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Well, in 1500 pts I recently fielded a squadron of 3 War Walkers with shuricannons, 120 pts.
Cheap and effective.

Looks like this is a useful unit for games of 40K then!

YmeLocSquirrel256


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also hadn't realized that War Walkers could have shuriken cannons, lol.

YmeLocSquirrel256.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Changing the subject, I forgot to mention, there is an apocalypse formation for the Night Spinner

Only Siam-Hann get a Fire Prism squadron though, but i'm sure a bit of 'counts as' will work fine!
Consider:


YmeLocSquirrel256.

The walkers get an apocalypse formation that lets them pop up and fire all their weapons twice, 48 shots from one squadron!

What about WW with Scatter Lasers and Bright Lance each? Thats 15 shots the wound most stuff on a 2+....not to bad VS troops, not to bad VS say Tyranid MC's, and good VS light armor......also with the 3 Bright Lances can still kill heavy armor. Both weapons are 36" not to bad range wise.....and outflank placement of models on board edge and 6" move..... Any thoughts?

You dont want to mix the weapons on a unit of war walkers, some of thier shots will tend to be wasted if you do.

A mix of BL and scatter lasers arent good against heavy armor...the scatter lasers are wasted. Against regular infantry the BL is a single BS 3 shot which will yield one dead basic infantry less than half the time.

If you want variable capabilites on the walkers take EML, can be used against anything and as a bonus give you another 12" of range.


Sliggoth

I prefer Eldar Missile launchers on my WLs and WWs (due to the fact you can choose between plasma and krak), the other weapon being a starcannon (on my WWs), and a wraithsword (on my WLs).

YmeLocSquirrel256.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, let's sum up the discussion so far. At the moment, based on what we have discussed, we think I should take, regardless of points cost:

HQ:

1 Farseer w/Fortune
1 Autarch? (Bear in mind I took 5 wounds off a Trygon Prime (6 wounds) in 1 turn with one of these and it's fusion gun. He was on a jetbike w/ a Laser lance as well (which I never use))

Elites:

5 Fire Dragons w/Exarch w/Firepike
5 Wraithguard w/Warlock w/Spiritseer upgrade
Harlequins? (as wuestenfux pointed out earlier, needs more discussion)


APCs:

1 Wave Serpent (imo w/ twin-linked Eldar ML, shuriken cannon upgrade, vectored engines, and star engines)

Troops:

10 Guardians (imo w/ Eldar ML)
10 Guardians (imo w/ Eldar ML)

Fast Attack:

Vyper? (Definitely needs discussing)

Heavy Support

2 Fire Prisms w/ shuriken cannon upgrade, vectored engines, and star engines imo.
1 Night Spinner w/ shuriken cannon upgrade, vectored engines, and star engines imo.

Sorry if I have got anything wrong, so do correct me! Also, please post anything we've missed, or you think needs changing/removing. hth.

YmeLocSquirrel256.

So long as you can keep it somewhere safe, the Night Spinner really doesn't need upgrades...oh, what the hell, may as well keep the shuriken cannon in case you need to put an ounce more firepower into a squad of infantry. Keep in mind it's BS 3, and I don't think the shuricannon is twin-linked.

Do the Fire Dragons get the APC, or the Wraithguard?

If you're not going for any other units with Wraithsight, there's no need to get the Spiritseer upgrade. I'm pretty confident that the Wraithguard in the same unit as the Warlock will be within 6" him. And...if you're going to get 5 Wraithguard without a transport, why not upgrade to 10 of them to, you know, make them a Troops choice to complement the guardians? What do you plan to do with them?

Who's the Farseer Fortuning?

Your list is going to be mostly on foot? If so, and if you're taking a troops choice load of Wraithguard, Harlequins are your ideal counterassault unit, and be sure to add a Shadowseer to keep them safer.

Is it a hybrid list? What's your overall goal? Right now you have a lot of disparate elements. Once we have a plan, we can start talking about Vypers

What is the "imo"?

I played a tournament, and took first losing these war walkers:

Round 1, 3 WW's ate it, 2 of them during turn 6/6... fire prisms wouldn't have been better here.

Round 2, 1 WW died, after terminators deep struck and ripped it a new one. Fire prisms wouldn't have been better here.

Round 3, 3 WW's died, from mech IG, and frankly, they're what won me that game, nothing else would have fit the bill.

Good luck with those prisms!

YmeLocSquirrel256 wrote:Yes, i suppose. thanks for the advice , see page 44 of Eldar Codex if you want to check this, for it is definitely a fast skimmer, meaning 36" flatout without star engines and can top 48" flatout with this ability. i admit that no shooting can be done, nor any embarking/disembarking of troops in that turn. still good to move at high speed across the board to capture an objective, or to get into an assault with the troops inside, the next turn.

YmeLocSquirrel256.

Please re-read the rulebook. A fast skimmer can cover 24" of ground if moving flat-out (unlike a non-skimmer fast vehicle which can only cover 18").

Warwalkers are really great with scatterlasers, especially if you throw Guide and/or Doom into the equation. That's a LOT of dakka.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:What is the "imo"?

I played a tournament, and took first losing these war walkers:

Round 1, 3 WW's ate it, 2 of them during turn 6/6... fire prisms wouldn't have been better here.

Round 2, 1 WW died, after terminators deep struck and ripped it a new one. Fire prisms wouldn't have been better here.

Round 3, 3 WW's died, from mech IG, and frankly, they're what won me that game, nothing else would have fit the bill.

Good luck with those prisms!

Not very informative. What kind of armament did your WWs have (so were they even filling the same role than prisms?). What kind of opponent did you have? What kind of scenario did you play? Did the walkers stand on the table or outflank?

On round 2 (only thing I can get any info) did the WW's die from melee? If so Prisms would have better changes of surviving (enemy deep strikes, you fly away), and if the walkers died of bolter fire then certainly prisms would have survived. And don't get me started on holofields and other upgrades that you should have on your prism.

I prefer prisms and falcons over walkers because their better survivability and ability to last turn contest. Of course 9 EML walkers will have huge damage output but the need for perfect firing position and weakness to low str weapons ticks me off. Also WW aren't that well suited for fighting against heavy saves because of their low bs already eating half of the shots.

Con Carne wrote:
Keep in mind it's BS 3, and I don't think the shuricannon is twin-linked.

No, it isn't twin-linked, Con Carne.

Con Carne wrote:
Do the Fire Dragons get the APC, or the Wraithguard?

AFAIK 5 Wraithguard can fit in a Wave Serpent maximum + up to 2 other additional Eldar infantry (eg. A spiritseer (upgraded Warlock)).
You can fit up to 12 infantry models (not incl. Wraithguard) into a Wave Serpent. You may want to add an additional 1 or 2 Wave Serpents to the list.

Con Carne wrote:
If you're not going for any other units with Wraithsight, there's no need to get the Spiritseer upgrade. I'm pretty confident that the Wraithguard in the same unit as the Warlock will be within 6" him. And...if you're going to get 5 Wraithguard without a transport, why not upgrade to 10 of them to, you know, make them a Troops choice to complement the guardians? What do you plan to do with them?

Who's the Farseer Fortuning?

You should agree, that if you roll for Wraithsight and get a 1, not being able to use 10 wraithguard with an AP2 Assault 1 weapon is quite a big drawback. Fortune these with your farseer. Also, do remember that Wraithguard always wound on 2+, glance vehicles on 3+, and penetrate vehicles on 5+. See http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=400035&pIndex=2&aId=4600008a&start=3.

Con Carne wrote:
Is it a hybrid list? What's your overall goal? Right now you have a lot of disparate elements. Once we have a plan, we can start talking about Vypers

I suppose so. You could add an extra Wave Serpent, and have 5 Wraithguard in each. Add more for other infantry units.

Terminus wrote:

YmeLocSquirrel256 wrote:
Yes, i suppose. thanks for the advice , see page 44 of Eldar Codex if you want to check this, for it is definitely a fast skimmer, meaning 36" flatout without star engines and can top 48" flatout with this ability. i admit that no shooting can be done, nor any embarking/disembarking of troops in that turn. still good to move at high speed across the board to capture an objective, or to get into an assault with the troops inside, the next turn.

YmeLocSquirrel256.

Please re-read the rulebook. A fast skimmer can cover 24" of ground if moving flat-out (unlike a non-skimmer fast vehicle which can only cover 18").

Sorry I messed up there, Airmaniac beat you to it though (on page 1) !

Airmaniac wrote:

YmeLocSquirrel256 wrote:
Yes, i suppose. thanks for the advice , see page 44 of Eldar Codex if you want to check this, for it is definitely a fast skimmer, meaning 36" flatout without star engines and can top 48" flatout with this ability. i admit that no shooting can be done, nor any embarking/disembarking of troops in that turn. still good to move at high speed across the board to capture an objective, or to get into an assault with the troops inside, the next turn.

YmeLocSquirrel256.

Fast Skimmers can move 24" flat out. Star Engines add 12". Eldar Fast Skimmers can move a maximum of 36" in a single turn.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:
What is the "imo"?

In my opinion. Roll over just about any abbreviated phrases to see what they mean! Simples!
Sorry guys about the length of my post.

YmeLocSquirrel256.

@Aetherse

Well, how the games went, a batrep will be up soon, so you can see for yourselves, they don't do the walkers justice though!

I also stated that I equipped them with scatter lasers earlier...

Round 1, destroyers killed and WDed two different ones on turn two. Then wrecked two with the monolith's particle whip on turn 6...

Round 2, reaper autocannon, heavy flamer, and 6 storm bolters...

Round 3, Two from an outflanking leman russ demolisher, and Creed's chimera. The other from a battle tank.

Anything else? Con Carne mentioned Vypers, though imo Wave Serpents are more worth their points value, considering the fact that the Vyper isn't an APC, unlike the Wave Serpent, the Wave Serpent has a main, powerful twin linked weapon, and after all they can both travel just as fast in the movement phase. Sorry if i got anything wrong here again, a friend has borrowed my codex for the week, and I am having to think off the top of my head relevant wargear, and points costs etc.

I think I'm slowly turning insane reading this, but that's nothing new, so...onwards!

You should agree, that if you roll for Wraithsight and get a 1, not being able to use 10 wraithguard with an AP2 Assault 1 weapon is quite a big drawback.

No, THOU. The Wraithsight rule requires that you have a psyker within 6" of the Wraithguard unit. This can be a Warlock, doesn't have to be a Spiritseer. If the Warlock belongs to the Wraithguard's unit, then I have faith that a psyker will remain within 6" of the Wraithguard at all times.

If you really want a Spiritseer, take those five Wraithguard out of the Wave Serpent and make it a unit of ten. Then you can make it a Troops choice, and now you have a hybrid list, with Guardians and Wraithguard+Farseer on the ground, and...and Fire Dragons zipping around in transports, and two Fire Prisms and a Night Spinner? I'm still not sure what list you're shooting for. What flavor of Eldar are you trying to field, Squirrel? Maybe we need to go back to basics, and figure out what you want your army to do. Half of it is the tried-and-true Mechdar approach, and another half is yearning to be Iyanden.

Con Carne mentioned Vypers, though imo Wave Serpents are more worth their points value, considering the fact that

Imagine Ellen Foley yelling "Stop right there!" ('Paradise By the Dashboard Light', by Meat Loaf.)

Wave Serpents and Vypers have different roles on the battlefield. They can both travel the same distance in the movement phase, and the Wave Serpent shoots its gun better, but yet you don't use the WS to open up tanks from the side or rear armour. Before we go into comparing those two very different vehicles, stop. The Eldar's Fast Attack options are meant to fill a missing role in your army, but unless you're Saim-Hainn, you pick your Fast Attack slots last when you build your army. Right now we need to get your Troops, Heavy Support, and Elites, then HQ choices resolved. The troops you pick, and whether you field them with transports, helps us determine what the rest of your army's gonna look like. Then we worry about HQ, Elites, and Heavy Support to make your intended list a reality. What's the big idea, Squirrel?

Con Carne wrote:
No, THOU. The Wraithsight rule requires that you have a psyker within 6" of the Wraithguard unit. This can be a Warlock, doesn't have to be a Spiritseer. If the Warlock belongs to the Wraithguard's unit, then I have faith that a psyker will remain within 6" of the Wraithguard at all times.

Sorry, my bad. And to get the troops section over with, imo i would say 5 rangers, three jetbikes and 10 dire avengers (in WS)?

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:@Aetherse
I also stated that I equipped them with scatter lasers earlier...

Sorry that I didn't notice that. But you are really comparing apples to oranges with scatter lasers vs prism cannon. Also I got an impression from your post that you meant walkers died in conditions that Fire Prism wouldn't have survived. But looking at those situations I'd say that you had been better with a prism (str 6 isn't that hot against rerollable av 12). With 2 prisms you can pump twin-linked railgun shot at that monolith way out of it's range and what is str 6 going to do against russes?

Also full squad of walkers is almost always the same price or more expensive than a prism. I have nothing against WWs but when it is pitted against prism and falcon that give something as good as long range AT gun (and in Falcons case one of the best transports too) on a reasonably tough and very mobile platform I just can't see Walkers win that often, at least at the high point levels.

Aetherse wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:@Aetherse
I also stated that I equipped them with scatter lasers earlier...

Sorry that I didn't notice that. But you are really comparing apples to oranges with scatter lasers vs prism cannon. Also I got an impression from your post that you meant walkers died in conditions that Fire Prism wouldn't have survived. But looking at those situations I'd say that you had been better with a prism (str 6 isn't that hot against rerollable av 12). With 2 prisms you can pump twin-linked railgun shot at that monolith way out of it's range and what is str 6 going to do against russes?

Also full squad of walkers is almost always the same price or more expensive than a prism. I have nothing against WWs but when it is pitted against prism and falcon that give something as good as long range AT gun (and in Falcons case one of the best transports too) on a reasonably tough and very mobile platform I just can't see Walkers win that often, at least at the high point levels.

In rounds two and three, the prisms would have bitten it early. Really early.

Round one, the prism would have been more durable.

This is the selling point:

In none of the games would the prisms have killed more.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:
In rounds two and three, the prisms would have bitten it early. Really early.

Round one, the prism would have been more durable.

This is the selling point:

In none of the games would the prisms have killed more.

I hope I speak of right tourney report but I checked http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/298889.page . I fail to see how the CSM in round 2 would have been able to pop 2 prisms early with just 1 unit of 2 Obliterators and 1 blastmaster shot. Also in my opinion prism cannon blasts would have been way more effective at killing termies and so I can't really find support to your claims in scenario 2.

Scenario 3 isn't that unfriendly either because there is still only 1 valkyrie and 2 lascannons (now they are bs 3 too). I wouldn't really say that 12 bs 3 scatter lasers are more killy against semi blob IG than two bs 4 str 5 large blasts. Also those leman russes were probably a real pain to fight with just 2 lances? I would understand your claim if there were vendettas and more lascannons but against hybrid list without meltas and mainly flamers and str 6 fists? No really threathening.

I would probably alter that list and switch the vypers and one walker squad for 2 prisms and maybe give the scatter laser squad eml so they could do some damage on av 13 and 14 when outflanking (I'd really want to have more troops too but list critque isn't the point in this thread).

Yes, and I will ignore the fact that you have critiqued a list that I have won two different tournaments with, at different locations, against different people; first place never-the-less! (Out of two 1,500 tournaments...)

In round two I could have either lost:

1 warwalker

1 fire prism

I would not have killed more terminators, seeing as if I had any blast weapons, he would have spread out so I could only cover one with the template.

Ok, I could have either covered seven to eight with the large blast, with a S5 (Non-instant death attack) or a statistical 10 S6 (instant death) wounds, hmm?

So, I am going to go ahead and ignore the off-topic useless army list critique.

Back to the topic, what do you think about

5 rangers, three jetbikes and 10 dire avengers (in WS)?

To save time, should I just replace the two units of Guardians I originally suggested with these and end this thread?

HQ:

1 Farseer w/Fortune
1 Autarch? (Bear in mind I took 5 wounds off a Trygon Prime (6 wounds) in 1 turn with one of these and it's fusion gun. He was on a jetbike w/ a Laser lance as well (which I never use))

Elites:

5 Fire Dragons w/Exarch w/Firepike
5 Wraithguard w/Warlock w/Spiritseer upgrade
Harlequins? (as wuestenfux pointed out earlier, needs more discussion)


APCs:

1 Wave Serpent (imo w/ twin-linked Eldar ML, shuriken cannon upgrade, vectored engines, and star engines)

Troops:

10 Guardians (imo w/ Eldar ML)
10 Guardians (imo w/ Eldar ML)

Fast Attack:

Vyper? (Definitely needs discussing)

Heavy Support

2 Fire Prisms w/ shuriken cannon upgrade, vectored engines, and star engines imo.
1 Night Spinner w/ shuriken cannon upgrade, vectored engines, and star engines imo.

Well, Prisms and Spinners should shoot all the time. For this, they should not move over 12''.
If so, vectored engines are redundant, dito for star engines.

Rangers should always be upgraded to Pathfinders.

In your list, I'd consider a full unit of WG counting as troops.

You were very lucky with your Autarch. I'd consider her only in a mech list, when she can bolster reserve rolls, or on a jetbike in a Saim Hann list.

Wuestenfex is right about the Prisms/Spinners, and the rangers.

Autarch is very vulnerable on his own - any S6 wound = ID. For example, when you assaulted a trygon (assuming it had a full 6 wounds left) you needed to hit/wound with the fusion gun (likely enough) then hit/wound with 5 of 6 attacks, 4+ and 4+, so you were insanely lucky. And being S6, if the trygon has 1W left it is very likely to squash the autarch. Obviously that's an extreme example, a trygon is a 200 pt unit. But if an autarch doesn't wipe his target out in 1 turn, he will lose.

I still wonder where the Jetarch's optimum placement is. Does he belong with Guardian Jetbikes, with a squad of Jetlocks, or with Shining Spears? I find it a giggle to put him with some Guardian Jetbikes, and on turn 5, have him race out and eat a SM combat squad or similar helpless infantry trying to claim an objective, or just go for a vehicle, while the other guys go to the same objective.

If he were with Shining Spears/Jet Council, naturally I'd want a Farseer on a bike in that same squad, with Fortune + Whatever. If you're investing that many points into St6 melee, may as well add a 200 point Farseer to protect it all

I'd personally argue jetarch's to be good with guardian jetbikes. He can provide some valuable hitting power to an otherwise weak unit. If you have some tank-popping, meq-killing lunatic in a unit then they can no-longer be ignored. However, I argue jetlocks and shining spears to be capable enough as it is, a star-lance exarch can fulfil the role of the autarch whilst jetlocks hardly struggle for hitting power.

I'd personally say that War Walkers, Wraithlords, Night Spinners and Fire Prisms are all good. I'd argue that over-all wraithlords and prisms are best, but Warwalkers and night spinners can also do very well but IMHO are more of a niche/specialist unit than lords/prisms. It's not to say that they're no good, but I'd give a wraithlord and fire prism priority first then add a war walker or night spinner on top of either 2x Wratihlord or 2x Fire Prism rather than rely solely on the war walker or night spinner.

In regards to the mention of vypers, I'd say that these are very poor. Being too expensive, fragile and lacking in BS to be worth taking, particularly with better units available elsewhere in the army.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, Prisms and Spinners should shoot all the time. For this, they should not move over 12''.
If so, vectored engines are redundant, dito for star engines.

Rangers should always be upgraded to Pathfinders.

In your list, I'd consider a full unit of WG counting as troops.

You were very lucky with your Autarch. I'd consider her only in a mech list, when she can bolster reserve rolls, or on a jetbike in a Saim Hann list.

HAHA! The first post by Wuestenfux that I've ever seen without a '' at the end! RESULT! I have been looking for this for a while!

Pretty much every game I've faced War Walkers in, they take out a Rhino-equivalent...then die; and while getting multiple "Vehicle destroyed" results on the same Rhino is amusing, it's not good economy of force (240 pts vs 35?). They're really easy to focus-fire assuming your army is up to date shooting-wise, partially because of their height, armor or lack thereof, etc...

They are more set for autarch armies it would seem, as part of a stunlock alphastrike. This doesn't color me with much confidence :/

MagicJuggler wrote:Pretty much every game I've faced War Walkers in, they take out a Rhino-equivalent...then die; and while getting multiple "Vehicle destroyed" results on the same Rhino is amusing, it's not good economy of force (240 pts vs 35?). They're really easy to focus-fire assuming your army is up to date shooting-wise, partially because of their height, armor or lack thereof, etc...

They are more set for autarch armies it would seem, as part of a stunlock alphastrike. This doesn't color me with much confidence :/

Then he is not using them like he should!

Con Carne wrote:I still wonder where the Jetarch's optimum placement is. Does he belong with Guardian Jetbikes, with a squad of Jetlocks, or with Shining Spears? I find it a giggle to put him with some Guardian Jetbikes, and on turn 5, have him race out and eat a SM combat squad or similar helpless infantry trying to claim an objective, or just go for a vehicle, while the other guys go to the same objective.

If he were with Shining Spears/Jet Council, naturally I'd want a Farseer on a bike in that same squad, with Fortune + Whatever. If you're investing that many points into St6 melee, may as well add a 200 point Farseer to protect it all

Well, a Jetarch with reaper launcher attached to a GDJ squadron (with shuricannons) is a possible choice.
However, I'd opt for a more offensive setup attaching her to a unit of SS or Jetlocks fortuned by an accompanying Jetseer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HAHA! The first post by Wuestenfux that I've ever seen without a '' at the end! RESULT! I have been looking for this for a while!

Damn.

MagicJuggler wrote:Pretty much every game I've faced War Walkers in, they take out a Rhino-equivalent...then die; and while getting multiple "Vehicle destroyed" results on the same Rhino is amusing, it's not good economy of force (240 pts vs 35?). They're really easy to focus-fire assuming your army is up to date shooting-wise, partially because of their height, armor or lack thereof, etc...

They are more set for autarch armies it would seem, as part of a stunlock alphastrike. This doesn't color me with much confidence :/

What gear will make a squad of WW 240 points?

I run 3 WW w/ S. lasers as a staple of most of my foot-dar lists. 180 points for a unit that can drop 24 S6 shots, and outflank if needed. Every other important squad in my army, is probably going to cost just as much, if not more. If I want to secure the WWs place on the board, I can spend 30 more points, stick the WW in cover, and fortune them for a turn or two. Combined with Doom, that squad of EML WWs is going to cause serious damage to most infantry on the board.

The main problem with WW is not their fragility, so much as it is their use of a HS slot. They could be a fantastic unit if they were simply moved into the fast attack section. They aren't terrible now, you just need to be careful with them; same with pretty much any Eldar unit, nothing new here.

Well, in small point games, 1500 pts or less, I take 3 WW's with shuricannons, 120 pts.
Cheap and effective, and if it goes down, who cares.

If WW would be moved into fast attack it would make them far more useful. Right now the eldar HS chocies are THE hard part about building an army list, because there are too many good choices. While for fast attack its more a matter of do we bother to take something there?

And small fast light walkers as a FA choice, its not as if there isnt precedent for that if we look to the IG codex. With a new HS (nightspunner) it would make a LOT of sense to move the WW to FA.



Sliggoth