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...because it takes up nealy a third of my White Dwarf every time I buy one, despite no one I know of playing it. I think GW should just focus on 40k and WHFB and stop hawking Aragorn at me. The first novel I ever read was LOTR, so the story, characters and setting have personal sentimental value, but despite that I just think GW is sinking money and production time that could have been used on Warhammer into an almost universally-ignored game system.

I don't play it and it definatly isn't their best selling game, it does have a loyal fanbase

I love the minis. I have one painted Mumak and look forward to a future (a far
future) of having plenty more.

Nope, I don't play it. I just have a problem.

I dip into it when the mood takes me.

It has some nice minis and the rules are pretty good.

Orky-Kowboy wrote:...because it takes up nealy a third of my White Dwarf every time I buy one, despite no one I know of playing it. I think GW should just focus on 40k and WHFB and stop hawking Aragorn at me. The first novel I ever read was LOTR, so the story, characters and setting have personal sentimental value, but despite that I just think GW is sinking money and production time that could have been used on Warhammer into an almost universally-ignored game system.

The sad truth is, for people who actually do play LotR rely heavily on WD for rules for models as their model profiles are all over the place.

Main rules, legions of middle earth, journey and other source books and then finally the hunt for the missing issue of WD for that mini you just bought and have no clue where to find the rules for it since GW dont publish all the profiles on their site.

I once thought very much as you did after my initial interest in LotR was crushed by its early incarnation of the rules.

But, WotR is a great game and is only building up in interest locally and abroad. The SBG version is sadly underrepresented by GW in other forms of support, but at least they get some occasional love in WD.

The saddest part is that the WotR and SBG rules are the best GW currently offer, which may be why WHFB is rumored to borrow so heavily from WotR.

Other than the annoying hunt to find model profiles scattered across multiple publications, I am glad I stopped playing 40K and have never looked back.

In summation, I couldnt disagree with you more about LotR taking up resources that otherwise could be dedicated to 40K or WHFB. In fact, I think GW should dedicate more support for LotR.

Don't play it.
Have never bothered to get more than about 20 pages into the book (first one).
The movies put me to sleep.
Don't read the WD content.

It's a passing fad. This too shall pass. Like Warzone or Chronopia, or other miniatures games that have come and gone in the last 20 years.

LotR was what got me into Warhammer (40k). In fact, when I finally finish my Nids and Lizardmen, I'll be focusing on my Uruks for a while.

Don't play it.
Know 2 guys who have huge armies of several forces.
Know about anoth 40 who play at tourneys/clubs.

I have never, ever seen it played at any GW, including a battlebunker, outside of intro matches vs staff.

But does the handful of players justify the production and marketing costs of a product which a fraction of GW's market actually cares about? I also like many of the models, but it seems like it would make better business sense for GW to pour that money into other projects or into Warhammer.

Orky-Kowboy wrote:But does the handful of players justify the production and marketing costs of a product which a fraction of GW's market actually cares about? I also like many of the models, but it seems like it would make better business sense for GW to pour that money into other projects or into Warhammer.

but if they only went with wha sold we'd only have space marines supported, wait...

I play both LOTR and WOTR. Fantastic games. A lot of people write it off because of the movies which is sad.

It's interesting though that a lot of the new rules coming for warhammer actually sound a lot like the WOTR rules.

Orky-Kowboy wrote:But does the handful of players justify the production and marketing costs of a product which a fraction of GW's market actually cares about? .

The continued production would perhaps suggest that it is more than a handful of players no ?

chromedog wrote:It's a passing fad. This too shall pass. Like Warzone or Chronopia, or other miniatures games that have come and gone in the last 20 years.

Clearly a theme such as middle earth which has widely influenced every single bit of fantasy genre is a passing fad.

Orky-Kowboy wrote:But does the handful of players justify the production and marketing costs of a product which a fraction of GW's market actually cares about? I also like many of the models, but it seems like it would make better business sense for GW to pour that money into other projects or into Warhammer.

To me the real question is do you think it really is only a handful of players? If that was true do you think GW would have made three very high quality plastic kits for LOTR in the past three months for it if such was really the case?

It may be a fraction of GW market, but I think that fraction is far larger than even I think it is. WotR must have had a positive effect on their Tolkien IP, or we wouldnt have a supplement exactly a year after its initial release along with more model support than has been seen in quite a long time for LotR.

Good business sense isn't dropping a license for one of the most solid literary intellectual properties. Apparently it makes enough money for them to continue paying the licensing costs.

I know this is merely anecdote, but GW sales for 40K and WHFB in minneapolis are so bad that LotR is actually outperforming both of them in some stores and matching them in others. This is unheard of even during the heyday of the supposed 'LotR bubble'. As anecdotal as that is, its hard from where I am sitting to imagine it isnt making a fair bit of cash especially considering what GW charges for their products and what it costs to produce.

Well, the game shop on the north end of town seems to run LotR about once a week or so and has a pretty good and consistent turnout. Barrie is only 125000 people, so it's not the biggest place ever, but LotR seems to be alive and well here.

One other thing to note is that the vast majority of the folks I see playing it don't cross over into 40K. Around here, the groups are fairly separate. I can't really speak to Warhammer Fantasy though since I've yet to actually see a game in town.

From what I gather, the people who ended up really really getting hardcore into Lord of the Rings/War of the Rings are avid historical players.

The kinds of folks who have their own tables at home and mates they can get together for games over beer & pretzel at home.

Kanluwen wrote:From what I gather, the people who ended up really really getting hardcore into Lord of the Rings/War of the Rings are avid historical players.

The kinds of folks who have their own tables at home and mates they can get together for games over beer & pretzel at home.

+1. Historical gamers have a liking for the scenario based game that LotR was.

Honestly, I think the playing in stores thing is vastly more common among 40k/WHFB and even Warmachine players.
Before the popularity boom of 40k, I never played at a store. We always found a friends house to play in.

Due to the hostility I have seen on Dakka and other forums toward LotR/WotR, I would not want to play in a GW store either becuase I have another places to play.
I just played WotR in my local GW because the manager suggested it. He wanted to get people to see the game, and we were willing to do it.
We had a crowd around the table of 40k/FB players all interested.

Also, if WotR wasn't selling, they would not produce new all-plastic kits every month. Plastic kits have high up-front cost, and only become profitable long term.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The OP's comments put me in mind of a comparison.

If you are buying a cross-platform video game magazine, and you only play Xbox360, do you begrudge the sections that cover the Wii, PS3, PSP, and Gameboy?

White Dwarf is not a 40k/FB magazine. It is a magazine that covers ALL GW games (in theory).

Orky-Kowboy wrote:But does the handful of players justify the production and marketing costs of a product which a fraction of GW's market actually cares about?

If your premise was actually true, then we'd be seeing GW redirecting capital and production towards more profitable ends, and not putting out so much support for LotR.

LOTR and WOTR make up about 5%-10% of GW sales which was dollarwise more than Privateer Press made last year. No where near 40k sales but a fair chunk of change to leave on the table.

I do have some miniatures from a promotional magazine subscription. But that's about it.

Never played, haven't paint them. They are just waiting on the shelve for me to finish painting my 40k/fantasy armies.

Oxfordseth wrote:LOTR and WOTR make up about 5%-10% of GW sales which was dollarwise more than Privateer Press made last year. No where near 40k sales but a fair chunk of change to leave on the table.

Does Privateer Press report their earnings? I didn't think they did because they weren't public.

There must be a market for the stuff out there somewhere. When something doesn't work GW seems pretty good about dropping it and moving on. When was the last time you heard anything about Gorka Morka or Necromunda? (The exception appearing to be Epic 40k which still has a section on the website despite not having any new models in... well over a decade?)

Now, if they want to take those LoTR profits and turn them into, I dunno, 40k online they would get my vote

Tekksama wrote:
Now, if they want to take those LoTR profits and turn them into, I dunno, 40k online they would get my vote

Be patient, that's being worked on.
Maybe next year you'll have a surprise...

I don't play, although I want to. Depending on what changes with the WHFB 8th edition, I may drop the NiB WoC army I have waiting and use it to start a Mordor hodge-podge. The Dwimmerlaik is calling to me, as are the new plastic Morgul Knights.

Unfortunately, noone at the FLGS plays. I may have to look into picking up some Elves or Gondorians for playing scenarios with my pals.

"Does Privateer Press report their earnings? I didn't think they did because they weren't public. "


True, getting exact numbers is pretty hard, but there are several places to get company profiles nowadays. And while these are estimates, even the higher end numbers come in less than what LOTR did last year.

http://www.manta.com/c/mmsmnny/privateer-press-inc

I remember that game! No never played it. Have no interest with anything related to LOTR. Didnt like the movies either (wizard that casts light, yeah, great).

Got noth'n against it though. I remember when White dwarf added it to their mag. What a bummer that was. Actually, White Dwarf is a bummer. Never anything really all that good in it. Collected it for about a year many, many years ago but got annoyed with it.

MAN im negative today. haha.

Would like to see 2 people play it though.

Personally, I'd love to play it, and I'm continually toying with going out and expanding on the boxed sets I already have. Then I see that I haven't painted them yet and am currently trying to do that so I can but more. Another reason I don't play all that much is no-one in my area plays, which for obvious reasons makes it very difficult for me to get a game.

I have played a few games however, and I actually prefer it over 40k, which is what I started with. The reason for this is that the battles are far more narrative than with 40k, and they show the ebb and flow of the battle a lot more. I can also relate to them, being an avid LotR fan (well, to an extent, i'm certainately not obcessed with it). I do enjoy the scenario based battles as well.

What I find annoying however is the new 'supplement' that is WotR, which just seems like an excuse to get players to buy loads more models for what was previously a skirmish based game. While I appreciate the fact that a lot of LotR battles in the books were huge, I feel they are playable with the current ruleset, and I don't see why GW have to bring out units that in my mind are nothing to do with LotR (particularly the Elven Stormcaller, a model which really irked me).

Kanluwen wrote:From what I gather, the people who ended up really really getting hardcore into Lord of the Rings/War of the Rings are avid historical players.

The kinds of folks who have their own tables at home and mates they can get together for games over beer & pretzel at home.

This actually makes sense because I have yet to meet someone who has ever played it.

Why is their QQ'ing over the LOTR movies? I LOVED those movies.

Orky-Kowboy wrote:...because it takes up nealy a third of my White Dwarf every time I buy one,

I think GW should just focus on 40k and WHFB and stop hawking Aragorn at me.

I just think GW is sinking money and production time that could have been used on Warhammer into an almost universally-ignored game system.

You're part of GW's WD target market???

I think GW should just focus on whatever product lines generate the most profits for them, and not worry about the occasional kid not liking what they're doing.

So you're talking about Warmaster, Blood Bowl, Space Hulk, Battlefleet Gothic, and Epic Armageddon here?
____

Hellfury wrote: The saddest part is that the WotR and SBG rules are the best GW currently offer, which may be why WHFB is rumored to borrow so heavily from WotR.

I'm pretty darn happy with 40k 5E's rules and game balance, whereas WFB is grossly archaic in many ways. I'm very curious to see how GW revises WFB in 8E.
____

Orky-Kowboy wrote:But does the handful of players justify the production and marketing costs of a product which a fraction of GW's market actually cares about?

If you ask a Dark Eldar / Necron / Squat player, they will say "yes, absolutely". If you ask anybody else they'll say "maybe, if it makes things interesting".

Also, if LotR should ever happen to outsell WFB, shouldn't GW immediately pull the plug on WFB?
____

skrulnik wrote: Historical gamers have a liking for the scenario based game that LotR was.

Due to the hostility I have seen on Dakka and other forums toward LotR/WotR, I would not want to play in a GW store either

Also, if WotR wasn't selling, they would not produce new all-plastic kits every month. Plastic kits have high up-front cost, and only become profitable long term.

That is because LotR is designed as a pseudo-historical game, so of course they would like it.

A lot of grognards properly turn their noses up at the punks with their "pew-pew" space guns.

Or, it could be that GW is run by a bunch of complete morons who are sinking profits into product that only works when sold en masse, yet manage to be more-or-less consistently profitable while doing so...
____

Oxfordseth wrote:LOTR and WOTR make up about 5%-10% of GW sales which was dollarwise more than Privateer Press made last year. No where near 40k sales but a fair chunk of change to leave on the table.

Question: Where is this data coming from? Does GW share this via investor relations?

Question: Where is this data coming from? Does GW share this via investor relations?

Yes. GW earnings report is broken down several ways one of which is by product line. I know it's hard to believe, but it's true. You also have to realize GW has 9 different markets through out the world.

Highest estimates has PP making around 5M last year.
LOTR made just under 10m.