Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

*NOTE*: The drugs being discussed are not the 25 point combat drug dispenser that lets a character choose the drug(s) they want to use repeatedly throughout the course of the battle. Instead, this is the D6 roll that every wych unit is required to take at the start of the battle.



Hey folks! There's a discussion brewing elsewhere that I thought I would make a thread here about.

Lelith Hesperax is the Leader of the Wych Cult of Strife (Dark Eldar). For those of you who don't know, Dark Eldar wyches roll for drugs at the beginning of the game. Every wych squad rolls a D6 and gets assigned one of the following for the duration of the game:

1: May make a 12" assault move and a 3d6" fall back move.
2: +1 WS
3: +1S
4: Always strikes first
5: Re-roll any misses in close combat
6: +1 Attack

Lelith is a bit different. Her codex entry notes, "As the Wyches in Lelith's Retinue are an Elite force, you may choose which combat drug option they use." IE, instead of rolling a D6, you pick which one you want the squad to have. The codex does not say that Lelith benefits from the drugs, which takes us to the FAQ:

Q. Does Lelith Hesperax gain the advantages of the combat drugs her retinue has?
A. She does, otherwise she would be the only Wych in the army (and probably in the universe) not to use combat drugs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

So what happens when Lelith doesn't have a retinue? The two schools of thought:

1. Every wych in the universe has drugs. How to assign them to her is unclear, but she's clearly supposed to have drugs too.
2. RAW, she gets no drugs without a retinue.

If Lelith does get drugs, there are three ways to make it happen:
1. Lelith rolls for her own drugs, separate from anything else.
2. Lelith doesn't roll for drugs and acquires the drugs of the unit she's with.
3. Lelith chooses the drugs for the unit she is with.

I personally believe that option #2 is the fairest; I don't think she should be able to choose the drugs for a non-retinue wych squad, but she's also supposed to have the same drugs as her unit...so I've chosen to make her auto-pick the drugs of the non-retinue wych squad that she's attached to.

The poll reflects these options. Please weigh in; I'm interested to see what folks think.

Dashofpepper wrote: you may choose which combat drug option they use." FAQ: Q. Does Lelith Hesperax gain the advantages of the combat drugs her retinue has?
A. She does

While the "roll for it" option seems to be the fairest choice.... WHAT AM I SAYING MAN??!!! Youre playing Dark Eldar, FAIREST is not in their blood or playstyle!! Take full advantage of any bonus your army has, cause; lets face it, there aint much else goin for em!

I chose: she chooses. As will most DE players I think.

Voted for the one that follows best the RAW, even though it seems like a load of unfluffy crock.

IMO, she should get whatever drugs she joins...but unfortunately that wouldn't hold up against GW's amazing ability to clearify their own rules.

Farseer Faenyin wrote:Voted for the one that follows best the RAW, even though it seems like a load of unfluffy crock.

IMO, she should get whatever drugs she joins...but unfortunately that wouldn't hold up against GW's amazing ability to clearify their own rules.

Guess I'm going to start playing my RJBs as STR5 T5 instead of STR4 T4 right? The Eldar Jetbike rule tells us to add +1S and +1T to jetbikes. And you shouldn't ever argue when I pin your fearless units, because RAW...the horrorfex does it. =p Maybe I should stop picking and choosing RAW to be fair and just pick the RAW camp.

okay, I will preface my opinion by saying I really think that she should have combat drugs in some form...
but I voted she doesn't get them w/o a retinue for a couple reasons:
> ''Combat drugs,'' the Wych Special Rule is not in her profile; it's mentioned specifically under ''Lelith's Retinue.''
> she's noticeably less points than an equally kitted out Archite with Combat Drugs [the Wargear option].
> I think the reason why Archites/Dracites don't have the special rule ''Combat drugs'' is kind of intentionally to make them get it from the Armoury, which implies that they may not necessarily always use the drugs. As Leltih does not have access to the armoury, she doesn't have access to the drugs outside of those provided by her ''Elite'' retinue.

That being said, I don't understand why any Wych would not have access to/use drugs. Something about the whole she-gains-whatever-drugs-she-joins just doesn't seem to be the solution...

I think she should have them regardless, but I am unsure that she does...and I apologize for adding absolutely nothing to this debate.

[edit] grammar & such...

I didn't vote, b/c I didn't see the option for what I would choose.

In the event that Lelith did not have a retinue, I would choose her Combat Drug from the chart. Any wych squad that she was attached to, I would have "rolled" for their drug as a separate squad as normal.

Personally I would choose hers before rolling the other wyches as well and treat them seperately since she could detach, or never be attached to another squad if you chose not to.

I dont play "friendly" games with my DE... Hell, I havent WON many games with em either.... but I DO play RAW... and yes I give my JBs the extra St (per FAQ) I wondered if GW slipped up here? Dosnt matter tho,

"So It is Written. So shall it be done."

As much as I think perhaps it is intended that she gets drugs, in the absence of any clear ruling, I'd have to side with RAW and say she loses out without her retinue.

I understand what you're saying about the fluff, but if we began following fluff for rulings we'd be in a world of confusion.

ThePhish wrote:I didn't vote, b/c I didn't see the option for what I would choose.

In the event that Lelith did not have a retinue, I would choose her Combat Drug from the chart. Any wych squad that she was attached to, I would have "rolled" for their drug as a separate squad as normal.

Personally I would choose hers before rolling the other wyches as well and treat them seperately since she could detach, or never be attached to another squad if you chose not to.

Then vote option 1; same intent - she gets them but is determined separately.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Then vote option 1; same intent - she gets them but is determined separately.

Done.

Nothing in the codex or the FAQ states that she gains any drug benefit from any unit of wyches other then her own retinue. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. There is really no reason to bring lelith and not give her a retinue.

gardeth wrote:Nothing in the codex or the FAQ states that she gains any drug benefit from any unit of wyches other then her own retinue.

What about the part in the FAQ that tells you that she always has drugs, and that every wych has drugs?

If original post was written just lke the codex states then as per RAW it seems clear Lelith does not gain the benefits of combat drugs without a retinue.

However, as it does seem quite obvious that she should be using combat drugs, in a friendly game i would allow option 2. Lelith gains the effects of the squad she joins. This seems most appropriate and fair for both sides.

Dashofpepper wrote:

gardeth wrote:Nothing in the codex or the FAQ states that she gains any drug benefit from any unit of wyches other then her own retinue.

What about the part in the FAQ that tells you that she always has drugs, and that every wych has drugs?

It doesn't, it says she may use the drugs or otherwise she would be the only wyche not to use them. That she uses them doesn't mean she always has them.

the problem I have with the second option is that could theoretically allow Lelith access to multiple drug effects by joining different squads of Wyches. not at the same time, mind you, but there's a 25-point piece of wargear you need to have to use multiple drug effects.
obviously such circumstances would be rare, but the more accurate way to play it whilst arguing that she still has drugs w/o a retinue would be making her choose for herself at the beginning of the game, much the way the other drugs are chosen [of course, not counting the drugs from the armoury]?

I voted for option 4 as that is my take on it. I would just as easily allow a DE player to use option 2 though as the best compromise.

No leader buys their own drugs... their minions do it.

Clearly lelith waits for her peeps to bring her the hook up.

The FAQ says that she uses the drugs her retinue has or she would simply be the only witch who doesn't use drugs.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Farseer Faenyin wrote:Voted for the one that follows best the RAW, even though it seems like a load of unfluffy crock.

IMO, she should get whatever drugs she joins...but unfortunately that wouldn't hold up against GW's amazing ability to clearify their own rules.

Guess I'm going to start playing my RJBs as STR5 T5 instead of STR4 T4 right? The Eldar Jetbike rule tells us to add +1S and +1T to jetbikes. And you shouldn't ever argue when I pin your fearless units, because RAW...the horrorfex does it. =p Maybe I should stop picking and choosing RAW to be fair and just pick the RAW camp.

Out of curiosity, can the 'nets' be used on models locked in close combat? Was something my friend brought up to me, and I was too unfamiliar to answer.

Dashofpepper wrote:
What about the part in the FAQ that tells you that she always has drugs, and that every wych has drugs?

FWIW, from my perspective that's a very hasty generalization applied to a very specific question regarding the drugs her Retinue has.

Although, I still think she should have access to them, as per choosing for herself at the start of the game. I just don't see that being supported by the rules if she isn't with a retinue...

Farseer Faenyin wrote:

Out of curiosity, can the 'nets' be used on models locked in close combat? Was something my friend brought up to me, and I was too unfamiliar to answer.

If those are the vehicle net things....I don't know what they do. never used them.

Dashofpepper wrote:
What about the part in the FAQ that tells you that she always has drugs, and that every wych has drugs?

Officially she's an Archite, not a Wych, if you want to play very serious RAW.

Do you believe Archites and Dracites get individual drug rolls? By the same arguement that works for Lelith it would apply to them as well, wouldn't it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Farseer Faenyin wrote:Out of curiosity, can the 'nets' be used on models locked in close combat? Was something my friend brought up to me, and I was too unfamiliar to answer.

The nets change the way the rules work for embarking after a vehicle has moved a certain distance.

They have zero effect on the right to embark while locked in combat.

Thor:
isn't that why they have to pay 25 points for it? I'm asking because I honestly don't know why else they wouldn't have it, if not to get the more specific version of combat drugs that lets you gain multiple effects [which could include 12" charge if that's what the retinue rolled?]

just asking for clarification...

Aww dakka ate my post...

Ok here goes again, this codex is older than retinues, back in the day troops weren't more important than any other block in the game. So it made no sense to take a Troop Wych squad over her retinue. The only reason (that I can think of) that you took more wych squads than getting her retinue is so you could have more scoring squads...well the rules have moved on (as Roland would say) so now you have to take the good (getting drugs) with the bad (losing a scoring unit).

I hope my post makes sense.

radical bob wrote:Thor:
isn't that why they have to pay 25 points for it? I'm asking because I honestly don't know why else they wouldn't have it, if not to get the more specific version of combat drugs that lets you gain multiple effects

I'm not sure entirely what you're asking me here, actually.

I'll clarify that I do not believe Lelith has drugs without a retinue (actually I hit Dash up about it long before the latest batch of people did). I was asking the Archite/Dracite question because if you believe Lelith gets drugs due to the wording of that FAQ entry then you should also believe Wych Lords get drugs because they are as much a Wych as Lelith is. I asked because if Dash doesn't think Wych Lords get drugs then that should serve as his answer for Lelith as well.

I will also state I legitimately believe most of the blame lies with GW's poor writing skills - because they're unlikely to defend themselves.

sorry - I think in a very confusing way I was saying the same thing. Wych Lords don't get Combat Drugs the ''special rule'' but can get Combat Drugs the ''wargear.'' If that makes more sense? In a way, Lelith only gets them through the "eliteness" of her Retinue, as a benefit since she cannot purchase additional wargear, the way I understand it?

sorry, I was trying to explain why I thought there was a difference between what Wyches the unit have & what anyone who has access to the armoury has...and the fact that a Wych Lord would need to buy combat drugs in order to keep up with a squad/retinue that rolled a 1 for their own ''random'' drug effect.

if it helps, just pretend I never said anything!

[edit] spelling...

Thor665 wrote:
Officially she's an Archite, not a Wych, if you want to play very serious RAW.

Do you believe Archites and Dracites get individual drug rolls? By the same arguement that works for Lelith it would apply to them as well, wouldn't it?

I think Archites/Dracites are Wyches.

I do not believe they get individual drug rolls though.

Interesting stuff here; never thought of some of it.

Just take a dang retinue like I suggested when you were cutting it down to 1750

Whole crazy RAW mess could have been avoided!

Oh and I voted that you roll seperately because I can't imagine Lelith without drugs but picking is something you pay for in the form of the squad. Not RAW in the least but it's my RAI view.

Hulksmash:
the only issue I have with that solution is that it's basically giving Lelith for free something any other Wych Lord has to pay 25 points for, and she's already at a decent point cost considering her wargear & stat increases.
I think the retinue-drugs interaction is a bonus since she cannot purchase combat drugs the way a ''normal'' Wych Lord would be required to...shouldn't that be enough?

I don't know, it's a vague situation which in my mind could really go either way...

Hulksmash wrote:Just take a dang retinue like I suggested when you were cutting it down to 1750

Whole crazy RAW mess could have been avoided!

Oh and I voted that you roll seperately because I can't imagine Lelith without drugs but picking is something you pay for in the form of the squad. Not RAW in the least but it's my RAI view.

I intend to retinue her in the future, I was just curious about this unique situation.