Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Mannahnin wrote:Fullybakedbear-
So are you saying that if, as a Blood Angels player, I Deep Strike one of my Land Raiders, and it scatters into terrain and becomes Immobilized, that the Land Raider will only be worth 1KP that game? Because it counts as moving at Cruising Speed the turn it lands, but after that is Immobilized. Just like a drop pod. How about a Rhino which is Immobiized in the shooting phase before its owner gets a turn? DURING the game it never has any potential to move at all.

Do you even bother to read someone else's posts? Of course a Land Raider counts as 3KP because it has the potential to move 12" after landing, whereas a drop pod is supposed to be immobilized upon landing.

nosferatu1001 wrote:fullybakedbear - the turn the drop pod arrives it counts as moving 6" - 12"

It is therefore 3KP.

Simple really. Sorry all drop pod armies, this scenario is not for you - however not liking a rule is not the same as the rule being incorrect.

The same goes for you; a drop pod doesn't count as moving 6"-12", it counts as moving as cruising speed, but moving at cruising speed does not mean you moved 6-12"

His point was that, if you deepstrike a LR and it is immobilised it does NOT have the potential to move 6-12" under your definition - it is immoblised on deepstrike.

If you dont count deepstrike as moving 6"-12", which is the commutative part of cruising speed, then a LR that immobilises itself on landing is worth 1KP.

Our local store was told that there would be a forthcoming FAQ to "fix" this whole mess.

nosferatu1001 wrote:His point was that, if you deepstrike a LR and it is immobilised it does NOT have the potential to move 6-12" under your definition - it is immoblised on deepstrike.

If you dont count deepstrike as moving 6"-12", which is the commutative part of cruising speed, then a LR that immobilises itself on landing is worth 1KP.

And my point was, that immobilizing itself when it deep strikes every time is not part of the BA Land Raider's rules. What don't you get?

EDIT: How would you handle Monoliths, then? Or Spore Pods?

EDIT: Or Terminators or Soul Grinders or just about any unit in Codex: Chaos Daemons that is infantry I mean really

nosferatu1001 wrote:His point was that, if you deepstrike a LR and it is immobilised it does NOT have the potential to move 6-12" under your definition - it is immoblised on deepstrike.

If you dont count deepstrike as moving 6"-12", which is the commutative part of cruising speed, then a LR that immobilises itself on landing is worth 1KP.

By this stance, a Land Raider could be immobilized mid-game and go from 3KP to 1KP. Just because it may be immobilized on deep strike, a BA Land Raider when bought has the potential to move 6"+. A drop pod will never move 6"+.

Now back to the other point, I am not debating whether or not a drop pod counts as cruising speed when deep striking. That is clearly spelled out in the Warhammer 40k rules, however it has absolutely no bearing on how the Ard Boy'z rule is spelled out. At no time whatsoever does a drop pod have the potential to move 6"+, which is the requirement for them to count as 3KP.

Now for the counts as cruising speed for everything, what about assaulting drop pods on the turn after they arrive? Does it take a 6 to hit them or are the hits automatic? It counts as moving at cruising speed the previous turn, but was also immobilized the previous turn.

You would automatically hit because it was immobilized, which is the same for all vehicles.

bhsman:

So why does auto-immobilisation (drop pod) override the 3KP, in your view, when a LR that immobilises itself the turn it arrives (and therefore IN THE GAME never moved over 6", acording to your definitions) is in exactly the same boat?

What is so hard to understand that the two situations ARE analogous, and that your spurious auto-immob determiner to override the *fact* that it has moved over 6" is irrelevant?

How do i handle spore pods? Easy, they are NOT vehicles thereofre do not count as moving 6"+ and therefore do not give up 3KP. Sorry, called applying the rules. Again, just because you dont like the rules doesnt change what they are. Repeat for anything infnatry in codex daemon - if they are not a vehicle moving cruising speed they are not 3KP when they deepstrike. Easy.

Brother Ramses - that was the point. Being able to be immobilised is NOT a determiner as towhether it is 3KP. A drop pod DOES MOVE OVER 6" as that is what cruising speed is defined as - and is therefore worth 3KP.

You may not like it, it does not alter the rules.

It's not analogous because:

A) Your analogy only works in a very specific situation for the Land Raider (Deep Striking AND landing in terrain AND failing a DT test) to become immobilized, whereas if both were to land in open terrain only one would be immobilized.

B) Drop Pods actually cannot even land in terrain due to their special rule

C) You continue to promote the misconception that cruising speed always means something moved more than six inches. The other way around, for sure, but there's no indication in the rulebook that cruising speed = you moved 6-12", only that moving 6-12" = cruising speed. What you are doing here is not enforcing RAW or even RAI. On the contrary, is making stuff up.

Not to mention your logic is also contradictory in giving Spore Pods and Daemons a pass while being hung up on the fact that the drop pod is a vehicle. On that grounds alone I say your argument has no merit. By that logic a monolith can never Deep Strike because their rules prevent them from ever going faster than six inches.

Lastly, when you say stuff like:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Simple really. Sorry all drop pod armies, this scenario is not for you - however not liking a rule is not the same as the rule being incorrect.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You may not like it, it does not alter the rules.

Don't. Unless I've been picking apart arguments made by Jervis Johnson himself you're just a nerd arguing with other nerds and being shown up by nerds in a forum dedicated to discussing rules, not prancing about and proclaiming that your way the one true way and everyone else is wrong just because.



EDIT: If the second half of this post is considered backseat modding feel free to remove it

bhsman wrote:B) Drop Pods actually cannot even land in terrain due to their special rule

I stopped reading here because this is completely wrong. Drop Pods can land in Terrain just fone.

Regarding Deep Striking Land Raiders, you are forgetting the wording of the scenario rule. Potential to move more than 6". A Deep Striking Land Raider always has the potential to move more than 6", but if immobilised fails to live up to it.

A) And that was the point - IN THAT GAME according to *your* logic the LR would only be worth 1KP, as it does not have the potential to move >6" - it was immobilised as it lands.

WHich is why it is analogous. Sorry if you cannot see this, but it is.

B) Wrong, SO SO SO wrong. Reread the drop pod rules. Notice the word "reduce" is in there, it is quite important. Now think what happens when you *aim* the pod to land in terrain and roll a "hit", or any scatter at all that leaves it still touching terrain. Understand yet?

C) it is commutative, which isnt making things up but applying the game rules.

Again, sorry you dont like the rule, doesnt alter it. I have shown why you are wrong, which is the opposite of prancing around - again, your posts come across as "this cant be right!" and so you find anything you can think of to determine that drop pods arent 3KP, when they are.

EDIT: sorry, just noticed another error in your post - why was it contradictory? Please show me in RULES where it states non-vehicle units count as moving at a specific speed? I'll give you a clue - there isnt anywhere.

So my logic is not contradictory, you are jsut making stuff up if you think that deep striking spore pods count as moving any specific distance at all - they simply count as moving, and cannot move any further. Hence they are not worth 3KP unless they are beasts or jump infantry. Normal infantry speed ones are worth a single KP even if they DS.

I'd rule Drop Pods as 1KP and Deep Striking Land Raiders as 3KP - A Drop Pod, being auto-immobilized, never has the potential to move more than 6", while a Land Raider does.

Masterslowpoke - except when it arrives it DOES move more than 6". just because it only did it once doesnt mean it is somehow exempt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

UltraPrime wrote:Regarding Deep Striking Land Raiders, you are forgetting the wording of the scenario rule. Potential to move more than 6". A Deep Striking Land Raider always has the potential to move more than 6", but if immobilised fails to live up to it.

Which is why drop pods are 3KP, because the turn they arrive they are moving more than 6".

Just becausse they are immediately immobilised does nto alter that fact. So any reliance on the auto immobilise exempting them is flawed, leaving only the fact they count as moving at cruising speed.

Things that Deep Strike merely count as moving combat speed, they don't actually go that fast. In fact, they're completely prohibited from moving.

Nos, I feel it's a big leap to say that "A vehicle that travels more than 6" and up to 12" is moving at cruising speed." means that if something has been given the status of crusing speed it's moved 6".
We need to remeber that "Certain rare units are permanently immobile." and they arrive via deepstrike which counts as a move, and you're saying because of a status conferred to a vehicle that this allows you to say it has moved more than 6". 'Counts as' is not the same as 'has move more than 6" ' How can you try to make this claim?

Because "counts as" means in all respects - "counts as moving at cruising speed" means it HAS moved at cruising speed.

Being immobilised after landing does not exempt you from the speed you moved at before you landed - otherwise deepstriking landraiders that immobilise themselves are only worth 1KP that game. If you argue that immobilise-on-landing is the reason for only 1KP that is the end result.

No one is arguing that being immobilized removes the bonus killpoints - it's that a drop pod never has the potential to move more than 6".

Counting as moving cruising speed is not the same as actually moving more than 6".

Counts as == does this in all respects. So on the turn it arrives it HAS moved at cruising speed - Agreed?

There is a commutative definition for cruising speed which is 6" -> 12". So you HAVE moved when you arrive and you HAVE moved more than 6" in one phase. 3KP.

Some WERE arguing that immoblised means it has no potential, hence the DS LR corrolary.

Actually, my next argument was going to be that vehicles moving 6" to 12" are moving cruising speed is not commutative. Regardless I don't think it's possible for one of us to convince the other as the rules simply aren't clear enough.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Because "counts as" means in all respects - "counts as moving at cruising speed" means it HAS moved at cruising speed.

I would like some proof for that statment Nos.
You're turning a 'counts as' into an 'it has actually moved more than 6 inches' I'm pretty sure that's a boo-boo - as you are never told how far a deep striking unit has moved - again - you're making the leap that 'counts as' means I have move more than 6". Proooof.

"A vehicle that travels more than 6" and up to 12" is moving at cruising speed." Pg. 57

"In that turn’s Shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous Movement phase. Vehicles count as having moved at cruising speed."

In fact they only count as CS for the shooting phase not even the whole turn.

Also you'd have a hard time swallowing someoen telling you 'counts as having assaulted' means they have assaulted.

Well you "count as"moving at cruising speed, which means every time you do something we can see if Cruising Speed would have an effect. You are the one artificially limiting "counts as" despite having no rule to that effect.

And so what if only one *phase* it counts as having moved at cruising speed? That is all 'ardboyz cares about! If it can move above 6" in *any one phase* it is 3KP. In the shooting phase it has counted as (which means has for determining how far it has moved) moving above 6", which is thedefinition for cruising speed, and therefore is worth 3KP.

Look up boarding planks - it uses "as if" which is similar to "counts as" in this instance. There a model hasnt actually assaulted, but counts as having done so - which is why it can attack a dreadnought without being attacked back.

I view it this way.

A suntan is defined as a tan obtained by the sun, and having a suntan gives you darker skin.

I can get a suntan by going out in the sun. Thus I have a suntan. This method of getting a suntan burns my skin.

I can use fake tan, so now I 'count as' having a suntan. Does this mean I also have burnt skin?

Pika_power wrote:I view it this way.

A suntan is defined as a tan obtained by the sun, and having a suntan gives you darker skin.

I can get a suntan by going out in the sun. Thus I have a suntan. This method of getting a suntan burns my skin.

I can use fake tan, so now I 'count as' having a suntan. Does this mean I also have burnt skin?

I like that. Sort of sums up the nonsense.

As far as the game is concerned you act as if you have burnt skin.

In other words, the game considers you to have moved 6+", so the scenario counts you for 3KP

Ladies and Gents, please please read previous posts, mine or others. To sit here and say this is the RULE or no this is the RULE, when your simply guessing just turns this into a giant rant and argument. GW is going to address this before the tournament (as posted before). Since the tourney is in 3 days, it stands to reason that we can chill out, watch here for the results, wait till the day of the tourney or go to GW's website for the results.

If GW drops the ball, then unless you are the TO for your store that has final say so, dont worry...just wait. It shouldnt change your outcome...its one scenario, you cannot cover every angle for every scenario for every possible opponent list. One last thing, remember this is a game, a friendly tournament that costs you nothing (money wise) and should be appreciative that GW is offering prize support free of charge. Have fun at this one, get ridiculus with your army lists (2500 is so much fun) and enjoy the day...oh...Good Luck, hope you dont face me and my uber killy army of silliness

This isnt guessing, it is applying the criteria the scenario gives and determining what is affected.

If people then dont get that 'arddboyz does, really, mean 'ardboyz and their precious all DP army is going to have a lot of immobile, 3KP scenery pieces that isnt the fault of those on here.

Hopefully they will clarify, and knowing GWs current lurve for all things drop poddy I imagine they WILL go for changing the rules to let DP only count as 1KP, unless and until they do so the RAW answer is 3KP, and this is (as with all things) up to the local TO to decide to change if they want.

I see your point. Im merely trying to calm things down and ask for everyone to sit back, relax and wait for the results to be 100% sure. It doesnt concern me since I dont have mycetic spores in this list but I would hate for someone to get screwed if the rules are unclear as they appear to be to the majority of players.

Mycetic spores wont be messed about with eitherway - it is only vehicles that count as moving at cruising speed (and thus at 6"+), they merely count as having moved - same for any infantry that deepstrikes

Though if it is 3kp for drop pods, then I will be happy in some sense cause there a couple of drop pod lists coming and I could enjoy easy kp's.

WHich is what it is no doubt designed to do - to give footslogging lists a balance against the prevalent mech. Not saying its the best system, but a drop pod SHOULD be equal to a rhino as it performs the primary objective for a transport (getting troops where they need to be faster than on foot) better than a rhino -or at least more reliably!