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As I said in another thread, I really think it's pretty cut & dried.

The only way to get Lelith a drug effect is to take a retinue. Any assertion otherwise is using a fluff justification for doing something that it outside of the rules. While it might make "sense" for Lelith to always have access to combat drugs, the rules and FAQ combined only allow it in a single, specific instance.

The original FAQ question is slightly silly. If Ms. Hesperaux has a retinue, then she's operating as an upgrade model for that unit and thus the "Of course she gets the drugs" is pretty straight forward.

If you want to rewrite her rules so that she gets to choose the drug effect of any unit that she joins, that's fine. I've got a nice one page list of things that I think should be changed in the codex to update it two editions, that works in nicely. However, by the book the ability to choose only applies to her and her retinue.

ThePhish wrote:I didn't vote, b/c I didn't see the option for what I would choose.

In the event that Lelith did not have a retinue, I would choose her Combat Drug from the chart. Any wych squad that she was attached to, I would have "rolled" for their drug as a separate squad as normal.

Personally I would choose hers before rolling the other wyches as well and treat them seperately since she could detach, or never be attached to another squad if you chose not to.

I would go with this. She picks and may join any unit she wishes after having picked. She's the leader of her retinue or lack thereof; makes sense she (not the retinue) is the deciding factor in what drugs she will ingest.

Skarboy wrote:

ThePhish wrote:I didn't vote, b/c I didn't see the option for what I would choose.

In the event that Lelith did not have a retinue, I would choose her Combat Drug from the chart. Any wych squad that she was attached to, I would have "rolled" for their drug as a separate squad as normal.

Personally I would choose hers before rolling the other wyches as well and treat them seperately since she could detach, or never be attached to another squad if you chose not to.

I would go with this. She picks and may join any unit she wishes after having picked. She's the leader of her retinue or lack thereof; makes sense she (not the retinue) is the deciding factor in what drugs she will ingest.

How does this interpretation mesh with the rules? The pertinent rules being that Lelith Hesperax does not have the wargear item "Combat Drugs." She does not have any special rules that grant her the ability to make a roll on the Combat Drugs table. She is allowed to take a retinue of Wyches. Wyches always gain a roll on the Combat Drugs chart. Lelith has a special rule that allows the player to choose the drug effect rather than roll randomly. The FAQ then clarifies that the drug effect for the retinue also affects Lelith (as someone already mentioned, this is merely a 5th ed. clarification of the fact that Lelith with a retinue acts as a squad upgrade character and would therefore be affected by the retinue unit's special rules). That's the sum total of all information pertaining to both Lelith and Combat Drugs.

There is absolutely nothing, stated or implied, that gives Lelith the permission to obtain a Combat Drug result from any other source than by taking a retinue.

Agree 100% with Radical Bob, Thor, Saldiven and Solkan.

She only gets drugs if she has a retinue; in which case she benefits from theirs.

Oh Dash, I already told you the RaW!

The Answer is Option D, RaW. Sad, but true!

Saldiven wrote:
How does this interpretation mesh with the rules? The pertinent rules being that Lelith Hesperax does not have the wargear item "Combat Drugs."

Wyches don't have the wargear combat drugs either.

There are two kinds of drugs in the DE arsenal - one is the combat drug dispenser, which costs 25 points and lets archons and archites choose multiple drugs when they want to. The other is the special rule combat drugs - which is completely different. For this one, every wych unit rolls a D6 at the start of the game and is assigned a single power for the duration of the game. There's no argument that Lelith doesn't have a combat drug dispenser.

And there's no rule that gives Lelith a roll on a combat drug chart, either.

The rules are incredibly specific in this case. I posted the pertinent rules for this case a few posts ago.

As much as I would love for Lelith to have CD, assuming that she can get them from any other place besides a retinue purchased for her is wishful thinking.

I just edited my first post at the top to reflect that we're not talking about the optional combat drugs, which is what several people here seem to think we're talking about.

technically speaking, then, by that logic she also does not have the Special Rule ''combat drugs,'' right?

that special rule is instead conferred to her through her retinue?

also, I think a Succubus [technically a Wych] could theoretically take the combat drugs wargear, right? It says they, too, may choose extra equipment from the armoury...

call the wargear drugs ''heroin'' & the special rule drugs ''weed.''
Lelith never does ''heroin.'' And she only does ''weed'' when it's supplied by her elite party friends, aka Retinue. under any other circumstances, she is sober & sad.

Yup. Lilith lacks the wargear, and lacks the special rule. She has a FAQ answer granting her the benefit of her retinue’s drugs, if she has a retinue.

A succubus does have access to the armoury, and could pay the 25pts for the wargear if they wanted to.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
How does this interpretation mesh with the rules? The pertinent rules being that Lelith Hesperax does not have the wargear item "Combat Drugs."

Wyches don't have the wargear combat drugs either.

There are two kinds of drugs in the DE arsenal - one is the combat drug dispenser, which costs 25 points and lets archons and archites choose multiple drugs when they want to. The other is the special rule combat drugs - which is completely different. For this one, every wych unit rolls a D6 at the start of the game and is assigned a single power for the duration of the game. There's no argument that Lelith doesn't have a combat drug dispenser.

Please, if you're going to quote some of my text and then attempt to re-but it, quote the entire selection and address the entire post.

You failed to quote or address the additional points that:

Lelith does not have a special rule giving her a roll on the drug chart (as to wych squads). Lelith may take a retinue of wyches, who would normally be allowed a roll on the drug chart. Lelith has a special rule that allows her to select the drug effect for her retinue as opposed to making the roll. GW later released an FAQ that allows Lelith to also use the drug effect selected for her retinue.

Once again, there are no rules at all that state or imply that Lelith can get an effect from the combat drugs chart by any other means.

She also doesn't have dodge to my knowledge.

I would go with option D honestly, in a tournament.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:She also doesn't have dodge to my knowledge.

I would go with option D honestly, in a tournament.

Wow.... she doesn't. So apparently, she's the only Wych ever that doesn't get a 4++ save in cc (After Shadowfield gets popped) and also doesn't use combat drugs or have the option to use drugs without a retinue. That's pretty stupid. Lelith is officially useless now. Sooo the only way to keep her alive is with a Retinue. They should have just made it mandatory to take a Retinue with her and save the confusion.


edited for stupidity

Well, that's what you get for having a 3rd edition codex.

Not to worry though, Dark Eldar are going to be next, with their Melta Lances and 3 Point Wyches!

Gwar! wrote:Well, that's what you get for having a 3rd edition codex.

Not to worry though, Dark Eldar are going to be next, with their Melta Lances and 3 Point Wyches!

3pts!!!! I was told 2 by a red shirt!! Or are they 3pts and now coming with melta fists and power bombs?!?

gardeth wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Well, that's what you get for having a 3rd edition codex.

Not to worry though, Dark Eldar are going to be next, with their Melta Lances and 3 Point Wyches!

3pts!!!! I was told 2 by a red shirt!! Or are they 3pts and now coming with melta fists and power bombs?!?

Yes, but not only that, they get Multilazors!

You'll never guess who was brought in to write the codex!

Saldiven wrote:How does this interpretation mesh with the rules? The pertinent rules being that Lelith Hesperax does not have the wargear item "Combat Drugs." She does not have any special rules that grant her the ability to make a roll on the Combat Drugs table. She is allowed to take a retinue of Wyches. Wyches always gain a roll on the Combat Drugs chart. Lelith has a special rule that allows the player to choose the drug effect rather than roll randomly. The FAQ then clarifies that the drug effect for the retinue also affects Lelith (as someone already mentioned, this is merely a 5th ed. clarification of the fact that Lelith with a retinue acts as a squad upgrade character and would therefore be affected by the retinue unit's special rules). That's the sum total of all information pertaining to both Lelith and Combat Drugs.

There is absolutely nothing, stated or implied, that gives Lelith the permission to obtain a Combat Drug result from any other source than by taking a retinue.

Upon actually having a chance to grab my DE codex and read Lelith, Wych, and Wych Lord entries, and GW FAQ, I would be inclined to agree with Saldiven & Co, at least as far as RAW go. The combat drugs are mentioned SPECIFICALLY within the context of the retinue and nowhere else. There's nowhere where it states that "Lelith is a wych and possesses all abilities of a wych" (nor do archite/drachites for that matter), so the Combat Drugs special ability doesn't apply. It doesn't make sense, fluff-wise, but that would appear to be the strict RAW reading. Lame. You can't even give her a Combat Drug Dispenser either. Double lame.

So a score of 0 isn't a score?
So a retinue of none isn't one?

ChrisCP wrote:So a score of 0 isn't a score?
So a retinue of none isn't one?

A retinue consisting of zero models is exactly the same as no retinue, yes.

Skarboy wrote:

Saldiven wrote:How does this interpretation mesh with the rules? The pertinent rules being that Lelith Hesperax does not have the wargear item "Combat Drugs." She does not have any special rules that grant her the ability to make a roll on the Combat Drugs table. She is allowed to take a retinue of Wyches. Wyches always gain a roll on the Combat Drugs chart. Lelith has a special rule that allows the player to choose the drug effect rather than roll randomly. The FAQ then clarifies that the drug effect for the retinue also affects Lelith (as someone already mentioned, this is merely a 5th ed. clarification of the fact that Lelith with a retinue acts as a squad upgrade character and would therefore be affected by the retinue unit's special rules). That's the sum total of all information pertaining to both Lelith and Combat Drugs.

There is absolutely nothing, stated or implied, that gives Lelith the permission to obtain a Combat Drug result from any other source than by taking a retinue.

Upon actually having a chance to grab my DE codex and read Lelith, Wych, and Wych Lord entries, and GW FAQ, I would be inclined to agree with Saldiven & Co, at least as far as RAW go. The combat drugs are mentioned SPECIFICALLY within the context of the retinue and nowhere else. There's nowhere where it states that "Lelith is a wych and possesses all abilities of a wych" (nor do archite/drachites for that matter), so the Combat Drugs special ability doesn't apply. It doesn't make sense, fluff-wise, but that would appear to be the strict RAW reading. Lame. You can't even give her a Combat Drug Dispenser either. Double lame.

I'll be taking Lelith with a retinue in the future; I hadn't considered this possibility arising, but be warned! My Reaver Jet Bikes are now STR5 and T5. =)

Dashofpepper wrote:...but be warned! My Reaver Jet Bikes are now STR5 and T5. =)

Can you elaborate on this? I've seen a couple of references to it flying about but I'm not familiar with the specifics.

Tantras wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:...but be warned! My Reaver Jet Bikes are now STR5 and T5. =)

Can you elaborate on this? I've seen a couple of references to it flying about but I'm not familiar with the specifics.

Something along the lines of:

Doesn't specify DE jetbikes get bonuses from jetbikes.

They have S4 T4 without those bonuses.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:So a score of 0 isn't a score?
So a retinue of none isn't one?

A retinue consisting of zero models is exactly the same as no retinue, yes.

Not quite really, it's a retinue of zero. No retinue would be where there isn't the possibility of one.
Eg
"What was the local sporting team's score last weekend?"
"Oh they didn't score at all, 0 really."

***

"Hey the local sporting team's score last weekend?"
"They didn't score they had a bye."

Does a retinue of zero allow Lelith to buy a Raider?

This seems a very narrow semantics point that isn't really relevant to the question in my opinion.

If you're going to get into a RAW fight about Reaver jetbikes, please note that the Errata says 'A Dark Eldar character on a Reaver Jetbike ... ".

So the Sybarite is S5 T5, but the rest of the squad just completely ignores the entire paragraph since it's talking about characters.

I don't agree with any of the choices, the RAW (if you can even call it that when the FAQ is involved) is pretty clear that she simply misses out unless she has a retinue, however, I think the explanatory sentence in the FAQ which indicates the decision to let her get the drugs was done to match with the fluff, wherein there is no way whatsoever she would go to battle without combat drugs, indicates clear RAI that this rule which applies to her retinue should also apply to her, and would extend that interpretation to "she should be able to benefit from this rule even when not with a retinue".

That being said, the rule is clearly labelled as being for a retinue, and the FAQ extends the rule to Lelith herself, but there's no reason IMO to further extend it to any squad she is with, not only because there's no support for it within the rules or supporting documents, but because it's game breakingly troublesome.

Sure if you use a normal wych unit as though it was a retinue, with Lelith attached all game, you won't have issues. But what about when Lelith detaches from them, do they keep the chosen drugs, not to mention the dilemma of what exactly constitutes "the start of the battle", and how it relates to deployment, since, you can infer the battle starts at the "start the game" step which occurs after deployment, but I don't think it's ever clearly said to be such.

So basically, if for some reason you were fielding Lelith without a retinue, she could still pick her drugs, but any wyches she was attached to would roll as normal.

ChrisCP wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:So a score of 0 isn't a score?
So a retinue of none isn't one?

A retinue consisting of zero models is exactly the same as no retinue, yes.

Not quite really, it's a retinue of zero. No retinue would be where there isn't the possibility of one.

If this was true, she wouldn't be allowed to join another unit, as she wouldn't be an IC - she'd still be attached to her retinue of 0.

I'd be okay with that.

Exactly. A retinue of 0 members clearly = no retinue. This is made obvious in the section of the rulebook which talks about how once an Independent Character's retinue is killed, they are free to join another unit, as they revert to being a regular IC.

Ah, but that happens only if the retinue is killed. If you have a retinue of 0, how can they be killed (and thus the IC becomes an IC again)?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ah, but that happens only if the retinue is killed. If you have a retinue of 0, how can they be killed (and thus the IC becomes an IC again)?