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I was wondering, following on from the previous 'Night Spinners' thread, whether Wraithlord units are at all better in anyway than Fire Prisms or Spinners. imo although Monstrous Creatures allow you to move & shoot heavy weapons, Wraithsight and powerful weapons shooting it down i think are the two main drawbacks with having Wraithlords . Should i start buying more Wraithlords as backup (i only have the one at the moment!), tanks, or take some completely different approach (eg. Troops)?

YmeLocSquirrel256

I don't know why an all comers list would want anything else than Fire Prisms. Prism has large blast and heavy AT weapon and Spinner has only large blast and they both cost the same. Wraithlord is way slower and you can't have same kind of flexibility with it. Of course it can have different kind of weapons but prism cannon has better anti-infantry and anti-tank capabilities than any weapon or weapon combo Wraithlord can have.

Well, it depends on the army list.
In a mech army, I'd consider fast skimmers only and in larger lists take 2 Prisms and 1 Spinner.
In a foot slogging army, the WL has its place able to give fire support (brightlance and eml).

I would agree, Star Engines as you probably know, boost all Eldar skimmer tanks by 12", and as they are already fast skimmers, can top 48" flatout with this ability. I also researched the Fire Prism's cannon, the combined power of 6 tanks in apocalypse gives out one focused shot at AP1, Strength D, Apocalyptic Barrage 6, or one dispersed shot at AP1, Strength 10, Apocalyptic Barrage 6, lol. on the other hand, wouldn't it be better to just take several guardian units in wave serpents, backed up by farseer psychic abilities ? or do both .

YmeLocSquirrel256.

I guess you mean 36'' in toto.

on the other hand, wouldn't it be better to just take several guardian units in wave serpents, backed up by farseer psychic abilities ? or do both

Well, in a mech army, troop choices are rather limited to DA or Storm Guardians in Serpents.

Yes, i suppose. thanks for the advice , see page 44 of Eldar Codex if you want to check this, for it is definitely a fast skimmer, meaning 36" flatout without star engines and can top 48" flatout with this ability. i admit that no shooting can be done, nor any embarking/disembarking of troops in that turn. still good to move at high speed across the board to capture an objective, or to get into an assault with the troops inside, the next turn.

YmeLocSquirrel256.

If the list already has fire prisms then it should stick with prisms.

A Wraithlord goes well with a Guardian squad with a spiritseer in cover holding an objective. The Guardian squad gives the wraith lord a spirit seer and holds the objective to win games, while the wraithlord threatens assault based units that can't handle a T8 MC.

If a list already has 2 wraithlords I don't see the need for a single fire prism.

War Walkers are also a viable option. Their firepower is staggering.

What about adding a unit of wraithguard? they can also be potentially deadly, and can also have a spiritseer to save those wraithsight rolls. imo i would rather have a unit of these with a spiritseer, and if you add a Farseer casting Fortune upon them, you do have one very tough unit. i haven't got any yet though, and its a shame you can't put them in falcons. War walkers, they're ok, yet like the Wraithlord, can be shot down quite quickly, and can usually be easily spotted when your opponent is checking LOS. The only advantages here are the Scouts rule and the cheap point price, but they aren't really much of an advantage, technically. imo i would think overall, that fire prisms would be better anyway. The vypers are alright i feel, they are pretty much cheap wave serpents without the troop transport and twin-linked powerful weapon bits.

YmeLocSquirrel256

Well, Wraithguard are good in a Iyanden list.
Then I'd consider a unit of 10 Wraithguard led by a Spiritseer with conceal.
I'd add some Guardian units for giving fire support, two Wraithlords (BL, EML), 3 War Walkers with scatter lasers, and Harlies (with kisses) led by a Shadowseer for counter strike.

Depends on the points limit, imo I would really recommend a Farseer with Fortune and one or two Fire Prisms though, cause otherwise the army will start to fall apart.

YmeLocSquirrel256.

It's probably the armies I play, but wraithlords cause me pretty much zero fear as either Tau or Orks. One broadside fullisade or hidden PK spells a quick doom for a WL, and I've had Thraka by himself beat down two WL and an Avatar in one assault. Both Night Spinners and Fire Prisms would give me more pause. I'm not really a fan of needing two or more heavy support slots to accomplish one shot, but it is a nice option. I'd probably give two fire prisms and a night spinner a try if I were playing Eldar, but War Walkers are also great, if extremely fragile.

Kroot Loops wrote:It's probably the armies I play, but wraithlords cause me pretty much zero fear as either Tau or Orks. One broadside fullisade or hidden PK spells a quick doom for a WL, and I've had Thraka by himself beat down two WL and an Avatar in one assault.

How?

I can't think of any way that could be possible, unless you are using Thraka and a squad of Nobs w/ PKs. If you could explain how a unit that strikes at Ini 1, with no more than 7 attacks, can demolish 6 T8 wounds, and 4 T6 wounds with a 4++ RR... Thraka can't assault more than one unit at a time, unless you are using a squad of something else to force fearless wounds, by winning the combat against all 3 units collectively.

I call hokey, but feel free to clarify how you actually accomplished this.

YmeLocSquirrel256 wrote:Yes, i suppose. thanks for the advice , see page 44 of Eldar Codex if you want to check this, for it is definitely a fast skimmer, meaning 36" flatout without star engines and can top 48" flatout with this ability. i admit that no shooting can be done, nor any embarking/disembarking of troops in that turn. still good to move at high speed across the board to capture an objective, or to get into an assault with the troops inside, the next turn.

YmeLocSquirrel256.

Fast Skimmers can move 24" flat out. Star Engines add 12". Eldar Fast Skimmers can move a maximum of 36" in a single turn.

Sorry i must have mis-read the rulebook. thanks though!

YmeLocSquirrel256

Wrexasaur wrote:

Kroot Loops wrote:It's probably the armies I play, but wraithlords cause me pretty much zero fear as either Tau or Orks. One broadside fullisade or hidden PK spells a quick doom for a WL, and I've had Thraka by himself beat down two WL and an Avatar in one assault.

How?

I can't think of any way that could be possible, unless you are using Thraka and a squad of Nobs w/ PKs. If you could explain how a unit that strikes at Ini 1, with no more than 7 attacks, can demolish 6 T8 wounds, and 4 T6 wounds with a 4++ RR... Thraka can't assault more than one unit at a time, unless you are using a squad of something else to force fearless wounds, by winning the combat against all 3 units collectively.

I call hokey, but feel free to clarify how you actually accomplished this.

Thraka has a 2+ invulnerable on the Waagh!, hits WL on 3's, wounds on 2's. models in b2b contact with multiple units at the start of an assault phase may split their attacks between them, declared before attacks are rolled. In the first combat phase with a 5/2 split on the WL, you usually kill one and wound the other (I've even killed both before with a 4/3 split and a lot of luck), usually taking no wounds and winning combat by 4-5, apply fearless wounds.

The 2+ invulnerable applies to the next player's turn as well, and with a 3/2 split on WL/Avatar, both are often dead at this point. If not, still typically won combat by 2-3, apply fearless wounds.

If the Avatar is still alive at this point, turn 3 is clean up. Thraka goes back to a 5+ invulnerable save at this point and will likely take some wounds, but the Avatar is highly unlikely to survive this many rounds. As to a 4++ re-roll, never seen it, either my opponent doesn'y use one of the Avatar's special rules, or you are assuming it will be fortuned.

One of the local Eldar players liked to run WL's and Avatar as an assault deterrent, when I first started playing Orks they blew through those MC with utter ease. I tend to keep the Nobz away from the WL since it causes instant death, but the Avatar is fair game for them if I want to split Thraka off to take the WL with a little less risk. However I am confident enough in Thraka that I usually don't bother.

Kroot Loops wrote:Thraka has a 2+ invulnerable on the Waagh!, hits WL on 3's, wounds on 2's. models in b2b contact with multiple units at the start of an assault phase may split their attacks between them, declared before attacks are rolled. In the first combat phase with a 5/2 split on the WL, you usually kill one and wound the other (I've even killed both before with a 4/3 split and a lot of luck), usually taking no wounds and winning combat by 4-5, apply fearless wounds.

Is there a rule that actually explains that? I can't find anything that confirms what you are saying. IC's have to move into assault before a squad they are with, and they can be targeted independently when in a squad. That seems to be the long and short of it, not sure what you are actually referencing.

The 2+ invulnerable applies to the next player's turn as well, and with a 3/2 split on WL/Avatar, both are often dead at this point. If not, still typically won combat by 2-3, apply fearless wounds.

Assuming that Thraka can somehow attack more than one model per assault phase, somehow...

First turn, you will need 6 attacks on the 2 WL, to average four wounds, as long as you get your 2+ to wound. That leaves one attack against the Avatar, which works out to .25 wounds per turn, without fortune; .125 with fortune. That puts Thraka well within being absolutely useless, the second turn; with nothing but a single dead WL to show for it.

If the Avatar is still alive at this point, turn 3 is clean up. Thraka goes back to a 5+ invulnerable save at this point and will likely take some wounds, but the Avatar is highly unlikely to survive this many rounds. As to a 4++ re-roll, never seen it, either my opponent doesn'y use one of the Avatar's special rules, or you are assuming it will be fortuned.

Now we can factor in the attacks from the WL + Avatar. WL with swords are 100 points, and a great way to fill up on cheap MC's; 4 with the Avatar, in total.

(Assault round 1, phase 1)
4 attacks from the WL w/ RR, 3 hits, 3 wounds, .5 wounds/turn. Nothing special.
4 attacks from the Avatar, 2.6 hits, 1.7 wounds, .29 wounds/turn. Again nothing special, but a decent chance overall to get a wound through that pesky 2++ save.
(Assault round 1, phase 2)
If you manage to kill a WL, then the chance to break the 2++ save, goes from about 79%, down to 54%. Still not bad if you ask me, two chances to get two wounds, means they can drop two wounds onto an IC, that is ridiculously hard to damage for one turn of the game. Not 5 or 6 turns... just one.

(Assault round 2, phase 1)
No more 2++ save...
We will assume that Thraka has killed both WL, which would actually make a lot of sense. He CAN last two phases of combat, and he can drop 2 WL w/o use of some assault rule that I haven't managed to find. Again point that out to me when you find it.

Avatar hits first, 4 attacks, 2.6 hits, 1.7 wounds, 1.7 wounds.
At this point, Ghaz has taken about 3 wounds total (average). 2 WL are dead, and Ghaz has basically earned his points back; good job Ghaz. Unfortunately, the Avatar has taken something like 1 wound, and less than that with fortune. The Avatar has also done his job, and Ghaz was probably better off attacking something else. If Ghaz manages to lock the Avatar up for the whole game, that is what matters. I don't think there is any situation where Ghaz is great counter to an Avatar, simply because of the 4++ constant save. With fortune on the Avatar, Ghaz will fail terribly.

One of the local Eldar players liked to run WL's and Avatar as an assault deterrent, when I first started playing Orks they blew through those MC with utter ease. I tend to keep the Nobz away from the WL since it causes instant death, but the Avatar is fair game for them if I want to split Thraka off to take the WL with a little less risk. However I am confident enough in Thraka that I usually don't bother.

If you can somehow fight two WL, and avoid the Avatar, then Ghaz is going to be the star of the game, he is amazing against WL. How are you able to get 3 MCs into combat, with one model? I don't get that... even two MCs doesn't make any sense. If your opponent is throwing WL into combat with Ghaz, then they are basically throwing those units away. It appears that you are getting the charge though...

No experienced Eldar player would throw WL into combat with any Warboss, or even a squad of Boyz with a PK Nob (unless they have mind war to pop the PK Nob ). Speaking of which, sluggas with a PK nob are a better way to lock down and chomp up WL in general. Grots can simply tarpit MCs for the entire game, if they manage to do well on LD tests. Large squads of Boyz are fearless, and you can get a BP/PK Nob either way. WL are not great against infantry heavy armies, but they are really quite cheap, and they come with 2 flamers. One good shot with flamers, will make them well worth their points.

Roasty toasty Orks.

The rule you're looking for is on page 41 of the BRB, under attacking.

Why would I place an attack on the Avatar? The idea is to kill the stuff with no invulnerable and force the fearless wounds onto whatever is left standing.

I've given you the results of my experience, but now lets do the theoryhammer.

On average Thraka will cause four wounds and take one.

Fearless wounds (which you failed to factor in I believe) will cause a further .99 wounds to WL and 1.5 to Avatar (I've never had my opponent cast fortune on it. Not a bad idea, but hasn't happened yet).

At this point when phase 2 commences, one or both WL are dead (depending on if it was 3/1 for wounds or 2/2) and the avatar has a wound.

Now the Avatar causes .29 wounds, Thraka causes 1.05. The Avatar has two wounds.

Fearless saves: .5 wound to the Avatar

after this, on average, they are going to trade 1 wound each. The Avatar will run out of wounds while Thraka still has one left.

As for the how, I didn't say it was something that would normally happen, or that resulted from good tactics. Using the 27" Waagh Assault gets you there, and he tended to bunch them together in a shallow U shape at a choke point, with the idea that no one would want to assault all three. Thraka's base is large enough to get in there and touch all three bases in that particular scenario (and yes, he has learned not to do this anymore).

Kroot Loops wrote:The rule you're looking for is on page 41 of the BRB, under attacking.

Understood, never took the time to think about that one too much. My bad.

As for the how, I didn't say it was something that would normally happen, or that resulted from good tactics. Using the 27" Waagh Assault gets you there, and he tended to bunch them together in a shallow U shape at a choke point, with the idea that no one would want to assault all three. Thraka's base is large enough to get in there and touch all three bases in that particular scenario (and yes, he has learned not to do this anymore).

Makes sense.

Fearless wounds (which you failed to factor in I believe) will cause a further .99 wounds to WL and 1.5 to Avatar (I've never had my opponent cast fortune on it. Not a bad idea, but hasn't happened yet).

All MCs will get a 3+ save against that. That bit makes a pretty big difference, and it is hard to rely on such a minimal advantage. Head to head, and when Ghaz has no save, the Avatar will do more damage than Ghaz; as well as hitting first. If Ghaz can get into combat with an avatar w/o fortune, the first two round with his 2++ save along with the extra attacks, are all between him and losing to the Avatar. Ghaz annihilates tanks/infantry ICs, but he is not particularly good against the Avatar.

The .99 is after saves (3 woundsx.33), so each surviving MC, including the Avatar, takes a wound

Avatar gets 4 attacks, hits on 3's (2.64 hits), wounds on 3's (1.74 wounds) and Ghaz gets a 5++ (1.17 wounds)

Ghaz gets 5 attacks, hits on 4's (2.5 hits) Wounds on 2's (2.1 wounds) and the Avatar gets a 4++ (1.05 wounds).

As you can see, they do indeed trade one wound back and forth. The two phases with Ghaz's 2++ will set him up to win that fight on average.

Which is why I essentially agreed with you, but noted that with fortune, the Avatar will win that fight easily. All saves are RRs, so your reliance on fearless wounds is basically irrelevant. Ghaz really needs to make his bonus assault attacks count, beyond which he uses a one turn invuln as a crutch. He will fair decently against an un-fortuned Avatar, but do piss poor against a fortuned one.

This is assuming that you will tell your opponent to use fortune pretty much all game, on the avatar. It is the main reason why the Avatar is worth his points; because he benefits so greatly from fortune. Avatar with, and without fortune, are two entirely different ballgames.

You should mention that to your opponent.
I dare say that an Avatar w/ fortune, would absolutely LOVE to spoon with Ghaz, any day of the week.

Fire prisms are great, but belong more in a mech list.

As Wustenflux said, WL's are excellent in a foot slogging list. They provide counter assault, anti horde (with flamers) and anti tank with the EML/BL set up (which I think is the best way to run them).

I run three of them in my footdar list and they are a corner stone of th elist. They are excellent, IMO.

As with pretty much every unit in this game though, the more the merrier. If you go Prisms, take three. If you go WL's, take three. Redundancy and target saturation increases survivability and effectiveness of all units.

Wrexasaur wrote:Which is why I essentially agreed with you, but noted that with fortune, the Avatar will win that fight easily. All saves are RRs, so your reliance on fearless wounds is basically irrelevant. Ghaz really needs to make his bonus assault attacks count, beyond which he uses a one turn invuln as a crutch. He will fair decently against an un-fortuned Avatar, but do piss poor against a fortuned one.

This is assuming that you will tell your opponent to use fortune pretty much all game, on the avatar. It is the main reason why the Avatar is worth his points; because he benefits so greatly from fortune. Avatar with, and without fortune, are two entirely different ballgames.

You should mention that to your opponent.
I dare say that an Avatar w/ fortune, would absolutely LOVE to spoon with Ghaz, any day of the week.

lol, I'll tell him. Then I'll hit the Avatar with the entire nob squad or ignore it till I kill the farseer

Reecius wrote:Fire prisms are great, but belong more in a mech list.

As Wustenflux said, WL's are excellent in a foot slogging list. They provide counter assault, anti horde (with flamers) and anti tank with the EML/BL set up (which I think is the best way to run them).

I run three of them in my footdar list and they are a corner stone of th elist. They are excellent, IMO.

WL are pretty cool. Mine have been particularly unlucky.
Maybe I am asking for too much, but they seem to need an invulnerable save. T8 is awesome against low strength weaponry, but pretty meh against AT guns. Lascannons. Statistically they aren't bad against lascannons and such, considering the multiple wounds; but they crumple to PKs and the like. Access to a 5+ invuln shield to go with the sword, would be a great addition to a new codex IMO. Along with assault options for WG... ahem.

As with pretty much every unit in this game though, the more the merrier. If you go Prisms, take three. If you go WL's, take three. Redundancy and target saturation increases survivability and effectiveness of all units.

If you are using an Avatar, I would recommend 3 swordlords. If you are going more shooty, I would much prefer taking a squad of 3 WW, to a third WL. A BL/EML WL is not going to be great against transports, and their role will fall cleanly within taking out AV13-14 tanks; none of which are AV13+. I am pretty sure that WL perform best when shooting at AV13, not AV14 (EML is kinda wasted, really). With 24 s6 shots that you can outflank, is a great way to add anti-transport/anti-cover, to your force.

It sucks that WW are so expensive, but I like the models either way. WL are cool models too.

About the Nightspinner, I have absolutely no idea. I am not convinced by the doomsayers, but I don't really see a solid use for the weapon itself. It's redeeming value is rending/TERRAIN EXTRAVAGANZA! (it would be funny to use 3 NS, just to piss off swarm armies ). Rending isn't that great when units get a cover save in most situations. For that matter, prisms aren't great either, but they really do their jobs quite well. The ability to snipe out assault termie squads, with a hefty chance to simply pop a LR instead, is nothing to sniff at. Large S6 AP3 templates are serious business as well.

Nightspinners are interesting, if nothing else.

Kroot Loops wrote:lol, I'll tell him. Then I'll hit the Avatar with the entire nob squad or ignore it till I kill the farseer

Lmao.

Footslogging Eldar have it tough against mechanized Orks. True story.

I agree MC need something (both WL and TMC). If the nids are anything to go by the WL will probably get more wounds (although maybe a T reduction?) but they seem reluctant to hand out Invulnerable saves to them so far. On the one hand I can understand that as against regular strength shooting they can be very difficult to wound, but in todays lists crammed with anti-tank weapons, there is usually plenty of fire power to bring them down.

As to the Nightspinner, I really like the idea of the tank. I understand quite a few people don't like it, but it seems like it would be very handy, although actual table experience might sway that one way or the other.

WL don't need an invul at all, IMO. Although, the shield idea sounds pretty damn cool and it would look awesome, too.

I run the Avatar/Eldrad and 3 WL's with flamers, B.Lance and EML.

I always make sure the WL's have a cover save, which goes miles to keeping them alive. And, as for fists, PK's, use Eldrad to mind war them first, then charge the WL in and he now tarpits the entire unit.

I love mine, they shoot first, and are counter assault second. I also keep a unit of harlies lurking in the backfield to go where needed too, which certainly helps.

Wraithlords are also a pretty good deal for the points. While one of the few non-overcosted eldar units, they're still far cheaper than most things that can handle them.

Yes I agree, and the second best way to run them, IMO, is with just a wraith sword. At that set up, they are only 100 points. Take three with the Avatar, and run them up the board, that is a pain train that most armies will be hard pressed to stop.

I use two squadrons of three warwalkers in any event. They are too good to pass up, a staggering twenty-four strength six shots per squadron.

Don't be fooled, they can be durable, if you use a serpent as mobile cover, then you have three walkers with cover saves, killing whatever they point at. Outflanking is also an option, depending on the enemy...

Night Spinners exist to make things interesting (read: irritating) to your opponent. Eldar don't often get to use good-ranged indirect fire (I have seen few people field Eldar artillery pieces, even at low points levels, and the Farseer power Eldritch Storm leaves something to be desired due to its poor range). The 12-72" range is just wonderful, and it's handy that the gun is twin-linked. It's a vague threat to transports and certain vehicles with lower side armour values, but the threat is there- your points are not entirely wasted if you come up against a wall of Chimeras/Rhinos/Predators. Besides, you can call down a St6 blast roughly anywhere on the board with little fear of retaliation or granting cover saves, and armies like Guard/Tyranids/Chaos Daemons will hate you for this. You can move 12" and shoot, letting you evade pursuit (and letting you skimp on upgrades- why buy holo-fields if you'll barely be shot at?).

If anything the Night Spinner looks like it was meant to be used in tandem with a pair of Fire Prisms. The Prisms circle around the target transport, and either unleash The One True Shot or two templates, whatever, the transport has a good chance of popping. When it does, the Night Spinner is there, and it will make the cowardly infantry's life difficult (teehee). Is this a truly efficient use of the firepower available to you? Popping one transport and mangling its contents every couple turns (accounting for misses/cover saves/bad damage rolls)? Maybe not. But at least the gift of indirect fire lets you respond to new threats from Deep Striking/Outflanking/Reserved infantry without having to spend a turn maneuvering into position. How cool is THAT?

Also consider the evil uses of the Doomweaver's side effect, "Monofilament Web of Manglement" or whatever, the one that makes the victim suffer difficult/dangerous terrain next time it moves. Doing this has the obvious effect of forcing vehicles to risk immobilization. Which isn't likely. But! If you target bike squads, I'm fairly sure you can prevent them from turbo-boosting next turn, so they can't simply flee when your other units get near, they can't do last-minute objective denials as well, and they can't get a 3+ cover save against, oh, how about a pair of Fire Prism templates? Someone really oughtta check the BRB to be sure, but I think I remember bikes can't turbo-boost through difficult terrain...

Wrexasaur wrote:
If you are using an Avatar, I would recommend 3 swordlords. If you are going more shooty, I would much prefer taking a squad of 3 WW, to a third WL. A BL/EML WL is not going to be great against transports, and their role will fall cleanly within taking out AV13-14 tanks; none of which are AV13+. I am pretty sure that WL perform best when shooting at AV13, not AV14 (EML is kinda wasted, really). With 24 s6 shots that you can outflank, is a great way to add anti-transport/anti-cover, to your force.

I have one Wraithlord with wraithsword, and eldar missile launcher, is it worth getting another two with the same setup, and an avatar? Bear in mind they are great at taking out tanks and infantry alike, and they can still be fired while the wraithlord is walking. Really, though, the trouble with wraithlords is that they are slow, and when you deploy them at the front due to how slow these things are, LOS is almost easy, a twin-linked lascannon or two could easily blow up a couple of wraithlords. The Night Spinner, as far as I can see, is a sort of confused Fire Prism. sure the doomweaver is twin-linked, and its range as long as the Fire Prism's, but the strength isn't that great, and you can't combine them, although that's probably why the made it a rending weapon instead. In the end I would agree, that a couple of Fire Prisms, and a Night Spinner will provide a strong force in a 40K game. imo one Night Spinner is enough, even in an Apocalypse game. What do you people think about this?

YmeLocSquirrel256