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Here's something that's just occured to me.

According to the Wipeout! rule, if at the end of any standard mission, you have wiped out your opponent, you win the game regardless of any other victory conditions.

Which means that RAW, if the last two models in the game - one on each side - kill each other simultaneously, both players win.

Which means it's perfectly possible to have a game with two winners and no losers (and no drawers either) - and not just in the heartwarming "isn't it nice when everyone's nice" sense.

Just thought it might be nice to point this out and look at the logical conclusions.

For example, if a tournament was played with the standard missions, and it had a basic scoring system of "Losses are worth 0 pts, draws 1 pt, and wins 3 pts", would this mean that - by the letter of the rules - both players would walk away with 3 points? After all, they both won...

Aelyn wrote:Here's something that's just occured to me.

According to the Wipeout! rule, if at the end of any standard mission, you have wiped out your opponent, you win the game regardless of any other victory conditions.

Which means that RAW, if the last two models in the game - one on each side - kill each other simultaneously, both players win.

Which means it's perfectly possible to have a game with two winners and no losers (and no drawers either) - and not just in the heartwarming "isn't it nice when everyone's nice" sense.

Just thought it might be nice to point this out and look at the logical conclusions.

For example, if a tournament was played with the standard missions, and it had a basic scoring system of "Losses are worth 0 pts, draws 1 pt, and wins 3 pts", would this mean that - by the letter of the rules - both players would walk away with 3 points? After all, they both won...

BTW, if anyone says that that is impossible, I'm just going to say "Gets Hot!".

Klawz wrote:

Aelyn wrote:Here's something that's just occured to me.

According to the Wipeout! rule, if at the end of any standard mission, you have wiped out your opponent, you win the game regardless of any other victory conditions.

Which means that RAW, if the last two models in the game - one on each side - kill each other simultaneously, both players win.

Which means it's perfectly possible to have a game with two winners and no losers (and no drawers either) - and not just in the heartwarming "isn't it nice when everyone's nice" sense.

Just thought it might be nice to point this out and look at the logical conclusions.

For example, if a tournament was played with the standard missions, and it had a basic scoring system of "Losses are worth 0 pts, draws 1 pt, and wins 3 pts", would this mean that - by the letter of the rules - both players would walk away with 3 points? After all, they both won...

BTW, if anyone says that that is impossible, I'm just going to say "Gets Hot!".

Or Close Combat and both are the same I?

And yes, you are right, if there is a Double KO, it ends in a draw.

Klawz wrote:BTW, if anyone says that that is impossible, I'm just going to say "Gets Hot!".

Why go with "Get's Hot!" when a powerfist wielding UltraSmurf Sgt. and a powerklaw using Ork Nob doing the Rocky 3 freeze frame ending is so much more epic!

Klawz wrote:

Aelyn wrote:Here's something that's just occured to me.

According to the Wipeout! rule, if at the end of any standard mission, you have wiped out your opponent, you win the game regardless of any other victory conditions.

Which means that RAW, if the last two models in the game - one on each side - kill each other simultaneously, both players win.

Which means it's perfectly possible to have a game with two winners and no losers (and no drawers either) - and not just in the heartwarming "isn't it nice when everyone's nice" sense.

Just thought it might be nice to point this out and look at the logical conclusions.

For example, if a tournament was played with the standard missions, and it had a basic scoring system of "Losses are worth 0 pts, draws 1 pt, and wins 3 pts", would this mean that - by the letter of the rules - both players would walk away with 3 points? After all, they both won...

BTW, if anyone says that that is impossible, I'm just going to say "Gets Hot!".

Or CC with both models at the same initiative!

EDIT:Ninja'd twice! Nice!

Aelyn wrote:For example, if a tournament was played with the standard missions, and it had a basic scoring system of "Losses are worth 0 pts, draws 1 pt, and wins 3 pts", would this mean that - by the letter of the rules - both players would walk away with 3 points? After all, they both won...

Both players winning is pretty much the definition of a draw.

Klawz wrote:BTW, if anyone says that that is impossible, I'm just going to say "Gets Hot!".

Or just two models with equal Initiative fighting in close combat.

Regardless of the outcome of any game...


Everyone is a winner....

Tsannik wrote:Regardless of the outcome of any game...


Everyone is a winner....

But that implies that everyone is also the loser!

@OP. If i were the TO, i would call it a draw.

Mvh.

Wait wouldnt then you see how many points worth you destroyed in the game? If thats the case, usually someone has more points then the other, which would mean that person would lose?

KingCracker wrote:Wait wouldnt then you see how many points worth you destroyed in the game? If thats the case, usually someone has more points then the other, which would mean that person would lose?

If both players have wiped each other out... then they have wiped each other out, so they should have the same number of VP!

In standard missions, obviously there's no models left to hold objectives, so that's out. What about kill points for annihilation? Most lists vary in kill points; would the "winner" be the one who claimed the most kill points, or would the Wipeout! rule overturn that?

Gwar! wrote:

KingCracker wrote:Wait wouldnt then you see how many points worth you destroyed in the game? If thats the case, usually someone has more points then the other, which would mean that person would lose?

If both players have wiped each other out... then they have wiped each other out, so they should have the same number of VP!

What about KP?

KingCracker wrote:Wait wouldnt then you see how many points worth you destroyed in the game?

Nope. Aside from the fact that VP's are gone from the standard missions this edition, you are granted an automatic win by wiping out your opponent, as was mentioned in the first post.

Monster Rain wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

KingCracker wrote:Wait wouldnt then you see how many points worth you destroyed in the game? If thats the case, usually someone has more points then the other, which would mean that person would lose?

If both players have wiped each other out... then they have wiped each other out, so they should have the same number of VP!

What about KP?

KP doesn't matter, since both players have won regardless of victory conditions. So it's a draw, no matter what the KP totals are.

Even better - assaulting a vehicle. It explodes and takes out the assaulting unit.

Closest I gotten was a match with my Orks vs. Black Templar. It was a 2000 point game. When the game ended I picked up a Nob with one Ork boy and he picked up a immobilized Land Raider Crusader and a weaponless drop pod. Real blood bath

VP still apply and can be used in the case of a draw for a "Morale Victory"

and it is quite common for opponents having different points amounts

eg: 2000pt battle

IG army @ 1997pts
vs.
Ork army @ 1999pts

the IG player would win in the smallest of Morale Victories

So what's so bad about saying both sides won? It isn't the same as a draw(a draw is a standoff), and it is certainly possible for both sides to lose (ie if neither side is able to claim a critical objective). If the RAW says both sides won (as in 2 CC squads annihilating each other in CC due to equal initiative) then shake the opponent's hand and give credit where it is due!

So says Solorg. Shalom.

you couldn't use VPs as they would both have the same number. you are playing with the same sized armies, arn't you?



KPs could be used, but Wipeout would make a draw a conclusion.


RAW: the game breaks as the rules don't cover this.

Why does it break? What's wrong with it being a draw?

Cause you only draw before a duel.. and when you duel someone's just gotta go..

Naw I like the freeze frame of the powerfist / power klaw. Thats just epic.

Just a single Lictor remaining, I assaulted the last enemy squad, a cowardly bunch of ratling snipers in a crow's nest above an old barn, about 20 foot above the battle field. Striking first, the lictor killed three, sending their bodies tumbling to the ground far below. Trapped like animals, the remaining snipers went berserk and actually managed to slay the beast, clubbing him to death with their rifle butts. Their cries of victory, however, quickly turned to alarm as the lictor's acid blood began to dissolve away one of the support struts of their perch.

4th edition acid blood had a chance to put a wound on the enemy in BtB if the owner was wounded. These heroic rodents managed to overwhelm a close combat monster and kill themselves in the process. We decided the whole building had come down after they failed their saving throws.

Grey Templar wrote:RAW: the game breaks as the rules don't cover this.

I don't want to break the YMDC rules and post the definition of "Draw" but let's just say that the two players having the same result pretty much fits it perfectly.

In a tournament setting, it should probably be counted as a "win" for both players, not a draw, as both have satisfied "win" victory conditions.

The scenario says you "win" if you wipe out all of the enemy's units.

The only problem with that is collusion- there's an incentive for both players to "win" at the same time.

Further, in a 3-round tournament, you really need to get wins and losses to break up the scores amongst the field.

For a tourney or league purposes I would definitely have to award each player a win, since the wipe out rule is: "Regardless of the victory conditions, if at the end of any standard mission your enemy has no units left on the table, you win the game!"

So as long as this condition is met, both players can quite obviously win.

Now collusion could be a problem, perhaps in a game that decides the rankings in the last round...but as a TO I tend to actually watch those games so any obvious collusion shouldnt be a problem. Now if it comes down to one squad each at the end where the two players try and go for a double win, the dice gods can easily decide otherwise.


Sliggoth

Monster Rain wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:RAW: the game breaks as the rules don't cover this.

I don't want to break the YMDC rules and post the definition of "Draw" but let's just say that the two players having the same result pretty much fits it perfectly.

the reason i say the game breaks, RAW anyway, is that the rules don't cover the situation of both players fulfilling a victory requirement at the same time.

i personally would award a draw.


i wouldn't award a win as what happened is closer to the both lost. in a military situation if both sides forces are wiped out then both actually would have lost.


Double loss = draw.

double win can't really happen.

But both armies have fulfilled the win criteria - there is no lose criteria.

Interesting question, and I've never experienced it myself. My immediate response is that RAW, both players have fulfilled the win conditions, therefor they both win.

If I were TO and this match was the final, I would have no option but to call a rematch, or shell out for two first place prizes.

+1 to Grey Templar and the like minded. Everybody wins is the same as a draw.

If it was the final either replay or split the prize.