved.

Vehicles deepstriking have a specific distance they have 'count as' moved...to arrive at their destination.

Otherwise, it was stupidly written for the wrong event.

Deep Striking most certainly is movement. That's an old argument. The DS rules say or imply that it is movement three separate times in the text.

The fact that a pod is immobile on landing doesn't matter. So could be a land speeder or BA land raider if it lands in difficult terrain.

Our FLGS has ruled Pods and Monoliths will NOT be 3KP for this mission since they can't move more than 6" at any time. The Deep Strike itself is not being counted towards this rule. Terminators, Soul Grinders, etc will also not be 3KP.

Deep Striking Land Raiders and Speeders are 3KP because of their inherent movement abilities as are Jump Pack models, Deffkoptas, and Valkyries.

Mannahnin wrote:Deep Striking most certainly is movement. That's an old argument. The DS rules say or imply that it is movement three separate times in the text.

The fact that a pod is immobile on landing doesn't matter. So could be a land speeder or BA land raider if it lands in difficult terrain.

It does indeed matter, as both of those vehicles you use are still capable of moving in ensuing turns if they pass their DT test or land in open ground; a drop pod is always immobile.

The rules for ABM3 say that anything that can move more than 6" a turn is worth 3 KP, but there's no mention of actual distance when deep striking, only a type of speed. Now, if they specified cruising speed as a qualifier, then it would be different. What about something like Spore Pods, which don't qualify as moving at any sort of speed. Would they somehow be exempt and drop pods wouldn't?

on a unit potentially being able to move more then 6"


since the rules specifically mentions a Librarian with GoI i will use it as an example.

if the librarian is thought of as a "transport" and the tac squad as passangers then a Tac squad with a rhino is worth, 1 KP for the squad(2 if they combat squad) and 3 KPs for the rhino.


i think the argument about the DPs could go either way. they cost the same as a rhino so that supports the they are worth 3 KPs argument.

on the other hand they never move, ever. so are they worth 1 KP.



I definitly think this needs a FAQ from GW.

My opinion is they are worth 1 KP.


i come to this by defining movement as being able to move from point A to point B in the course of a movement phase.

models with the potential to move 6+ inches are under the 3KP catagory. so a DSing BA LR will count for 3 KP, even if it is immobilized.

a Drop pod never has the ability to move, so i say it is worth 1 KP.

This is probably unfair if you face a DP army with no vehicles besides dreadnoughts and drop pods in mission 3.


Monoliths are worth 1 KP as they can only ever move 6"

In response to Yakface, yes this is all created by the Trade guys who otherwise spend all their days sitting behind a big phone bank.

Any FLGS could contact thier rep and get the whole issue resolved. Its really that simple. They are ALL good guys. Some of the best at GW as far as concern for customers goes. And most likely one guy wrote this scenario and while tough as nails to play against and a real competitive player he often over estimates the intelligence of tourney players to understand what he means.

Someone call them and get this taken care of!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW, if you count scatter I understand why drop pods would be 3KP. Can anyone show me in what phase a drop pod moves more than 6 inches?