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Scattering isn't movement.

you don't hit where you want to go and then roll to see if you bounce.

The Green Git wrote:Our FLGS has ruled Pods and Monoliths will NOT be 3KP for this mission since they can't move more than 6" at any time. The Deep Strike itself is not being counted towards this rule. Terminators, Soul Grinders, etc will also not be 3KP.

Deep Striking Land Raiders and Speeders are 3KP because of their inherent movement abilities as are Jump Pack models, Deffkoptas, and Valkyries.

^^ This is win.

except soulgrinders have fleet.

Fleet is mentioned as a criteria for 3KPs

No, it doesn't. It says "single phase".

ok, i stand corrected.

I must say...

Okay, I'll give my 2 cents here.

Issue: Whether or not a Drop Pod, on a turn when it deploys, potentially moved more than 6" during any single phase of the said turn.

Rule: Drop Pods deep striking count as moving at cruising speed
Drop Pods are Immobile and therefore cannot move
Units that can potentially move over 6 inches are worth 3 kill points, KP for short.

Analysis: During a turn when a Drop Pod arrives, the Drop Pod, under the vehicle rules pg 98, count as moving at cruising speed. The Drop Pod under its own rules is immobile and therefore has no potential to move at all. Therefore the question is whether or not the Drop Pod has the potential to move more than 6 inches on the turn it Deep Strikes. When a Drop Pod arrives via Deep Striking did it have the potential to move more than 6 inches? It would seem that it does not have the ability to move at all. Deep Striking, even with deviation included, only pertains to where the final deployment of the unit. It can be construed "count as moving" under pg 98 of the main rulebook. In fact, the Drop Pod, potentially did not move at all from one point to another on the table. One may argue that the deviation is a movement. The fact is that when a unit Deep Strikes the target location is only a "potential" landing spot and not the final, conclusive location where the Deep Striking unit will land. Therefore the Deep Striking unit that deviates did not "potentially" move since that final location is the actual landing spot.

Deep Striking does not equate to potentially moving a unit from one spot to another. It is merely a rule utilized to ensure a final target location for a unit that arrives by Deep Striking to be deployed on the playing surface. Therefore, immobile vehicles that deep strikes onto the playing surface should not equate to "potentially" moved since it did not move from one point to another on the playing surface.

Throw another wrench. Someone earlier mentioned fleet as a prerequisite for the 3kp rule. How? The scenario says

"3 kill points are awarded for each unit destroyed that has the potential to move over 6” in a single phase of the game turn. "

Fleet is in a seperate phase to movement, its done in the shooting phase. Unless I misunderstood, then disregard my rant.

Just spoke with a rep GW and he related the following: "GW is aware of the issue with scenario 3's ruling on KP and they are going to be adding a clarification this week."

Thats all I got for now. So feel free to continue debating but soon we will have an answer.

yakface wrote:
Isn't the 'ard boyz created and run by US GW guys?

As such can't someone contact them and get clarification on stuff like this (apologies if this has been covered in the other thread already, I haven't read it yet)?

Taken from a local board near the GW HQ

http://icgc.users-board.net/tournaments-f11/may-15th-40k-ard-boyz-games-and-stuff-t563.htm#7365

joeneet @ GW wrote:Hello All,

My self and one of my fellow workers wrote these Ard Boys scenarios. For the Kill the Fast ones mission, the intent was as Matt pointed out, for units that moved once on the table. The Drop Pod is an oddity, and if anyone has written any scenarios before, you can never plan for every possible glitch or rules issue. Games Workshop made a choice to write new scenarios so that gamers would not have to play the same old ones from year to year. But from the apparent irritation of the community we should stick to the 3 missions and deployments from the core rulebook.

We should have a clarification up shortly to cover this unclear scenario.

Well that throws a whole new spin on drop pods just because they can't move 6" in a turn. They are by the very rules of drop pods only able to move the first turn they come in and its stated to act as cruising speed. Although it could be argued what exactly is cruising speed for a drop pod because no actual measurements are being given. I feel (and hope) that GW recognizes at least the very way they wrote the rules that drop pods and many other things can move 6"+ in a round but only once per game, like scout troops using scout movement before first turn, is that 3kp or 1?

Father Gabe wrote:Throw another wrench. Someone earlier mentioned fleet as a prerequisite for the 3kp rule. How? The scenario says

"3 kill points are awarded for each unit destroyed that has the potential to move over 6” in a single phase of the game turn. "

Fleet is in a seperate phase to movement, its done in the shooting phase. Unless I misunderstood, then disregard my rant.

Just spoke with a rep GW and he related the following: "GW is aware of the issue with scenario 3's ruling on KP and they are going to be adding a clarification this week."

Thats all I got for now. So feel free to continue debating but soon we will have an answer.

Fleet wouldn't be a qualifier for 3KP, since the initial movement, run, and then assault are all done in separate phases. So stuff like most Eldar units and Hormagaunts/Termagants don't count as 3KP since they never move more than 6" in any given phase of their own power.

The "scatter distance counting as moving" is also a bad idea because it means stuff like Terminators would count as 3KP when they move as infantry.

Valhallan42nd wrote:

joeneet @ GW wrote:Hello All,

My self and one of my fellow workers wrote these Ard Boys scenarios. For the Kill the Fast ones mission, the intent was as Matt pointed out, for units that moved once on the table. The Drop Pod is an oddity, and if anyone has written any scenarios before, you can never plan for every possible glitch or rules issue. Games Workshop made a choice to write new scenarios so that gamers would not have to play the same old ones from year to year. But from the apparent irritation of the community we should stick to the 3 missions and deployments from the core rulebook.

We should have a clarification up shortly to cover this unclear scenario.

I don't want to take this out of context, but I had a horrible idea that perhaps GW will not only issue a clarification on which are worth 3 KP, but perhaps entirely rework scenario 3. I barely can stand the qq from people with mech lists (I have one and am dealing with it,) but the qq from the opposite side if GW changes the scenario now would be horrible.

Not to say that this email makes me think they will be changing scenario 3, it's just a waking nightmare I had upon reading it.

Wow I am so nervous now about this clarification and its impact on the third mission. I mean this could be really heavy stuff. I may just stop reading the Internet for five years.

G

It sounds more like that quote is saying that they feel like they shouldn't have even bothered to do different missions since everyone got so pissy about it.

I get where they are coming from. There is/was a lot of 'OMG 3 KPS!!!ONE111!!! IT IS THE END OF THE 40K WORLD' and not a lot of 'YAYS FREE TOURNEYMENT FOR FREES!!!'


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Black Blow Fly wrote:Wow I am so nervous now about this clarification and its impact on the third mission. I mean this could be really heavy stuff. I may just stop reading the Internet for five years.

G

Oh, that BBF. He's such a wacky guy.

I'm not seeing anyone actually having posted the text from the scenario...

• 3 kill points are awarded for each unit destroyed that
has the potential to move over 6” in a single phase of
the game turn. Running and fleeing units do not count.
For example, a unit of Necron Warriors being pulled
through a Monolith would not count for extra kill points.
A Librarian with Gate of Infinity is 3 kill points, though a
Space Marine Tactical Squad joining him is 1 KP.

• 2 kill points are awarded for each HQ unit killed.

• If an HQ unit has the potential to move over 6” it counts
for 3 kill points. Kill points are not cumulative for the
sake of killing one unit.

Drop pod enters play AT THE POINT OF THE SCATTER DICE RESOLUTION
Drop pod can no longer move

Is the above incorrect? How can a unit with no ability to move be considered to have the potential to move > 6" in a single game phase?

Fullybakedbear...stop making sense...really. Common sense is not a common virtue. We cannot have that sort of behaviour here.

As for you Pretre, I concour...YAY FREE TOURNAMENT...YAY WITH FREE PRIZES!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With the wording on the 3kp, its based on if the unit can move more than 6" in any given phase of the game turn. It is looking like, deep strikers are the exception, unless they can move more than 6" in a turn...for example: A Space Marine Assault Squad can deep strike with Jump Packs, they can also move 12" in the movement phase, therefore they qualify for the 3kp rule. Or: Terminator squad deep strikes, can only move 6" max in any phase, they do not qualify for the 3kp.

To those that are on the count as cruising speed argument for drop pods, what is the distance defined as cruising speed of a drop pod?

You are comparing it to other vehicles whose cruising speed is over 6" yet a drop pod does not have a defined cruising speed. Cruising speed for a drop pod could be 7" or 1" but it isn't defined and therefore there is no basis to say that a drop pod moves over 6".

Just because it counts as moving at cruising speed does not mean it automatically moves like other vehicles that have a defined cruising speed distance.

All vehicles have a defined cruising speed - 6" - 12". So you know it has moved at least 6". Meaning it is 3KP.

Unless you can point to a line in the rulebook whcih states that cruising speed is variable below 6"?

And on the contrary - unless it has a *specific* rule overriding the BRB, we know *exactly* what what cruising speed is for a drop pod - same as any general vehicle.

nosferatu1001 wrote:All vehicles have a defined cruising speed - 6" - 12". So you know it has moved at least 6". Meaning it is 3KP.

Unless you can point to a line in the rulebook whcih states that cruising speed is variable below 6"?

And on the contrary - unless it has a *specific* rule overriding the BRB, we know *exactly* what what cruising speed is for a drop pod - same as any general vehicle.

No we don't since a drop pod has no listed distance for it's movement speed. So we cannot automatically assume that a drop pod's cruising speed distance is comparable to other vehicles when it "counts as" cruising speed.

You are taking a drop pod and giving it the cruising speed of what other vehicles have defined as cruising speed when it is not like the other vehicles at all in terms of movement.

Q:Is the drop pod a vehicle?

A:Yes.

Therefore it is a normal vehicle and follows all the normal rules for vehicles. Unless you have a RULE which states otherwise?

No? Then it has a defined set of speeds, of which cruising speed is well defined.

Don’t make me support Nos in an argument. He’s right. All non-walker, non-Fast vehicles have the same base cruising speed, which is over 6”, up to 12”.

Damn, knew you would have to at some point

Mannahnin wrote:Don’t make me support Nos in an argument. He’s right. All non-walker, non-Fast vehicles have the same base cruising speed, which is over 6”, up to 12”.

3 kill points are awarded for each unit destroyed that
has the potential to move over 6” in a single phase of
the game turn.

Ok, lets try this again with red text for more faster thinkinz.

The scenario does not say jack squat about the base cruising speed or being a vehicle.

POTENTIAL TO MOVE

read that again

POTENTIAL TO MOVE

One more time for the cheap seats

POTENTIAL TO MOVE

Now I haven't played 40k in over a decade but i'm still waiting for anyone to post a situation in which a drop pod, having landed after resolving scatter dice, ever has the POTENTIAL TO MOVE more than 6" in a single phase of the game turn.

If you can post one, you have perfect justification for calling a drop pod a 3 point kill.

Moving 6 to 12 = Cruising speed, not the other way around. Monoliths can deep strike and count as moving at cruising speed, but can never move further than 6" a turn.

Not to mention that argument of yours seems to unfairly benefit Spore Pods, since Cruising Speed doesn't apply to them at all.

So measure 6"+ for the drop pod for being at cruising speed to be counted as 3KP for the scenario.

I am not debating whether or not the drop pod counts as cruising speed. That is specifically in the rules. For the Ard Boy'z rule, it specifies the +6" which the drop pod can never measure in-game. It can count as moving over 6" but can never actually be measured to move 6" so therefore is not 3KP.

Fullybakedbear-
So are you saying that if, as a Blood Angels player, I Deep Strike one of my Land Raiders, and it scatters into terrain and becomes Immobilized, that the Land Raider will only be worth 1KP that game? Because it counts as moving at Cruising Speed the turn it lands, but after that is Immobilized. Just like a drop pod. How about a Rhino which is Immobiized in the shooting phase before its owner gets a turn? DURING the game it never has any potential to move at all.

Brother Ramses-
Can you just do us the courtesy of reading the comments on “counts as” in the first post of the thread? If something “counts as” being or doing something for one purpose, it counts doing so for all purposes.

Is deployment a phase of the game?

kirsanth wrote:Is deployment a phase of the game?

Are you implying that all deep strikers enter during deployment?

No, I am asking a question that is tangential.

fullybakedbear - the turn the drop pod arrives it counts as moving 6" - 12"

It is therefore 3KP.

Simple really. Sorry all drop pod armies, this scenario is not for you - however not liking a rule is not the same as the rule being incorrect.