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. In the end I would agree, that a couple of Fire Prisms, and a Night Spinner will provide a strong force in a 40K game. imo one Night Spinner is enough, even in an Apocalypse game. What do you people think about this?

Well, I second this, one Night Spinner should be enough, fill the other 2 HS slots with Prisms.
In Apoc games, I really don't know as there are more options (squadrons) ...

I took a peek at an apocalypse rulebook, on a trip to warhammer world in nottingham, and the heavy support based squadrons mainly consist of 4 fire prisms and 1 command fire prism (usually at the pricing of all 5 fire prisms + 25pts), or something like that, but in apocalypse, you can create your own datasheets, as long as it is agreed with your opponent(s). no GW-made night spinner apocalypse datasheets as far as I can see. Possibly have 2 fire prism squadrons and 1 night spinner squadron, rather than 2 fire prisms and 1 night spinner in apoc . I haven't seen any for Wraith-related stuff either, although another model popular in Apocalypse is that Avatar again. One Apoc unit available is Avatar + All Phoenix Lords + Another small point price.

YmeLocSquirrel256

I would rather take 3 prisms than 2 prisms and a Nightspinner. I see nothing that a spinner would give me that Prism doesn't. You can argue that spinner might be good against footsloggers but I ain't seeing those much anyways and they aren't really a threat to a full mech fast skimmer army. Also nightspinners area denial is pretty moot point when prism can pop vehicles so easily. I would take a falcon rather than a spinner but as I said there aren't any foot armies around here.

Well, the other thread 'Night Spinner ?' shows that these tanks are eventually good vs. vehicle squadrons,
since if a tanks fails the dangerous terrain test, there is
half a chance to get a destroyed result (immobilized -> destroyed in squadrons).
Moreover, Bikes cannot turbo boost through dangerous terrain. Ouch!

Atherse wrote:
I would rather take 3 prisms than 2 prisms and a Nightspinner. I see nothing that a spinner would give me that Prism doesn't. You can argue that spinner might be good against footsloggers but I ain't seeing those much anyways and they aren't really a threat to a full mech fast skimmer army. Also nightspinners area denial is pretty moot point when prism can pop vehicles so easily. I would take a falcon rather than a spinner but as I said there aren't any foot armies around here.

I suppose in the end it's your choice. The armour is the same for all four tanks, they can all move just as fast, all have twin-linked shuriken pistols (upgradable to a single shuriken cannon), its only the main weapon, and the point price, based upon that.

wuestenfux wrote:
Well, the other thread 'Night Spinner ?' shows that these tanks are eventually good vs. vehicle squadrons,
since if a tanks fails the dangerous terrain test, there is
half a chance to get a destroyed result (immobilized -> destroyed in squadrons).
Moreover, Bikes cannot turbo boost through dangerous terrain. Ouch!

But why would you need to take it? You shouldn't need to take one anyway (the monofilament cannon in the Night Spinner being an exception). Jetbikes, Skimmers, and Jump Infantry can fly over any difficult/dangerous terrain, as long as they don't land on it. If it isn't one of those, you would simply avoid it wouldn't you?

YmeLocSquirrel256

Well, its meant the other way round.

Jetbikes, Skimmers, and Jump Infantry can fly over any difficult/dangerous terrain, as long as they don't land on it. If it isn't one of those, you would simply avoid it wouldn't you?

If a monofilament cannon hits such a unit it counts as being in difficult/dangerous terrain.

Well, yes.

YmeLocSquirrel256


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What about any of the Aspect Warriors? Should any of them be included in some of my future army lists? The Striking Scorpions seem reasonably good, especially the Exarch's Scorpion's Claw. Thanks for all of the advice so far!

YmeLocSquirrel256.

Meched Fire Dragons are the best elite choice. Scorpions don't have power weapons on everyone and claw is only s6. Banshees are bit better but still only s3. Dire Avengers are ok meched troops. I'd avoid reapers, hawks, shining spears, scorpions and spiders. Banshees can't charge from serpent and if they just walk around they risk getting shot to dust. Fire Dragons at least shoot at their targets before they get wiped.

Ok... Are you basing this also against the facts that swooping hawks carry haywire grenades? 1 D6 for every Hawk that performs Deep Strike at any time. 2+ is a glancing hit, 6+ a penetrating hit. Like the Fire Dragons, they can be great at taking out tanks. And Striking Scorpions, i mean, surely mandiblasters and scorpion chainswords will made a difference to the model's attacks no doubt. 15 attacks is obviously better than 5! Honestly, who cares if they all have a power weapon or not?

YmeLocSquirrel256


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mind if I just ask, are there any units in 40K where all of the models have a power weapon? Not including Independent characters or Monstrous Creatures, obviously.

YmeLocSquirrel256

YmeLocSquirrel256 wrote:Ok... Are you basing this also against the facts that swooping hawks carry haywire grenades? 1 D6 for every Hawk that performs Deep Strike at any time. 2+ is a glancing hit, 6+ a penetrating hit. Like the Fire Dragons, they can be great at taking out tanks. And Striking Scorpions, i mean, surely mandiblasters and scorpion chainswords will made a difference to the model's attacks no doubt. 15 attacks is obviously better than 5! Honestly, who cares if they all have a power weapon or not?
Mind if I just ask, are there any units in 40K where all of the models have a power weapon? Not including Independent characters or Monstrous Creatures, obviously.

YmeLocSquirrel256

It is true that 5-10 haywire hits can do damage. But for over 20 points per model for 1 attack and grenades? No thanks. I'd start to fill the FA slot for very last after everything else is already bought. And then I would take vypers not hawks. And what would you assault with your scorpions? They can't really hurt heavy melee units like terminators and TWC. Also Fire Dragons with flamer exarch are cheaper and still can do their trick the turn they are disembarking (turn of FD shooting is going to hurt anyone). Scorpions would have to stand for a turn (pistol fire doesn't really count). Of course you can infiltrate them if you want to pay even more, but thet still aren't that killy, also one dread can ruin your whole squad.

Mind if I just ask, are there any units in 40K where all of the models have a power weapon? Not including Independent characters or Monstrous Creatures, obviously.

Funny question.
Yes, indeed, Sanguinary Guard and upgraded DC or Wolf Guard come to my mind.

Add Terminators to that list, they show up far more than those units.

There are actually quite a few units in which all the model CAN have power weapons (or fists) but most of the time its overkill, your better off keeping a few ablative wounds and saving some points. In any case simply having a full squad of power weapons isn't very helpful when they struggle to get into combat in the first place (T3, 4+ and hard to assault out of a transport) and once they do they struggle to wound anything.

wuestenfux wrote:

Mind if I just ask, are there any units in 40K where all of the models have a power weapon? Not including Independent characters or Monstrous Creatures, obviously.

Funny question.
Yes, indeed, Sanguinary Guard and upgraded DC or Wolf Guard come to my mind.

Also DE Incubi and Ork Nobz with all pk setup.

Aetherse wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

Mind if I just ask, are there any units in 40K where all of the models have a power weapon? Not including Independent characters or Monstrous Creatures, obviously.

Funny question.
Yes, indeed, Sanguinary Guard and upgraded DC or Wolf Guard come to my mind.

Also DE Incubi and Ork Nobz with all pk setup.

Banshees. But back to the topic...

What about Rangers for capturing objectives? They aren't the best unit in the game by a mile, i admit, and their point price, like the Swooping Hawks, it is just as steep, yet the Pathfinders rule after adding 5pts for each model in the unit AFAIK allows them to improve their cover save by 2+, get the Scouts special rule, and ignore difficult terrain. Or is there some other unit worth considering and discussing we've missed?

YmeLocSquirrel256

Well, if you want Rangers then upgrade them to Pathfinders.
Take a 5 men squad and deploy it on top of the objective.
If you have to move them you eventually did something wrong.

However, Pathfinders are threatened by outflankers and cover-save ignoring weapons.

True and true. Couldn't agree with you more.

YmeLocSquirrel256

You should rename this thread to war walkers.

They have more killing power then any of the other heavy support slots, they can outflank (a good trick to have, if seldom used)...

They can be nasty to get out if they have a cover save.

They are a bargain.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

You should rename this thread to war walkers.

They have more killing power then any of the other heavy support slots, they can outflank (a good trick to have, if seldom used)...

They can be nasty to get out if they have a cover save.

They are a bargain.

Woah, hang on a minute, they're easy to spot with LOS, only two weapons available, and movement isn't that great. Also, these can get shot down very quickly, as I said previously in this thread if i can recall correctly...

YmeLocSquirrel wrote:
War walkers, they're ok, yet like the Wraithlord, can be shot down quite quickly, and can usually be easily spotted when your opponent is checking LOS. The only advantages here are the Scouts rule and the cheap point price, but they aren't really much of an advantage, technically. imo i would think overall, that fire prisms would be better anyway.

I simply feel they are a waste of points imo.

YmeLocSquirrel256.

"Two weapons available"? The Fire Prism has two weapons available if you count the shuriken cannon. Ditto for the Night Spinner. A Falcon has three. Ditto for *snicker* artillery. A Wraithlord might have four weapons available to him in the middle of combat, but he won't have many shots per turn, unless your opponent throws flammable things in front of him. The unit of War Walkers, on the other hand, will have six weapons between them. If one gets wrecked, you still have four heavy weapons. If you want raw heavy weapon firepower, you can get six missile launchers at 210 points for the squadron, or six scatter lasers for 180 points. If you're a big enough smartass to have a Farseer sit there and guide + fortune the unit, those War Walkers will flatout kill stuff. Even without the Farseer, if you stick them in cover (trees, weird buildings, behind corners, etc), they will go far.

Outflanking doesn't do much for their survivability, true, but you DO have the option to ensure you will get triple the firepower of a Wraithlord for one turn into a target. Unless you're really cunning, it might be a waste of points if you choose that, though, so it's usually easier to just stick them in cover and A) Kill lots of stuff for a decent amount of time, or, if there's something blocking the line of sight for your War Walkers, B) Seriously threatening area denial. No opponent wants to go around a corner and face six EML shots or 24 scatter laser shots, even with a transport. The odds of a 'vehicle explodes' being rolled goes way up when it's a single unit getting in that many shots, and that means the risk of lots of dead guardsmen or a few Khorne Berserkers- either way it's a nasty threat.

Out of cover, War Walkers aren't so hot- they CAN be shot down pretty quickly. But...you're not going to use them the same as you would use Wraithlords, right?

Problem with WW is that they are really an one trick pony. They come in, shoot once and then take a beating they can't really take. Only thing you can do with WW is to shoot. With any tank you can shoot, tank shock and contest objectives (if they are still around in the end). If I want extra heavy weapons I kit my serpents instead of wasting my points to get a turn of shooting that might or might not be around when I need it.

Aetherse wrote:Problem with WW is that they are really an one trick pony. They come in, shoot once and then take a beating they can't really take. Only thing you can do with WW is to shoot. With any tank you can shoot, tank shock and contest objectives (if they are still around in the end). If I want extra heavy weapons I kit my serpents instead of wasting my points to get a turn of shooting that might or might not be around when I need it.

They can also assault as a follow-up with good results...

It is easy to get them a cover save, so you now have three walkers with a cover save, nothing with 36" range will easily take those out. Why do they have to "come in"? They can easily just start on the table.

Wasting points...? Serpent, one shot can kill, walkers, need alot more shots to kill.

If you're within rapid-fire range, you're doing something wrong.

@YmeLoc

Just because you disagree, my point is invalid?

They cannot be shot down easily, while they can be seen easily with LoS, they can easily be given a cover save. That would make them hard to kill.

Fire prisms can never put out as much hurt as the walkers, no matter how you spin it.

You may think they're a waste of points, though I have a tally of opponents who rightfully fear my walkers.

Con Carne wrote:
"Two weapons available"? The Fire Prism has two weapons available if you count the shuriken cannon.

With 'two weapons available, here I meant the War Walker, Con Carne!

Con Carne wrote:
Out of cover, War Walkers aren't so hot- they CAN be shot down pretty quickly. But...you're not going to use them the same as you would use Wraithlords, right?

Well, technically, because Wraithlords and War Walkers are just so slow, you can barely do anything with them, regardless of Strength, Toughness and Wounds stats, as they will get blown up by any powerful weaponry. If I can also recall correctly...

YmeLocSquirrel256 wrote:
Really, though, the trouble with wraithlords is that they are slow, and when you deploy them at the front due to how slow these things are, LOS is almost easy, a twin-linked lascannon or two could easily blow up a couple of wraithlords.

Basically, what i'm trying to say is that wraithlords and war walkers nearly always get killed in the first couple of turns and are a bit of a waste of points AFAIK.

YmeLocSquirrel256.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

They can also assault as a follow-up with good results...

It is easy to get them a cover save, so you now have three walkers with a cover save, nothing with 36" range will easily take those out. Why do they have to "come in"? They can easily just start on the table.

Wasting points...? Serpent, one shot can kill, walkers, need alot more shots to kill.

If you're within rapid-fire range, you're doing something wrong.

Small arms are problem with outflanking, and don't get started with assaulting with that av and ws 3 (gutted fire warriors might lose but not anyone else). WW in cover isn't nearly as fragile but still ain't very tough. And they can still only shoot. 18 EML is nothing to laugh at but with bs 3 you miss half of the time and in few turns the enemy will be in your face. That 4+ cover save ain't gonna save you from heavy bolters and multilasers when you are only AV 10.
Also outflankers and deep strikers are neutralizing the whole squad when they touch it skimmer can at least can zoom away.

Yes walkers might get taken out during the first few turns, if you're unlucky, however they already would have killed whatever they needed to and then some.
I rarely go a game with my walkers getting destroyed...

Warwalkers are tricky to use, mainly because of their paper armor. I always try to plan my games, assuming that the WW are not going to shoot more than twice in the whole game. If I pick the right targets and roll averages, they have done their job. Dropping guide onto 24 S6 shots is always a good idea, but not always necessary.

If you play on tables with forest terrain, or anything that can give the walkers cover while allowing them clear LOS; WW are some of the best shooty units Eldar can bring to the table. They can snipe 3-4 marines a salvo, without use of guide; 5+ marines with guide. 7-10 Orks/ turn isn't amazing, but it is definitely one of the best ways to take down Orks at range. What WW can't do very well, is deal with stuff with FNP. While 15 wounds from use of guide will drop 2-3 Termies (pretty mean against assault termies, I must say), it won't be able to take down FNP nobs; S. lasers do even worse against biker FNP nobs.

My main goal with WWs, is for them to take down units that present the greatest threat to the rest of the army first, then the greatest threat to the WWs themselves second. 24 S6 shots are absolutely devastating to AV10-11 transports, and in many cases much more firepower than you actually need. I consider WWs to have much the same targets as Lootas, with the benefit of being relatively mobile, and the disadvantage of being vulnerable to AT weaponry. There is no guarantee that your WW will find cover in every game, so they are a bit of a risk in general. If WWs can't start the game in cover, they might need to start the game in reserve; where they can outflank later in the game.

With Eldrad on the field WWs gain the advantage, as they can be used to force positioning on your opponent during deployment, while having a guaranteed option to be moved to safety afterwards. A pretty nifty trick, and one that can force quite a few important decisions onto your opponent, before the game even starts.

Wrexasaur wrote:Warwalkers are tricky to use, mainly because of their paper armor. I always try to plan my games, assuming that the WW are not going to shoot more than twice in the whole game. If I pick the right targets and roll averages, they have done their job. Dropping guide onto 24 S6 shots is always a good idea, but not always necessary.

If you play on tables with forest terrain, or anything that can give the walkers cover while allowing them clear LOS; WW are some of the best shooty units Eldar can bring to the table. They can snipe 3-4 marines a salvo, without use of guide; 5+ marines with guide. 7-10 Orks/ turn isn't amazing, but it is definitely one of the best ways to take down Orks at range. What WW can't do very well, is deal with stuff with FNP. While 15 wounds from use of guide will drop 2-3 Termies (pretty mean against assault termies, I must say), it won't be able to take down FNP nobs; S. lasers do even worse against biker FNP nobs.

My main goal with WWs, is for them to take down units that present the greatest threat to the rest of the army first, then the greatest threat to the WWs themselves second. 24 S6 shots are absolutely devastating to AV10-11 transports, and in many cases much more firepower than you actually need. I consider WWs to have much the same targets as Lootas, with the benefit of being relatively mobile, and the disadvantage of being vulnerable to AT weaponry. There is no guarantee that your WW will find cover in every game, so they are a bit of a risk in general. If WWs can't start the game in cover, they might need to start the game in reserve; where they can outflank later in the game.

With Eldrad on the field WWs gain the advantage, as they can be used to force positioning on your opponent during deployment, while having a guaranteed option to be moved to safety afterwards. A pretty nifty trick, and one that can force quite a few important decisions onto your opponent, before the game even starts.

That basically sums things up.

They can always get cover if you have a wave serpent though!

Wraithguard can provide cover to both WL and WW, as well as being troops with access to a 5+ cover save of their own. I am not a huge fan of hybrid lists, as they always seem to be very tricky to use. If a tank is providing cover, then it isn't being a transport, which is the strong-suit of an expensive Eldar skimmer.

It is interesting to note that while S. laser WWs benefit substantially from guide, only EML WWs benefit from guide AND doom. EML kind of suck against units in cover, when you don't use doom. On the other hand, EML are much more flexible overall, given their range and ability to perform most AT/AI roles. S. lasers are still more cost effective against Meq units in general though. AP4 can be pretty substantial if you can get shots against units w/o cover, but there aren't a whole lot of units that suffer against AP4 weaponry.

Pinning is an afterthought... really. 6 EML on one squad is nothing to take serious note of.

You may think they're a waste of points, though I have a tally of opponents who rightfully fear my walkers.

They are not a waste of points. Especially if they are guided they can dish out serious damage.
And if they go down I really don't care. Its usually the most expendable unit in the list.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:
Warwalkers are tricky to use, mainly because of their paper armor. I always try to plan my games, assuming that the WW are not going to shoot more than twice in the whole game. If I pick the right targets and roll averages, they have done their job. Dropping guide onto 24 S6 shots is always a good idea, but not always necessary.

If you play on tables with forest terrain, or anything that can give the walkers cover while allowing them clear LOS; WW are some of the best shooty units Eldar can bring to the table. They can snipe 3-4 marines a salvo, without use of guide; 5+ marines with guide. 7-10 Orks/ turn isn't amazing, but it is definitely one of the best ways to take down Orks at range. What WW can't do very well, is deal with stuff with FNP. While 15 wounds from use of guide will drop 2-3 Termies (pretty mean against assault termies, I must say), it won't be able to take down FNP nobs; S. lasers do even worse against biker FNP nobs.

My main goal with WWs, is for them to take down units that present the greatest threat to the rest of the army first, then the greatest threat to the WWs themselves second. 24 S6 shots are absolutely devastating to AV10-11 transports, and in many cases much more firepower than you actually need. I consider WWs to have much the same targets as Lootas, with the benefit of being relatively mobile, and the disadvantage of being vulnerable to AT weaponry. There is no guarantee that your WW will find cover in every game, so they are a bit of a risk in general. If WWs can't start the game in cover, they might need to start the game in reserve; where they can outflank later in the game.

With Eldrad on the field WWs gain the advantage, as they can be used to force positioning on your opponent during deployment, while having a guaranteed option to be moved to safety afterwards. A pretty nifty trick, and one that can force quite a few important decisions onto your opponent, before the game even starts.

That basically sums things up.

They can always get cover if you have a wave serpent though!

wuestenfux wrote:
They are not a waste of points. Especially if they are guided they can dish out serious damage.
And if they go down I really don't care. Its usually the most expendable unit in the list.

Well, I suppose a wave serpent would only compete if it was twice the weaponry for the same price. Tell you what, i'll meet you people half way, its not the one I'd go for in apoc, based on limited movement, and weaponry, but i would say it's good enough value for money in normal games of 40K, due to the cheapness of the model, and it's effect against normal 40K units.

YmeLocSquirrel256.