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Im going to get alot of grief.
I think there are lot of things britain does that would work well over here. First i think we should adopt some election ploicies. Like set campaign funds from the govt. Also not television ads.
Also i think we should follow there example in prisons. Focus more on rehab then punishment.
Anything else you brits have to offer?

Punishment IS a form of rehab.

with 70% recidivism rate i think we are kinda failling in the cataagory. also studie show the longer they are in there the higher chance they will comeback.

garret wrote: also studie show the longer they are in there the higher chance they will comeback.

Not unless we keep them in there FOREVER!

I won't ask about the election policies, based on that I don't really care about how the British do it. I like our system, it gives me a wonderful nihilistic and optimistic feeling at the same time when I think about it.

Regarding the prisons though, why do you think we should work on rehab rather than punishment?

Rehab has showned to be more cost effective. Also the main thing is recidivism rate. if we can get the inmate a job he wont resort back to crime.
Besides prisons are way over crowded to continue on the current system.

garret wrote:With a 70% recidivism rate, I think we are kinda failing in the category. It's also been shown in studies that the longer offenders are in prison the higher chance they will commit a crime again.

I tidied that up for you so that it's not just "they dun bad, and they keep dunnin' bad!".

But, anyways, your 70% recidivism rate isn't just because they were in prison or the corrections system to begin with. There's a lot of things to consider when talking about recidivism among offenders, and it's not all "they went to prison for a long time, and then they commit another crime when they get out!".

Offenders who are in for a long time? They tend towards being people like murderers or rapists. Y'know...capital crimes. They're also generally not coming back out, or if they're out on parole...they go and commit the same crimes again because it's the easiest way for them to get what they want.

While some people might disagree with my stance, in general the vast majority of offenders in prison belong there.

They're career criminals, and no amount of rehabilitation will change them. The fact that they get let out into the community at large with the halfassed monitoring systems we have in place is the problem.

People with jobs commit crimes too. Get someone who actually wants to change a job, and he'll blow you away with his hard work. Get someone who only wants a way out of jail faster will blow you away and take a run. It all depends on the person.

I don't have any suggestions for overcrowding aside from factory work and living centers or putting them in an arena to fight for a pardon for the last living man. Gladiator style.

People want to change. Career criminil may only do it because it is there only way. We need to help people not just give them time then out they go. In some parole systems they have to send you back to the town you commited the crime. If that not a bad idea? i think so.

I saw this documentary of this american prisoner (black guy) and it showed how as an unskilled person with a criminal record for car jacking, he couldn't find a job and had to live at his sisters house.

Now if I had been him, crime would have been tempting, because he was essentially unemployable. Thats where your 70% come from. Theres always plenty of unskilled workers without criminal records so how are xcons suppose to get a job and be productive again?

Rehab won't do to much unless these guys can get regular jobs. And who would want to employ them.. not me.

Yes because the serial rapist would totally like to refrain from his work. You are assuming that every criminal only does it because of their negative circumstances. There are some people who you just cannot rehabilitate. If someone randomly has the urge to go kill 10 or 20 people, it's going to take more than a counseling session or parole system to rehabilitate them.
Greetsz,
Mr. Self Destruct

garret wrote:People want to change.

Not really. People are scared of change.

Career criminals may commit crimes because it is their only way.

Not really. Look at most serial killers. They're completely normal people with nothing but a mental disorder--or even sometimes, no disorders involved just a lack of conscience or empathy or any number of the emotions that keep us from murdering each other in the streets.

We need to help people not just give them time then out they go.

That's not how it really works, mate.

In some parole systems they have to send you back to the town you where you committed the crime. Is that not a bad idea? I think so.

Not really sure what you're saying here. I think you're confusing that you're generally going to be tried where you committed the crime(due to jurisdiction) with parole.

Mr. Self Destruct wrote:Yes because the serial rapist would totally like to refrain from his work. You are assuming that every criminal only does it because of their negative circumstances. There are some people who you just cannot rehabilitate. If someone randomly has the urge to go kill 10 or 20 people, it's going to take more than a counseling session or parole system to rehabilitate them.
Greetsz,
Mr. Self Destruct

That is true. muderers and rapist and along with other very serious crime would most likely unrehabilitable.
But that is a small precent. Im talking about small to medium crimes. You should watch ted koppels video on california prison system. Same with drug users. they get little to no help in prison.

garret wrote:Im going to get alot of grief.
I think there are lot of things britain does that would work well over here. First i think we should adopt some election ploicies. Like set campaign funds from the govt. Also not television ads.
Also i think we should follow there example in prisons. Focus more on rehab then punishment.
Anything else you brits have to offer?

Grass is always greener.....

Sure we get some things right but others wrong.

The UK gets it right by:

Having a separate titular and administrative head of state.
Not having a politicised top level judiciary.
Having no unflexible Constitution but a custom in Common Law.
Having a non privatised National Bank.
Having the NHS.
Getting the speed limit right.

The US gets it right by:

Not pissing on citizens who fail to adhere to political correctness.
Supporting initiative development and industry.
Respecting civic rights issues doggedly.
Not canceling or playing cheap with technological projects.

Thing is, the US puts more people in prison per capita than anywhere else in the world. These people are frequently placed in prisons that are run on a profit incentive, there's no incentive in the prison to prevent further offences (they'd be spending money to reduce their future customer base). Ultimately, the US could look to a lot of places around the world to find better systems.

On elections, I think there's certainly a strong argument to get the money out of US politics. It makes corruption so much more likely, and places a bar on the amount of funding you need to be a candidate - ultimately it doesn't matter how talented and potentially popular you might be, you need so many dollars to run for office.

That said, there's a lot to like about US politics. There are real efforts to engage communities, to grow voter enthusiasm. I don't think the system in the UK is something you need to look towards, they've got all kinds of problems of their own.

Not everyone wants to change, as Kanulen noted. And it being the only way for them is sketchy at best. The mass murderer isn't exactly someone who does it because they have no choice in the matter, from our viewpoint. They might believe they have instructions from a higher, or lower power, but that does not excuse them from breaking the law. In this case, they still need to be punished, but their mental conditioning to obey this power needs to be broken.

Typically,the people who want to change are the ones who commit smaller crimes. This is because they have a set pattern. They have shorter sentences, but they should have some form to help them improve their lot in life. They commit smaller crimes because of their situation, and are trying to stay afloat through illegal means.

If you murder your boss for firing you, no, you do not need rehabilitation. Odds are, if you felt sorry for it afterwards, you're not going to do it again. And if you didn't feel sorry for it (Again, sketchy. Depends on reasoning), you should be in jail anyways, and might end up in there again, even if you are given a job.

People who want help, who need help, will actively seek it when offered most of the time. Those who don't want it, won't. It doesn't matter where your focus is. Ensure they can reform if they want, take some time off for trying to better themselves. If they want to slum it out for their time, fine.

Sending you back to the town you committed the crime isn't as bad as it sounds. Because the newspapers, and every gossip in town is going to let everyone know what you were convicted for. You will become a social pariah, and most times people will watch out for those you harmed in the first place. And people will take a bat at you if you seem to be committing the crime again (Child snatcher around kids will probably get beaned four of five times). All in all, they'll probably move very quickly unless they can get away with it. Bigger cities, bigger problem of handling it, but that's what guns are for, 'ja? And those tazer doo-hickey's.

ORRR we could send them to mars to start a new world.
That would take care of housing
As well as long term care.
Plus a major influx of jobs to set everything in place to send them there.

Shaman wrote:I saw this documentary of this american prisoner (black guy) and it showed how as an unskilled person with a criminal record for car jacking, he couldn't find a job and had to live at his sisters house.

Now if I had been him, crime would have been tempting, because he was essentially unemployable. Thats where your 70% come from. Theres always plenty of unskilled workers without criminal records so how are xcons suppose to get a job and be productive again?

Rehab won't do to much unless these guys can get regular jobs. And who would want to employ them.. not me.

There are programs they can enter after release where they work for government agencies, there are companies that specialise in taking on ex-cons after release. When a guy is given an employable skill for the first time in his life, and gets one chance to make good, you'd be surprised how often they work harder than anyone else.

Shaman wrote:I saw this documentary of this American prisoner (black guy) and it showed how as an unskilled person with a criminal record for car jacking, he couldn't find a job and had to live at his sisters house.

Now if I had been him, crime would have been tempting, because he was essentially unemployable. That's where your 70% come from. There's always plenty of unskilled workers without criminal records so how are ex-cons supposed to get a job and be productive again?

Rehab won't do to much unless these guys can get regular jobs. And who would want to employ them.. not me.

This part is kind of a catch-22.

A lot of the people who commit crimes have no real skills that would have gotten them a decent paying job in the first place. It's partially what leads them to commit the crimes to begin with.

But where this really comes into play, is when they are released from prison with a college education(provided for free by the state)--they're not going to be considered for the jobs that they would have wanted due to the fact that they've got a prison term on their record that makes employers very leery of hiring them.

Britain is looking to copy Australia's voting method. So America copying the UK would be odd.

Drugs seem to be a big problem for why people are going to prison (somewhere above 80% in Oz)

How about if you get busted with a certain amount you have your non dominant hand chopped off, and can no longer access welfare for the rest of your life.
That should sharpen the mind somewhat.

Kanluwen wrote:

Shaman wrote:I saw this documentary of this American prisoner (black guy) and it showed how as an unskilled person with a criminal record for car jacking, he couldn't find a job and had to live at his sisters house.

Now if I had been him, crime would have been tempting, because he was essentially unemployable. That's where your 70% come from. There's always plenty of unskilled workers without criminal records so how are ex-cons supposed to get a job and be productive again?

Rehab won't do to much unless these guys can get regular jobs. And who would want to employ them.. not me.

This part is kind of a catch-22.

A lot of the people who commit crimes have no real skills that would have gotten them a decent paying job in the first place. It's partially what leads them to commit the crimes to begin with.

But where this really comes into play, is when they are released from prison with a college education(provided for free by the state)--they're not going to be considered for the jobs that they would have wanted due to the fact that they've got a prison term on their record that makes employers very leery of hiring them.

What is nice, however, is that there are several places run by ex-cons for newly released inmates to try and get a job. I do recall a hot dog shop on that very premise. All the workers are from jail, and are just trying to get on with their lives. There's not a whole lot of them though. Hot dogs ain't much, but it's a paycheck, and a start with a good reference.

Like Sebster said, there's companies and programs that are exclusively for ex-cons but the problem is that some upon their release set their goals way too high.

When they fail those goals, they resort back to what they know works.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Britain is looking to copy Australia's voting method. So America copying the UK would be odd.

Drugs seem to be a big problem for why people are going to prison (somewhere above 80% in Oz)

How about if you get busted with a certain amount you have your non dominant hand chopped off, and can no longer access welfare for the rest of your life.
That should sharpen the mind somewhat.

That should increase the crime rate somewhat.

Kanluwen wrote:Like Sebster said, there's companies and programs that are exclusively for ex-cons but the problem is that some upon their release set their goals way too high.

When they fail those goals, they resort back to what they know works.

One must wonder if that's similar to touching the hot handle, then decided to grab it again. Nature's way of saying "Keep this one out of the gene pool." Then again, I suppose it's a good thing that there are laws that handle repeat offenders.

Orlanth wrote:

garret wrote:Im going to get alot of grief.
I think there are lot of things britain does that would work well over here. First i think we should adopt some election ploicies. Like set campaign funds from the govt. Also not television ads.
Also i think we should follow there example in prisons. Focus more on rehab then punishment.
Anything else you brits have to offer?

Grass is always greener.....

Sure we get some things right but others wrong.

The UK gets it right by:

Having a separate titular and administrative head of state.
Not having a politicised top level judiciary.
Having no unflexible Constitution but a custom in Common Law.
Having a non privatised National Bank.
Having the NHS.
Getting the speed limit right.

Agreed on pretty much all counts and doubly agreed on the two bolded ones.

Orlanth wrote:The US gets it right by:

Not pissing on citizens who fail to adhere to political correctness.

And having a education bar set so low that most don't even know what political correctness means or is and therefore, don't even know that they're not adhering to it.

Orlanth wrote:Supporting initiative development and industry.
Respecting civic rights issues doggedly.

Agreed here.

Orlanth wrote:Not canceling or playing cheap with technological projects.

Cept those levies. Those really came back to bite us. And all those "Bridges to Nowhere". And using alternate forms of energy en masse (like ocean current power and solar cells). And anything we cancel because of religious fervor.

Shaman wrote:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Britain is looking to copy Australia's voting method. So America copying the UK would be odd.

Drugs seem to be a big problem for why people are going to prison (somewhere above 80% in Oz)

How about if you get busted with a certain amount you have your non dominant hand chopped off, and can no longer access welfare for the rest of your life.
That should sharpen the mind somewhat.

That should increase the crime rate somewhat.

It is somewhat harder to commit crimes with 1 hand.


Unless you are trying to kill a famous surgeons wife and then frame him.

Or you are a pirate.

Its way harder to work with one hand.

ip vin snarller dehizvin wrote:
ORRR we could send them to mars to start a new world.
That would take care of housing
As well as long term care.
Plus a major influx of jobs to set everything in place to send them there.

Too true, It wouldn't even be that hard to do it.

Give them some plants and soil, boom, you have oxygen and food.

If you really wanted to, get some Martian soil, figure out what its rich in, and genetically alter some vegetables to run on the stuff. Throw some domes up there with plants in them, wait a few months, open them, start all over, rinse repeat. It is a semi-plausible way of putting air on the planet, at least.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Where does Australia send its prisoners? Convicts from a penal colony...they have to make Charlie Manson look like a saint! Do they go to Liechtenstein? Is that why Fraz is being all Johnny Raincloud?

JEB_Stuart wrote:Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Where does Australia send its prisoners? Convicts from a penal colony...they have to make Charlie Manson look like a saint! Do they go to Liechtenstein? Is that why Fraz is being all Johnny Raincloud?

Similar to what Canadia does with it's convicts. Works them to death in the Syrup Mines.

Only in the Down Under, it's Kangaroo mines.