Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As far as I can tell, Guilliman was a tosspot.

Several legions turned traitor because their primarchs were pushed away/alienated by smurf prime, and into the sympathies of Horus. He was arrogant and belittling, and his work with codex astares had a mixed reception at best (with the surviving primarchs).

I fondly await fluff that states guilliman was a Tzeentch plot to boost the ranks of the Heresy to dangerous levels and weaken the subsequent Imperium by splitting its forces .

I was wondering if I am an odd loner in this opinion or if others agree with the principle (smurf prime is a bell).


PS. not that I overly care, never played marines
EDIT: Yes, I am joking here. Find the guy a git but don't think that he's about to be outed as a chaos +1

sigh.

Nah, Guilliman was a rather typical pawn of Malal, the Chaos God of Fail.

Really, he's such a jerk that I believe it's even beyond a Chaos God's powers to create...

You know, they don't call him Rowboat Jellybean for nothing...

If you check out the fluff in the Space Marines codex, it would seem to indicate that Gulliman managed to carve out his own little chunk of the empire, and that to date, it's the only part of the Imperium that seems like a decent place to live. The problem with Gulliman and the Ultramarines is that they are the best, and don't have any of those little character flaws that make a character interesting to audiences.

I personally dislike him for striking down Alpharius...besides that, i don't actually have a clear reason for hating the guy, but i still wholeheartedly do

Don't think he's a chaos plot so much as Captain Boring.

Jimsolo wrote:If you check out the fluff in the Space Marines codex, it would seem to indicate that Gulliman managed to carve out his own little chunk of the empire, and that to date, it's the only part of the Imperium that seems like a decent place to live. The problem with Gulliman and the Ultramarines is that they are the best, and don't have any of those little character flaws that make a character interesting to audiences.

But people have it both ways. They say Codex Astartes was a mistake but then also say they have no flaws. Can't be both.

He's that one guy who does everything right, and that's the only reason you can really hate him...

Rowboat Girlyman was raised by scout graduates and had a cushy life.


He spent a bajillion bucks to build himself a tomb that makes the goldenthrone look like a boring mountain of machinery.



i actually once made up a story that the Codex was writen the influence of chaos.

MekanobSamael wrote:Don't think he's a chaos plot so much as Captain Boring.

+1

I even like the chaos primarchs more than him, they're more fun to read about.

ROFLboute Gassyman is definitely one of Primarchs whose flaws influenced and brought about the heresy. He was proud, rigid, controlling, and zealous in his beliefs; his actions helped lead to the corruption of Alpha Legion.

Jimsolo wrote:If you check out the fluff in the Space Marines codex, it would seem to indicate that Gulliman managed to carve out his own little chunk of the empire, and that to date, it's the only part of the Imperium that seems like a decent place to live. The problem with Gulliman and the Ultramarines is that they are the best, and don't have any of those little character flaws that make a character interesting to audiences.

Well, I could see someone taking the Ultramarines and giving them flaws in a story. They tend to be rigid, controlling, proud, and zealous in their beliefs (Just like Girlyman). Plenty of material there.

I was actually thinking they'd make a fine Chaos legion; oppression leads to order, order is a good thing for them. Plus, that U is begging to be turned upside down into an omega symbol... The Omega Legion, to combat the loyal Imperium loving Alpha Legion?

No character flaws = boring?

Sanguinius is flawless in the canon (although his kiddies are a bit flying rodent gak insane), but he is hardly boring.

The Salamanders legion are marines that are actually, y'know, good guys. As opposed to guys who happen to be fighting on the good side. Yet they are a legion with a lot of popularity.

However, that said, I think that a beige personality is a problem for any character. Smurf is also an arrogant git in the canon writings.

Ah well, I suppose an irrational hatred for an imaginary person beats doing it for real. (Nb. Also a single historical target, I'd pop Charles De Gaulle's nuts with pliers)

too bad De Gaulle had no Balls to begin with.

I always thought it was his name that made him that way.

Atre wrote:No character flaws = boring?

Sanguinius is flawless in the canon (although his kiddies are a bit flying rodent gak insane), but he is hardly boring.

The Salamanders legion are marines that are actually, y'know, good guys. As opposed to guys who happen to be fighting on the good side. Yet they are a legion with a lot of popularity.

However, that said, I think that a beige personality is a problem for any character. Smurf is also an arrogant git in the canon writings.

Ah well, I suppose an irrational hatred for an imaginary person beats doing it for real. (Nb. Also a single historical target, I'd pop Charles De Gaulle's nuts with pliers)

Salamanders are interesting because they represent a new side of space marines, marines that fight for the sake of imperial citizens and not "For the Emperor!" and their own glory. Not only that, but physically, they have mutations that make them interesting and give them sort of an image.

Sanguinius is very close to flawless, and he IS boring. There are very few sanguinius fans out there. Oddly enough "died instantly for almost no cause at the hands of Horus" isn't seen as being the makings of a hero.

Grey Templar wrote:too bad De Gaulle had no Balls to begin with.

Yes, but I suppose the French are always having to make the best of a bad situation in that regard.

it is kinda funny the french haven't won a war since Napoleon was around.

and he wasn't even french.

in fact most of his soldiers weren't french.

the French Forien Legion is feared becuase it contains exactly 0 frenchmen.


they have been on the winning side, but they always got totally overrun and smushed and then the British and US ahd to come save them.

I suppose this is topical.
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/victories.html

Anyway, I've just started reading Warriors of Ultramar. The Ultramarines do show some intolerance of the practices of their fellow chapter, the Mortifactors. That certainly counts as a flaw.

I think the main people don't like the Ultramarines is simple overexposure. We all get sick of the boys in blue.

Firstly, read Codex: Space Marines. Marneus Calgar is proud, Cato Sicarius is headstrong and possibly over-confident, and there's worry about the line of succession because Sicarious is such a rising star that he threatens to displace Calgar's designated successor Agemman, the Captain of the 1st Company. Their Master of Sanctity Ortan Cassius is a Tyranid-obsessed zealot, while their Chief Librarian Varro Tigurius maybe be tainted by contact with the Hive Mind of the xenos Tyranids.

They may not be as obviously tainted as the Blood Angels, or the Space Wolves, but they're also more human and that same drive for perfection and order that drives them and drove their Primarch is what corrupted Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children.

except the entry on calgar says he doesn't let his pride turn to aragance.

So? Pride isn't a sin because it can turn into arrogance.

Speaking hypothetically, if anything it's Calgar's proud awareness of his own excellence that prevents him from falling into the exaggerated self-regard of arrogance. That said, it still earns him enemies; regarding yourself as better than others is unpopular whether or not it's true. It's certainly more insidious if it's true since pride is what brought down Horus, who believed that his greatness meant that he deserved to be remembered, and honoured. Horus didn't think he was greater than he was, just great enough.

Besides, it's what came before the Fall.

ZoomDakkaDakka wrote:

Atre wrote:No character flaws = boring?

Sanguinius is flawless in the canon (although his kiddies are a bit flying rodent gak insane), but he is hardly boring.

The Salamanders legion are marines that are actually, y'know, good guys. As opposed to guys who happen to be fighting on the good side. Yet they are a legion with a lot of popularity.

However, that said, I think that a beige personality is a problem for any character. Smurf is also an arrogant git in the canon writings.

Ah well, I suppose an irrational hatred for an imaginary person beats doing it for real. (Nb. Also a single historical target, I'd pop Charles De Gaulle's nuts with pliers)

Salamanders are interesting because they represent a new side of space marines, marines that fight for the sake of imperial citizens and not "For the Emperor!" and their own glory. Not only that, but physically, they have mutations that make them interesting and give them sort of an image.

Sanguinius is very close to flawless, and he IS boring. There are very few sanguinius fans out there. Oddly enough "died instantly for almost no cause at the hands of Horus" isn't seen as being the makings of a hero.

except he tore horus's throat out so not totally a failure, and not really boring either if you read your pre heresy/heresy fluff

I've read some stuff on Sanguinius. And I find him boring. The most boring of the Primarchs.

And Nurglitch, while I agree (tentatively) with most of what you said, I can't back your statement that pride was what undid Horus. I have read the books in which his fall is detailed, and just can't agree that it was pride that undid him. If anything, naivete or stupidity. I don't want to be some kind of harsh internet troll who rails endlessly about how much he hates something, but I was seriously underwhelmed with the writing for most of the Horus Heresy. Particularly the temptation and fall of each of the Primarchs that I have read about thus far.

So, while pride may have been a contributing factor, I think Horus was really undone by sub-par writing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And to ammend my earlier statement, they don't have enough character flaws. Or at least enough relatable ones. I think that might be part of the problem. People are unwilling to identify with a character who has a character flaw in common with them when they themselves don't want to admit to said character flaw. (And, no, I am not pointing any fingers. To avoid a page and a half of diatribe, if you read this post, and assumed I was talking about you, then I wasn't.)

Also, Canuck, who said the Codex Astartes was a mistake? I mean, I know the Ultramarines' detractors have a problem with it, but who from their camp thought it was a mistake?

I dunno. I guess it is all an opinion issue, but I like Roboute Gulliman. And if I had to live as a regular person in the Imperium, I would pray that I could get to live on one of those worlds in the Ultramarines' sphere of influence.

Nurglitch wrote:They may not be as obviously tainted as the Blood Angels, or the Space Wolves, but they're also more human and that same drive for perfection and order that drives them and drove their Primarch is what corrupted Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children.

Bravo!

I love Guilliman. I love Lord Macragge. The Ultramarines are awesome. The fact that so many of the twelve year olds who supposedly love them grow up to be sixteen year olds that supposedly hate them makes me appreciate them even more.

See also: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/249758.page

Necroman wrote:

I was actually thinking they'd make a fine Chaos legion; oppression leads to order, order is a good thing for them. Plus, that U is begging to be turned upside down into an omega symbol... The Omega Legion, to combat the loyal Imperium loving Alpha Legion?

I personally dislike him for striking down Alpharius...

No no, that's just what Alpharius wants you to think.

Guilliman was pretty amazing. Not for the Codex Astares. Not for carving out the Ultramar sector, which has better living conditions than Terra. No, he's amazing for what he didn't do.

The Imperium had just driven back the traitor legions, and nearly 1/3 of the standing army had turned traitor. Of the remaining Legions, only the Iron Hands and Space Wolves had much of a force left. The Salamanders and Raven Guard had nearly been wiped out at the drop site massacre (and the Iron Hands had lost their veteran company and primarch). The Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and White Scars were all at Terra, and had taken massive loses, including Sanguinus' death. The Dark Angels were dealing with their own treachery, the destruction of their homeworld, and loss of their primarch. That pretty much leaves the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, and the primarch-less Iron Hands as remaining forces. The Ultramarines probably outnumbered all the remaining loyalist marines 5:1, possibly by even more.

And what does Guilliman do? He doesn't lay claim to the Emperor's Throne. He splits his own Legion in 30 or 40 pieces, pushes for the remaining Legions to do the same, all to prevent one man from wielding too much power. In other words, instead of trying to take over the Imperium (and based on he developed Ultramar, maybe he should have), he tries to ensure that he can't muster enough troops for a military coup. He saw the long picture and did what he thought was best for mankind in the long run, not what was best for him.

Ultramarines are put down because they're the 'cover army'. Ultramar is a wonderful corner of the universe. They're vanilla. But, I like them.

but is it really Alpharius who was killed, ever consider it was just a member of the alpha legion who looked like him? or maybe it was Omegon who got struck down? that aside, Guilliman was just a bad primarch i mean he did get offed by Fulgrim and his codex essentially weakened the imperium as a whole

That's the point. No one's sure if it was Alpharius or not. Especially considering the Ultramarines don't have any records that state Guilliman struck down Alpharius.