Astartes and Espionage

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**Melissia**

Moved from another thread, so it doesn't get dragged off topic.

Melissia wrote:Don't mind me. I just tend to react poorly to Marine fanboys saying "my faction can do everything better than everyone else". No, they can't

Arbites spend their entire lives investigating and rooting out criminals and cultists, it's their job. They aren't warriors per se, though they can certain put up a damned good fight as far as humans go; rather, what they are is a combination of the FBI, CSI, and Judge Dredd. Which is probably part of the reason why I like them, as Judge Dredd is awesome (Despite the movie's attempt at ruining him).

Marines spend their entire time training for battle, or actually in battle. In the arena of battle, with their quick decapitating strikes, it can be argued that they have very few peers. Though I would argue that the Guard is much better at a stand up fight, if only because they don't care about casualties, whereas the loss of ten Marines is a pretty big loss to the chapter in comparison to the loss of a few thousand Guardsmen.

The smart authors know this and depict Marines doing what they do best, dropping in on an important location, killing everything that moves, and then leaving for the next objective before a reprisal can be launched. The gakky ones depict them doing other things which they want to claim is heroic, but doesn't really make sense, like half a squad trying to hold the line against a few thousand Orks. Which really should end up with a lot of dead Orks, this is true, but no surviving Marines. Orks are not pushovers.

Okay, sorry. Done ranting.

Grey Templar wrote:Espionage doesn't mean hiding in plain sight.

marines have senses bordering on Animalistic. if they can find a place they won't be visable then they can do it.

they can hear very well, they could eavesdrop on a conversation and be accross the street.

Not all Subtrafuge missions will be in populated areas. they will scout things out if there arn't any scout squads avaliable.

there are Humans in some portions of the Galaxy that do reach Astasrtes size. in the Ravenor omnibus there are people who are from a certain planet who reach the same height as a Space Marine, and thats just the women.

Yes, but those are a tiny minority of the Imperium's population I would reckon. Marines, after all, are supposed to be massive compared to humans, with vastly improved musculature and bone structure.

And anything Marines can do in the espionage field, Arbites can probably do better; that's what they're trained to do, every day of their lives, including artificially extended lives in the case of higher ranking and more famous Arbites. They hone their talents to preternatural levels because if they didn't the Imperium would fall apart under the weight of its own corruption from within. Investigation, interrogation, undercover work, gathering connections and informants, infiltrating cults and gangs, and so on are just what the Arbites do, and overall they do it best out of the various human factions. Including the Astartes.

**Nitros14**

If a 12 foot tall Tyranid monstrosity with six arms and feeder tendrils and massive scything talons can infiltrate human cities and military bases (done many times in the stories in Codex: Tyranids) I imagine an 8 foot tall Space Marine that at least looks humanish could manage it. Being big doesn't mean they're bad at moving quietly.

The Alpha Legion's entire premise and claim to uniqueness is that they're stealth and infiltration experts who use their many cult networks to go where a Space Marine might get noticed. Or they just pretend to be loyalists.

I mean hate the fluff if you want but it still exists, Alpha Legion marines are shown to be incredibly skilled stealth specialists in not just Black Library books but throughout the Chaos Space Marine codices.

I can't think of a Loyalist Chapter that has stealth experts though, most of them seem to think it would be dishonourable or some crap about being "Not being a subtle instrument of the Emperor".

Not saying they're better at stealth than any other stealth specialist, but there are certainly Marines in existence dedicated to it.

**Melissia**

Yes, some fluff is idiotic and poorly written, isn't it?

Supposedly, the Raven Guard are stealth experts (or at least, that's what someone told me *shrug*). But this isn't about stealth, it's about espionage, which is more than just sneaking around.

**Mistress of minis**

Space marines also can live for hundreds of years- that much experience could make them more diverse than just guys with bolters.

Espionage, is a broad endeavor that doesnt always require infiltration amongst an indigenous population.

Arbites, and Inquisitors(and some henchmen) would be more suited for the infiltration and investigation side of it. Whereas a SM could be more adept at military surveillance and observation especially since they have heightened senses compared to a unaugmented human.

**Nitros14**

Melissia wrote:Yes, some fluff is idiotic and poorly written, isn't it?

Supposedly, the Raven Guard are stealth experts. But this isn't about stealth, it's about espionage, which is more than just sneaking around.

Like I say, hate the fluff if you want

I won't comment on how much sense it makes. A lot of stuff in 40k makes less than total sense.

As for specifically SPYING and mixing in with populations (if I'm getting what you mean by espionage correctly). The Imperium already has institutions much better suited for spying than Space Marines. And Chaos Marines either have cult networks or can ask their great pal Lord Tzeentch to show them a vision of what they want to know. So you have a point.

Space Marine talents are a bit misapplied on spying, but on the battlefield or when they need to infiltrate a position or assassinate someone they've been shown to be willing and capable.

**Melissia**

Oh yes, in those very limited (and much less common) situations, they're certainly capable. But then the Inquisition has other tools that are even better than Marines at doing those, such as assassins and the Ordo Assassinorum operatives.

**Nitros14**

Melissia wrote:Oh yes, in those very limited (and much less common) situations, they're certainly capable. But then the Inquisition has other tools that are even better than Marines at doing those, such as assassins and the Ordo Assassinorum operatives.

Yeah I'll agree to that.

Honestly what I see the Alpha Legion fluff is there's not very many of them so it's not like there's a bunch of Alpha Legion SPACE MARINE operatives infiltrating a population or organization.

More like one, single, Alpha Legion Marine might run an entire cult network of spies and saboteurs on a planet made up of normal humans. From a hidden headquarters where he won't exactly be out and about going, 'Hey dudes I'm a loyalist Marine trust me'.

That's what the Alpha Legion's Hydra symbol is for. All their Marines are trained to operate without a central command structure so when one 'head' is cut off the others carry on with no loss of purpose. So they're a diffuse organization. Not so much doing the espionage themselves and getting their hands dirty but acting as spymasters and running cult networks to weaken the Imperium from within. They're very... odd for Space Marines. They don't actually do much fighting to this day.

**Kanluwen**

Melissia wrote:Yes, some fluff is idiotic and poorly written, isn't it?

Supposedly, the Raven Guard are stealth experts (or at least, that's what someone told me *shrug*). But this isn't about stealth, it's about espionage, which is more than just sneaking around.

Raven Guard are insurgency experts, specializing more in stealth and hit and run than the average Astartes Chapters.

Their Scout Company consists, much like the Dark Angels and their Successors, of a larger than average amount of full Battle-Brothers who have foregone full on Tactical/Assault squads to operate as intelligence assets for the Raven Guard.

IA8 details the activity of one of their Scout teams pretty interestingly.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, for the Alpha Legion...nobody really knows what they're up to.

Their strikes never really seem to do too much damage, and always seem to be more aimed towards weakening the populace--but giving a chance for the populace to bounce back with a more fervent belief in the Imperium of Man than before.

**thegrav**

S.T.E.A.L.T.H B.O.M.B.E.R. Nuff Said.

(BTW the point I am making is that said aircraft is much bigger than a SM, and is used in Espionage.)

**Kanluwen**

Actually, the B-2 "Spirit" isn't used in "espionage".

It's a bomber. You don't "bomb" a target with cameras.

You're thinking of this:

**Nitros14**

Kanluwen wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, for the Alpha Legion...nobody really knows what they're up to.

Their strikes never really seem to do too much damage, and always seem to be more aimed towards weakening the populace--but giving a chance for the populace to bounce back with a more fervent belief in the Imperium of Man than before.

Let me get out my old 3rd edition codex.

The Alpha Legion was the last of the founding chapters and from its inception was determined to prove its worth relative to the older Legions. Their Primarch, Alpharius, perpetuated this rivalry and encouraged self-reliance, discipline and innovative tactics in his Legion. The Alpha Legion respected strength and despised the weak.

Although they joined the Heresy the Alpha Legion stayed seperate from the other traitor legions and fought its own campaign. Since the heresy they have remained independent, setting up their multitude of cult networks and pursuing seperate objectives.

Tactically the Alpha Legion believes in attacking from several different directions at once. This requires careful planning and skillful infiltration. Extensive use of corrupt spies and informants is made to weaken the enemy's resolve before any decisive move is made. Amongst the Traitor Legions the Alpha Legion makes the most extensive use of cultist troops and traitor Guard. As they tend to operate as raiders and infiltrators deep within the Imperium they need local support to bolster their numbers. Considerable effort is made to spread propaganda to incite revolt and sabotage. Once the Alpha Legion is committed to battle things tend to move very quickly as the Alpha Legion attaches great importance to its field commanders using their own initiative to outwit the enemy as this magnifies the advantage that Space Marines have over conventional troops.

Many Alpha Legion operations are planned to encourage and support cultist activity, Cultists are trained to be skilled combatants who combined stealth and espionage with close combat. The Alpha Legion may therefore make use of the Cultist army list entry below as a Troops Selection on the force organisation chart.

The Alpha Legion cannot normally rely on Daemons remaining stable long enough to be useful due to their distance from the Eye of Terror but when they have secured the belief of Chaos cults on a world they will gladly make use of Daemonic Incursions to add to the variety of their attacks.

Alpha Legionaires can only bear the Mark of Chaos Undivided and their Veterans are renowned across the galaxy for their infiltration skills.

**Grey Templar**

good stuff there

i think that Melissa is right in that marines don't do infiltrating work, but she has a very narrow definition, not that thats bad mind you, of what Infiltrating is.

she says a Space marine isn't going to go and act as a Double agent acting in plain sight. and this is true.

a SM will however go and sit in the alley outside a window and use his superior hearing to listen in on a conversation.

or he will hid in some bushes and watch an enemy camp for a few hours gathering intellegence. this is what will happen most often.

it is mention many times in the fluff how quiet a marine can be when he wants to be. normal Humans are often unerved by the ability of something so massive to move so quickely and quietly.

if you are able to hear a pin drop on the otherside of a Courtyard then you will definitly be able to hear sounds from your own movements and can adjust them to become silent.

**Kanluwen**

@Nitros:
Read "Legion" by Dan Abnett. It gives a fantastic insight into the reason why the Alpha Legion went "traitor".

**Carlovonsexron**

I'd also say read about the Adeptus Custodes- they arnt space marines persay (in fact, they are regarded as slightly better - and that's without all the fancy equipment!) But they methods of investigation and information gathering second to none - for they guard the Immortal Emperor of Mankind himself...

One of the technologies they utilize is a 'concealment field'/'runes of concealment' to distort their size and appearance some what. Though the stories never go into how easy one of these fields might be to detect, because of the delicate nature involving the suspected activities of a leader of one of the Nations of Earth (Bound by treaty into the Emperors United Terra) who is suspected of passing information along to Horus during the heresy...

I'd suspect his own defenses against espionage would be pretty up to snuff

**reds8n**

Grey Templar wrote:

a SM will however go and sit in the alley outside a window and use his superior hearing to listen in on a conversation.

or he will hid in some bushes and watch an enemy camp for a few hours gathering intellegence. this is what will happen most often.

it is mention many times in the fluff how quiet a marine can be when he wants to be. normal Humans are often unerved by the ability of something so massive to move so quickely and quietly.

if you are able to hear a pin drop on the otherside of a Courtyard then you will definitly be able to hear sounds from your own movements and can adjust them to become silent.

Indeed. Plus their ability to kill you, eat your brain and then absorb all your memories and knowledge of a location, passwords, numbers of troops etc etc is quite handy as well.

**Emperors Faithful**

Power Armour. Is not. Silent. Scouts are more believable. Not an Astartes.

(BTW the point I am making is that said aircraft is much bigger than a SM, and is used in Espionage.)

*facepalm* Fail is just...Fail. It really is.

**reds8n**

Emperors Faithful wrote:Power Armour. Is not. Silent.

Normally, it can be silent, The Ravenguard especially excel in this regard --cf "Chapter's Due".

**Chongara**

Grey Templar wrote:good stuff there

i think that Melissa is right in that marines don't do infiltrating work, but she has a very narrow definition, not that thats bad mind you, of what Infiltrating is.

she says a Space marine isn't going to go and act as a Double agent acting in plain sight. and this is true.

a SM will however go and sit in the alley outside a window and use his superior hearing to listen in on a conversation.

or he will hid in some bushes and watch an enemy camp for a few hours gathering intellegence. this is what will happen most often.

it is mention many times in the fluff how quiet a marine can be when he wants to be. normal Humans are often unerved by the ability of something so massive to move so quickely and quietly.

EDIT: (Disclaimer: I'm far from an expert on fluff, most of what I know comes from a few a Codices and reading the DH books. So what's here are just my impressions based my admittedly limited understanding of the imperium)

if you are able to hear a pin drop on the otherside of a Courtyard then you will definitly be able to hear sounds from your own movements and can adjust them to become silent.

I'm not quite sure I buy this. The Imperium probably isn't about to throw any resources at petty criminals, much less Space Marine level resources and they strike me as the only sort who do things openly enough that simple observation would be effective.

The Imperium isn't exactly friendly or lenient place. If you're doing anything that might even close to earning the attention of the higher-ups you're careful, paranoid, skillful, intelligent and have access to tremendous resources. If not you would have wound up as IG rations long before you got deep enough into anything to draw that kind of heat. You're certainly not doing things in any fashion that having a listen by a courtyard window would reveal any meaningful information. You're deep underground (figuratively, if not literally), well protected by barriers both physical and political. If you're behind a heresy that involves ten million people only about 10 of them have ever seen you and of them you vaporized 5 on the spot, of the remaining 5 only 3 even understood the secret code you were miming in.

If you're important enough that the Space Marines would potentially be sent in to deal with you, you're buried so far down that it's really going to take several hundred operatives digging deep into the organization for years to get at you. If you're important enough that Space Marines would potentially be sent in to deal with you, and you're not... they just send in the Space Marines to deal with you the old fashion way.

**Greenmeany**

Chongara is 100% right why waste ultimate weapon on petty criminals its a waste of the immortal emprahs gift!

Plus it seems that some people are arguing about two different types of surveillance which are battlefield surveillance and surveillance on the civilian population as if being able to do one means you can do the other.

This topic is giving me this humorous picture of an 8ft Super human in power armour sat on a park bench with a brief case asking passers by "Do you have the Dossier?"....

**Emperors Faithful**

reds8n wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:Power Armour. Is not. Silent.

Normally, it can be silent, The Ravenguard especially excel in this regard --cf "Chapter's Due".

There is "able to mobilise a force/battalion/squad without alerting the enemy of your actions" silent, and there is "Freaking Giant Ninja Breaking through walls with mufflers" silent. That said I haven't read the book, so do the Ravenguard actually do in Chapter's Due?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
^
what. I missed a what in that sentence.

**reds8n**

They are shown to be quite capable of moving up to engage astartes and/or scouts unheard and even infiltrate their way into the "Black Basilica" ( chaos Capitol Imperilius more or less). When they scout ahead of Ventris and his honour guard even they lose track of them and are unable to follow or see them.

I would also point out the special modifications made to the Alpha Legion armour in "Legion" which came equipped with all manner of counter surveilance and electronic baffles so they could simply walk through sensors and alarms without triggering them.

I think generally power armour is too noisy to be very stealthy, there are however still variants or knowledge in the galaxy that enables it to be more stealthy. Even if much of this is "lost" or not really understood.

**helgrenze**

Hmm a Space marine Chapter has 1000 marines.... You really think that any chapter is going to send in a few marines to act like James Bond?
Especially since there are Arbites and Inquisitor that are actually trained for that mission?
Hmm or send a squad into a system governors palace to assassinate him for heresy when there are Assassinorum operatives specifically trained to do just that and make it look like a natural death?

Space Marines MAY be capable of some of this but they are a much more blunt instrument.
They fulfill the role of hammer to the Guards anvil.
Arbites are a knife and assassins are a scalpel.

Each tool of the Imperium has its uses and jobs. You don't use a hammer in place of a scalpel.

**reds8n**

helgrenze wrote:Hmm a Space marine Chapter has 1000 marines.... You really think that any chapter is going to send in a few marines to act like James Bond?

If they needed to, if other options weren't available to them.
Clearly this would vary from chapter to chapter -- don't see the Fleshtearers or Black Templars doing this but if they had to.. or worked closely with the Inquisition on a regular basis like the Red Scorpions do, then it's not beyond the realm of possibility.

Big universe etc etc

There's a short story where a White Scar marine is sent to infiltrate Huron's Corsairs in ...hmm... the "Into the Maelstrom" collection IIRC

**Kilkrazy**

There's covert movement and there's covert movement.

I can see an SM infiltrating a Chaos Cathedral (can of black spray paint and an economy bucket of spikes would help...)

I can't see an SM infiltrating the Inokashira Line express to Shibuya during the rush hour, and snooping on civil servants' reading matter over their shoulders.

**Waaagh_Gonads**

helgrenze wrote:Each tool of the Imperium has its uses and jobs. You don't use a hammer in place of a scalpel.

We don't but the Imperium will....

Whilst I find it hard to imagine SMs mixing james Bond like with members of an enemy, I can see small groups (scouts) covertly observing and moving in to gain intelligence. Just like special forces do today.

**reds8n**

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:
Whilst I find it hard to imagine SMs mixing james Bond like with members of an enemy,.

Indeed. There's a wonderful scene in the Iron Snakes book when the marines are forced to attend a welcome/honorific drinks reception. Of course they don't do "small talk" and the like so they just stand there, immobile, in their armour like immense statues.

**Shaman**

Greenmeany wrote:Chongara is 100% right why waste ultimate weapon on petty criminals its a waste of the immortal emprahs gift!

Plus it seems that some people are arguing about two different types of surveillance which are battlefield surveillance and surveillance on the civilian population as if being able to do one means you can do the other.

This topic is giving me this humorous picture of an 8ft Super human in power armour sat on a park bench with a brief case asking passers by "Do you have the Dossier?"....

Couldn't help myself.

**MeanGreenStompa**

****In hushed whisper he spoke****

"I was never here, we did not have this conversations..."

***and then he departed, as he had arrived, down the alleyway***

KLUNK-HISS, KLUNK-HISS, KLUNK-HISS *trashcan overturning and being stomped flat noise* KLUNK-HISS

**Mr. Burning**

Whilst you wouldn't use an axe to do the work of a scalpel it is pretty easy to be convinced that the axe is harmless.

People will believe what they are told and they will WANT to believe that there is no threat.

Without armour an Astartes would be able to walk around in plain sight. Bulk regardless a marine could be a mutant or a gene bulked servant or worker some kind of abhuman. (In old fluff catachans are slightly abhuman hence the distorted, muscular, arms - if these freaks can wonder around the galaxy I bet an over sized human could too).

The Astartes are not the tools to be used for espionage but don't get sidetracked into thinking that they are too abnormal be hidden in plain view (without blessed power armour and holy boltguns obviously)

**Kilkrazy**

You're assuming Catachans can wander around the Galaxy unmolested.

It is more likely that on different worlds the appearance of different bodyforms will be more or less accepted depending on local social norms.

Some worlds may well be so paranoid about mutation that even Catachans would be arrested. Other worlds -- particularly on the frontiers -- would be much more blase about unusual looking people.