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Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

NationMaster.com aggregates information from a variety of sources including the CIA World Factbook and the UN Crime Survey...

The assertion that per capita violent crime in the UK is 10 times that of the US would appear to be incorrect. Obviously this table does not cover all forms of violent crime, perhaps there is some category in which the British are so resolutely criminal that it overbalances all the other statistics.

(http://www.nationmaster.com/index.php)


Murders
United States: 0.042802 per 1,000
United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000
US is 300% higher

Assaults
United States: 7.56923 per 1,000
United Kingdom: 7.45959 per 1,000
US is 1.5% higher

Rapes
United States: 0.301318 per 1,000
United Kingdom: 0.142172 per 1,000
US is 212% higher

Robberies
United Kingdom: 1.57433 per 1,000
United States: 1.38527 per 1,000
UK is 14% higher

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





UK

Those stats seem about right to me just because of common sense, ie we have lots of assualts because i see one nearly every night out!

My girlfriend told me she personally knows 3 or 4 people that have been raped, and i didnt believe her because she has always seemed very down on her own country to me, and i hate that attitude. But im sure that sex related crimes over there are way more common, and i have absolutely no idea why.

I know i blame everything on religion, but do you think maybe its because they teach that feeling "lusty" is a bad thing, even though it is a normal human emotion, so people try and repress their natural sexual urges and it sends them a bit nuts?

We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

No, in most cases rape is to do with power and domination, not frustrated sexual urges.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





UK

Well then i have no idea.. i have alot of conervsations with my missus where we try and figure out possible reasons for why something is the way that it is.

And Japan has low rates of rape right?

I always thought maybe cos they got all their frustrations out via the bizarre mangas and such or go to the pervy clubs with the knicker vendors and such.. rather than in the real world.

Its fascinating to me that two nations that are so alike US/UK can have such varying crime levels.. we all teach kids the same stuff, so why the big increases?

Easy access to firearms explains the higher murder rate, you know, like you hear about a guy going nuts cos they asked him to put his safety goggles on, then he shoots 8 people, and kills himself afterwards. I think that is simply explained, in that when you get the red mist, if you actually have a firearm on you, then you will use it, even if you regret it 20 seconds later.

But im at a loss with regards to the higher rape statistics.

We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Japan has low rates of reported rape.

Obviously we don't know if there are large numbers of unreported rapes. Since Japan is low on the UN index of equal rights for women (whatever the official name is) there might be a lot of unreported rapes.

There is certainly an awful lot of molesting of women on the trains.

Japan has a thriving porn and sex industry so there is no reason for sexual frustration.

About 2/3rds of murders in the USA are done with guns, which implies that if guns were banned the murder rate might drop to UK levels.

I don't think it's that simple, though. It might go up because obviously criminals would still carry guns. OTOH UK criminals have easy access to guns, but don't commit a lot of murders.

Of course most murders are committed by close relations and friends.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in au
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter






Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)

Kilkrazy wrote:
Of course most murders are committed by close relations and friends.


You do realise how funny this sentence sounds, right?

Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.

"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers"
 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Ironic, isn't it?

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in au
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter






Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)

Yes, that won the 'Irony' cup, but this one was awarded the 'Go Figure' platinium award.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Japan has a thriving porn and sex industry...


Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.

"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers"
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Manchester UK

Some troll wrote:You don't think America is the greatest nation since the Roman Empire? We have the strongest military in the world, and that is what counts. . It has taken the ancient UK forever just to become what they are now, below young America. As for the British, they outlawed an American radio talk show host from their nation, putting him on a list with terrorists that were forbidden to enter Britain. Shows their commitment to free speech. PS- He was a conservative radio host, not an islamic extremist.


This is so hilariously full of fail, I had to mention it. You obviously don't have even a rudimentary knowledge of history.

Plus, look at how much we have done in the past couple hundred years

You mean the last hundred years at most. Before that the USA was pretty much a backwater, certainly not a major player in world affairs. No offence intended.

It has taken the ancient UK forever just to become what they are now, below young America.

Did you miss the bit in the history book where The British Empire effectively owned or directly controlled large areas of North America, the Indian subcontinent, Africa, The Carribean islands, the Antipodes, Pacific Islands, China (arguably)and parts of South America and South-East Asia? Or are you assuming that our current (admittedly diminished) position was the ultimate goal? You fething div.


 Cheesecat wrote:
 purplefood wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Albatross far too often these days...

I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Okay, so the male version of "Cougar" is now officially "Albatross".
 
   
Made in us
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon





Kalamazoo

Kilkrazy wrote:NationMaster.com aggregates information from a variety of sources including the CIA World Factbook and the UN Crime Survey...

The assertion that per capita violent crime in the UK is 10 times that of the US would appear to be incorrect. Obviously this table does not cover all forms of violent crime, perhaps there is some category in which the British are so resolutely criminal that it overbalances all the other statistics.

(http://www.nationmaster.com/index.php)



Their data is from 1999 to 2000 for homicide rates. Since '99 US rates have been falling, while the UK has been climbing.
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

I can see how it would look like that, if you accept the statistic that UK violent crime is 10 times higher than US.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

mattyrm wrote:As i said, dont take this the wrong way, my missus is American, ive lived there for about 2 years all in.....


mattyrm wrote:
My girlfriend told me she personally knows 3 or 4 people that have been raped, and i didnt believe her because she has always seemed very down on her own country to me, and i hate that attitude.


Hope they don't read Dakka Matt.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




All over the U.S.

It is not where the Penal system is, it is where it is headed. Also, the lack of knowledge in this thread concerning how the US deals with its current inmates and ex-cons is truly sad.

Since 1980, the states and federal government have been engaged in a steady assault on the rights of the individual through a quote"War on Crime" were each legislative session has removed obstacles to conviction. It is a tribute to how well Bill of Rights was written that there is still a jury process. Unfortunately, the Jury process doesn't do much good when the government has an almost inexhaustable fund to prosecute is compared to the individual who has to pay for their defense out of pocket. Compound this with an increasingly judgemental populace(Schadenfreude) and you will find that most of what people believe will protect them against malicious prosecution is simply just that, a belief nothing more.

Now take the the increasing number of people that we throw into prison (BTW,Streaking is a registerable sex offense in Texas) and make those prison's privatized.
For profit prisons, think about the implications. Where does the profit come from? Some of it comes from cutting corners on food and health care(possibly creating giant sources for pan-demic outbreaks), but a sizable portion comes from prison labour. These inmates are promised time off for good behavior for participating in the labour programs, but the time doesn't equate to the labour and the good behavior time can be taken away for a variety of minor reasons.
HHHmmm, A group of people with no right to vote, defend themselves, or to a fair pay rate. What would you call people like that?


Then look at these prisoners after release. Most Insurance companies will not cover them for two years after their release, so getting a car to go back and forth to work becomes a near impossibilty. Most apartment buildings won't rent to them so they become homeless. See where this is going?

Now, think about where a system is headed when it is becoming increasingly privatized and is one of the fastest growing sectors of the economy. Where does that put us in 10 years? In 20 years?

Editted for clarity

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/02 08:15:25


Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09

If they are too stupid to live, why make them?

In the immortal words of Socrates, I drank what??!

Tau-*****points(You really don't want to know)  
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





UK

Orlanth, in the marines we call our girlfriends 'the missus' regardless of matrimony, but they are one and the same. There aint that many americans in Middlesbrough. :-)

We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





Then look at these prisoners after release.


I agree with some of what you say, disagree with some as well, but this part is most important. There really aren't great options for released felons, particularly sex offenders.

Some sex offenders need no protection at all, and probably should have been executed.. But a lot of them are getting that flag for much, much more minor stuff. There's just no precision or wisdom it on. One category, no levels. You're an 18 year old kid, getting with a 15 year old girl, your life is ruined. Is that really so bad? Should you be in the same category as a guy who forcibly raped a 6 year old? I don't think so.

What I DON'T agree on is the idea that people in American prisons are innocent. It certainly happens, but I'd think the vast VAST majority of inmates are guilty of whatever they're in for, and then more that was never caught. I don't think our legal system has a problem with false convictions, if anything it's still too lenient. This is certainly the case for the severest crimes, but for lesser stuff, then it might be a bit quick to convict.

The impression I get is that you have to have MAJOR proof to get somebody on murder, but relatively little to get them on crack sales, and for some stupid reason the two crimes end up with similar jail sentences.

So, in any case, I agree that our entire legal system is in need of a major overhaul, but I don't think it's as universally stacked against the criminal as you seem to. I think it's more "all over the place" treating the criminal like a prince one second, then flagrantly ignoring his rights the next. It's just inconsistant and has no feeling of a uniform morality.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/30 01:34:32




=====Begin Dakka Geek Code=====
DA:70+S++G+++M+++B++I++Pw40k00#+D++A++++/wWD250T(T)DM++
======End Dakka Geek Code======

http://jackhammer40k.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




All over the U.S.

Phryxis wrote:
Some sex offenders need no protection at all, and probably should have been executed.. But a lot of them are getting that flag for much, much more minor stuff. There's just no precision or wisdom it on. One category, no levels. You're an 18 year old kid, getting with a 15 year old girl, your life is ruined. Is that really so bad? Should you be in the same category as a guy who forcibly raped a 6 year old? I don't think so.


You make a some valid points here but I'd like to also mention that the "Molester" accusation became the modern day "Witch"hunt when the laws and MEDIA attention were cranked up on these type of charges in the 1990's. It was eventually found that almost 80 % of the accusations, and that later a disproportionate number of the convictions, were proved to be false. It has to do with how the laws were set-up and that often these cases come down to the question of character where if the accuser is underage, then said accuser's character can not be questioned.

It seems that law enforcement uses media coverage on these cases as more of a defacto fund-raiser and tool for regaining public support than they for achieving justice.

Phryxis wrote:
What I DON'T agree on is the idea that people in American prisons are innocent. It certainly happens, but I'd think the vast VAST majority of inmates are guilty of whatever they're in for, and then more that was never caught. I don't think our legal system has a problem with false convictions, if anything it's still too lenient. This is certainly the case for the severest crimes, but for lesser stuff, then it might be a bit quick to convict.


Recent events prove that there are more innocent people in prison than we as a nation should be comfortable with. A notable example would be the Houston crime lab. A facility operated off of public funds that is supposed to be impartial but due to constant contact and eventual friendship with those in Law Enforcement, many of their employees began to help the police "find" evidence against the primary suspects. Recent DNA tests and evidence analysis by outside facilties are showing a disturbing number of skewed test results by the Houston lab. These skewed results helped the DA to achieve convictions that other-wise would have been unobtainable.

It is not just the Houston crime lab that this is a problem, but rather seems systemic as more cases receive outside review. What I find even more troubling is that those whom have been fasely convicted have to go through a process that is ludicrously long in order to get their recoed expunged and even after it is cleared the paperwork of having been convicted still follows them for the rest of their lives. The process for releasing and clearing these individuals names should take less time than it does to convict them.

Phryxis wrote:
The impression I get is that you have to have MAJOR proof to get somebody on murder, but relatively little to get them on crack sales, and for some stupid reason the two crimes end up with similar jail sentences.


Not necessarily true. We have a system that rewards convictions with political success and increased funding but nothing to reward acquittals. This immediately throws the system out of balance as to the level of commitment and the amount of resources availble that the attorneys on each side have. Their are murder cases where the public defenders never read through the full case file but rather immediately start working for a plea deal.

Phryxis wrote:
So, in any case, I agree that our entire legal system is in need of a major overhaul, but I don't think it's as universally stacked against the criminal as you seem to. I think it's more "all over the place" treating the criminal like a prince one second, then flagrantly ignoring his rights the next. It's just inconsistant and has no feeling of a uniform morality.


Note that in your sentence you said "I don't think it's as universally stacked against the criminal". Your use of the word criminal denotes an existing prejudice against those appearing in the courtroom as defendants. Then you go on to say," treating the criminal like a prince one second, then flagrantly ignoring his rights the next". Try substituting the word "individual" in place of the word "Criminal" and you might start seeing why false covictions are more of a problem than many think.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/06/02 08:04:01


Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09

If they are too stupid to live, why make them?

In the immortal words of Socrates, I drank what??!

Tau-*****points(You really don't want to know)  
   
Made in gb
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter







Gun laws.

Pow! thread ruined. Shame.

   
Made in us
Hauptmann




Diligently behind a rifle...

Why would we emulate a country (and continent) we wanted to get away from?

The Parliamentary system has it positives, but a past parliament produced Hitler. The NSDAP only won 32% of the German vote in 1932, but it was enough to completely derail any semblance of sanity in Germany.

The UK (which I like) unfortunately is a terrible model for "successful" government.

Catachan LIX "Lords Of Destruction" - Put Away

1943-1944 Era 1250 point Großdeutchland Force - Bolt Action

"The best medicine for Wraithlords? Multilasers. The best way to kill an Avatar? Lasguns."

"Time to pour out some liquor for the pinkmisted Harlequins"

Res Ipsa Loquitor 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

We can't emulate the UK.

1. Our food doesn't suck that bad.
2. Our car body designs aren't that good (Ancient Budha say Jaguar is proof of the existence of God).

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter







Frazzled wrote:We can't emulate the UK.

1. Our food doesn't suck that bad.
2. Our car body designs aren't that good (Ancient Budha say Jaguar is proof of the existence of God).


Watch how he strikes with one hand, and offers gifts with the other.

   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

You betcha!

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Manchester UK

Stormrider wrote:Why would we emulate a country (and continent) we wanted to get away from?

The Parliamentary system has it positives, but a past parliament produced Hitler. The NSDAP only won 32% of the German vote in 1932, but it was enough to completely derail any semblance of sanity in Germany.

The UK (which I like) unfortunately is a terrible model for "successful" government.


"Don't emulate the UK - you'll end up like Germany in the '30s!"

Erm...OK?

 Cheesecat wrote:
 purplefood wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Albatross far too often these days...

I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Okay, so the male version of "Cougar" is now officially "Albatross".
 
   
Made in us
Hauptmann




Diligently behind a rifle...

Albatross wrote:
Stormrider wrote:Why would we emulate a country (and continent) we wanted to get away from?

The Parliamentary system has it positives, but a past parliament produced Hitler. The NSDAP only won 32% of the German vote in 1932, but it was enough to completely derail any semblance of sanity in Germany.

The UK (which I like) unfortunately is a terrible model for "successful" government.


"Don't emulate the UK - you'll end up like Germany in the '30s!"

Erm...OK?


Bit of loss in translation there. The UK isn't headed for political facism anytime soon. Religous facism? Maybe, but not political.

I am saying a Unicameral "House" is a dangerous thing. A fringe group that has only moderate support in a few areas can completely run the country off the cliff.

Although our current bastardization of our original system is really worse in the end.

Catachan LIX "Lords Of Destruction" - Put Away

1943-1944 Era 1250 point Großdeutchland Force - Bolt Action

"The best medicine for Wraithlords? Multilasers. The best way to kill an Avatar? Lasguns."

"Time to pour out some liquor for the pinkmisted Harlequins"

Res Ipsa Loquitor 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

Kanluwen wrote:no disorders involved just a lack of conscience or empathy or any number of the emotions that keep us from murdering each other in the streets.


Actually, Kan, that's the very definition of a certain mental disorder: Sociopathy, also known as Antisocial personality disorder.

Clinical sociopaths lack the ability to empathize with others(along with other signs and symptoms, such as chronic lying and an inability to tolerate boredom). Some who are diagnosed can use their chronic lies and a knowledge of what the social mores(aka, what is expected of them in society and relationships) of their respective society are to cover their sociopathy, whilst others can't and either end up in mental institutions or prison.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Stormrider wrote:Bit of loss in translation there. The UK isn't headed for political facism anytime soon. Religous facism? Maybe, but not political.

I am saying a Unicameral "House" is a dangerous thing. A fringe group that has only moderate support in a few areas can completely run the country off the cliff.

Although our current bastardization of our original system is really worse in the end.


Umm, there are a range of differences between the Westminster and Weimar systems of government.

In addition to the economic and social causes of the rise of Nazism, institutional weaknesses in the Weimar Republic did contribute to the rise of Nazism. The President was given wide ranging powers in a state of emergency, and there was no oversight on when he could call such a state. Proportional representation allowed minority parties significant power in their government.

None of which exist in the UK system. Your point is very silly.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





BlutEisenRegel wrote:Punishment sets an example to the rest of people to not commit crimes. If a guillotine was waiting for you as soon as you were convicted of a crime, you would think twice. UP the punishment. Rehab does nothing. The criminal is just like, "Hell yeah, I don't have to do anything or get punished, I just get to tell my feelings and then go home scot free."


That's garbage. First up, increased punishment has not shown any correlation with crime rates. High rates of conviction do.

Second up, there's a difference between a sensible punishment tied to a rehabilitation program that will allow a person to play a useful part in society after prison, and no punishment at all. You know the difference, you know that no-one suggested no punishment, but you pretended otherwise to make a cheap point. That's really crap form.


@mattyrm

You don't think America is the greatest nation since the Roman Empire? We have the strongest military in the world, and that is what counts. Plus, look at how much we have done in the past couple hundred years. It has taken the ancient UK forever just to become what they are now, below young America. As for the British, they outlawed an American radio talk show host from their nation, putting him on a list with terrorists that were forbidden to enter Britain. Shows their commitment to free speech. PS- He was a conservative radio host, not an islamic extremist.


By this logic China is the second best nation on Earth. I‘ve been there, life there is much harder than it is for citizens of Western nations.

It is therefore quite reasonable to conclude your measure of national success is bunk.



Your post was terrible, and you need to do better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Durandal wrote:British murder rates run about 4x the US rates.


Your factual claim was, as several posters established, very wrong. The conclusions you drew from it were completely wrongheaded.

You need to own up to your mistake. I really think the culture on OT isn't going to improve until we get some measure of intellectual honesty on this board, and that means owning up to incorrect statements.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/06/02 08:04:25


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

I can start knocking heads, that might help.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair





In your base, ignoring your logic.

Dogma you don't knock heads, you make them asplode.
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





dogma wrote:I can start knocking heads, that might help.


I think a lot of OT's problems would be solved if we gave you a gun that could shoot through the internet.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
 
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