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I wish you all luck in this continued argument.

@gogsnik: Didn't realize you had either.

@everyone: Carry on!

Actually, an Inquisitor does start out with an army or fleet at his beck and call.

From the time they're elevated to full Inquisitor status, they're able to 'request' the secondment of Imperial Naval+Guard forces right off.

Sorry...I posted this in the wrong thread by total accident...disregard this.

Jimsolo wrote:Sorry...I posted this in the wrong thread by total accident...disregard this.

So!

You've accidentally revealed yourself, Infiltrator!!

Don't think you can get away with it now...

Your argument boils down to having an Arbites sticker on one ship and not having an Inquisition sticker on another ship. First of all, it's simply not true: the Inquisition does maintain its own ships (they're black) and troops (aside from the Chambers Militant). Not all Inquisitors go around by themselves like Eisenhorn and Ravenor. Second, it's immaterial: the chances that a Governor will disobey a Judge are much higher than him disobeying an Inquisitor--local precincts don't much factor into this kind of comparison, considering that Inquisitors can (all by themselves even) destroy a planet with a single astropathic message.

Gogsnik wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Pretty sure Arbites just take Imperial Navy vessels.

The fighting forces of the Adeptus Arbites are the Arbitrators, warriors of justice, the militant arm of the Judges. These warriors are many and well armed, capable of fighting a limited war if need be, and of transporting themselves through space in their own ships. For the Judges trust no-one they may be called upon to judge, and can find themselves fighting rebellious Warmasters of the Imperial Guard, or chasing treacherous Admirals of the Fleet. More often it is traitors amongst the planetary lords who are the Arbitrators' foes.

Codex Imperialis page 34

I stand corrected. I have a lot more respect for the arbites now (who I always thought were badass). What is codex imperialis?
Is "Execution Hour" about The Arbites? Has anyone read it? Is it good?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Gogsnik wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Pretty sure Arbites just take Imperial Navy vessels.

The fighting forces of the Adeptus Arbites are the Arbitrators, warriors of justice, the militant arm of the Judges. These warriors are many and well armed, capable of fighting a limited war if need be, and of transporting themselves through space in their own ships. For the Judges trust no-one they may be called upon to judge, and can find themselves fighting rebellious Warmasters of the Imperial Guard, or chasing treacherous Admirals of the Fleet. More often it is traitors amongst the planetary lords who are the Arbitrators' foes.

Codex Imperialis page 34

I stand corrected. I have a lot more respect for the arbites now (who I always thought were badass). What is codex imperialis?
Is "Execution Hour" about The Arbites? Has anyone read it? Is it good?

No its actually about the Navy first and foremost. But still quite a good read - I can safely recommend it to anyone even slightly intererested in Space Battles


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:Your argument boils down to having an Arbites sticker on one ship and not having an Inquisition sticker on another ship. First of all, it's simply not true: the Inquisition does maintain its own ships (they're black) and troops (aside from the Chambers Militant). Not all Inquisitors go around by themselves like Eisenhorn and Ravenor. Second, it's immaterial: the chances that a Governor will disobey a Judge are much higher than him disobeying an Inquisitor--local precincts don't much factor into this kind of comparison, considering that Inquisitors can (all by themselves even) destroy a planet with a single astropathic message.

As long as he gets that Message out. Been there already in Dark Heresy, the fethlings just took out our Inquisitor after blowing up the Astropathic Choir of the planet...Bastiches! ;-) Ah well I think we wandered off topic so far already I can't even see the shore anymore :-)

Codex Imperialis is a long out-of-date rulebook, one of the first to deal in any detail with the 40k background. It's not too reliable a source anymore although it should be pretty good for the Adeptus Arbites as no one has done much with them (Shira Calpurnia novels aside) in all these years. The most up-to-date info about Arbitrators would be found in the Dark Heresy books published by FFG but this will likely have been strongly influenced by Codex Imperialis anyhow.

Manchu wrote:Your argument boils down to having an Arbites sticker on one ship and not having an Inquisition sticker on another ship.

No it doesn't but if you're going to get silly then I'm not going to discuss the issue further with you.

Inquisitors can (all by themselves even) destroy a planet with a single astropathic message.

lol, you make it so sound so simple (also, if they have to get an Astropath to send the message and then wait for someone else to turn up to carry out the Exterminatus it isn't exactly all by themselves is it).

Didn't think it was silly. I just don't think you have made a convincing point. And there's nothing especially hard for an Inquisitor about finding an Astropath. You seem to assume that an Inquisitor would have a huge amount of trouble accessing any kind of resource. Maybe you're the one being silly?

I find your obtuseness to be silly, especially since earlier you said you knew what I had meant (that I was talking about the Adeptus Arbites as an organisation that is known to go around mob handed compared to a lone Inquisitor) but instead of arguing the point I raised decided to attack a point I had not made about the Inquisition as an organisation which had nothing to do with what I was or have subsequently been talking about.

You are misconstruing what I am saying, deliberately or otherwise. and to explain, again, what I said was, is that a single Inquisitor, can, at times, be on his own, unsupported and alone and despite their theoretical power they are, at the end of the day, just one person and in the depths of a hive, surrounded by half mad, highly dangerous underhive scum bristling with weapons, who wouldn't know an Inquisitor from asump rat, have all the authoirty in the universe ain't gonna be much good when you can just be shot and dumped in the wastes.

On the other hand, the Adeptus Arbites (feared even in the underhive to continue my example above), who have a remit that can extend all the way up to the High Lords, as with an Inquisitor, and hence my original point that they have almost as much authority as an Inquisitor because they can investigate and prosecute anybody and everybody, go around in force with the manpower and firepower to enforce their authority there and then and sometimes an Inquisitor just can't do that.

You have also put words in my mouth, saying I have said things which I have not in a deliberately provocative manner and that too I find to be silly.

Adieu.

Oh man. The thing is that I've already clarified this for you. But I can do some review for you, as wll: Comparing the entire Arbites organization against a lone Inquistor is NOT what I was doing. I have been talking about the Inquisition as an organization. In fact, a point I have made more than once is that not all Inquisitors even operate Eisenhorn-style. Sorry that this has been so frustrating for you but I don't see why you'd expect that I would just automatically agree with your dismissal of my post when you still haven't seemed to grasp it.

Eisenhorn's approach is relatively unique (or at least very uncommon), and would be considered radical by most by the book Inquisitors. The majority prefer the kick-down-the-door-while-singing-"move bitch, move out the way, move out the way bitch, move out the way" approach.

Melissia wrote:
And anything Marines can do in the espionage field, Arbites can probably do better; that's what they're trained to do, every day of their lives, including artificially extended lives in the case of higher ranking and more famous Arbites. They hone their talents to preternatural levels because if they didn't the Imperium would fall apart under the weight of its own corruption from within. Investigation, interrogation, undercover work, gathering connections and informants, infiltrating cults and gangs, and so on are just what the Arbites do, and overall they do it best out of the various human factions. Including the Astartes.

Exception: Alpha Legion. The only Space Marines with a brain.

And I don't think an 8' tall dude would cause THAT much consternation in the populace. After all, without their power armor, most people wouldn't think they are looking at a Space Marine (they are mythical warriors of legend for the average citizen), and there are plenty of mutants or biologically/cybernetically-enhanced hive gangers and the like that could probably (almost) match them in stature.

Omegus wrote:Eisenhorn's approach is relatively unique (or at least very uncommon), and would be considered radical by most by the book Inquisitors. The majority prefer the kick-down-the-door-while-singing-"move bitch, move out the way, move out the way bitch, move out the way" approach.

First of all, I see little to no evidence suggesting that Eisenhorns approach was extremely out of the ordinary. A 'shadowy' inquisitor such as himself is just as common as the 'in yor face' inquisitor that organizes witch hunts on a planet wide scale. There really is no evidence to suggest which approach is more prevalent, as only the 'in yor face' inquisitors would stand out, and there is no data on exactly how many inquisitors are operational at any given time in the 40k universe. At least I can't recall any suggestion of such data.

Secondly, a radical is defined by his beliefs and methods, but not in the way you're thinking. Even if the gutter approach was uncommon, it wouldn't be viewed as radical. Radical is closer to utilising deamonhosts or xenos technology to further the Imperial cause, and by doing so creeping ever closer to the edge of the abyss bordering on heretical.

Thirdly, "Move heretic, move out the way, move out the way heretic, move out the way".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Omegus wrote:And I don't think an 8' tall dude would cause THAT much consternation in the populace. After all, without their power armor, most people wouldn't think they are looking at a Space Marine (they are mythical warriors of legend for the average citizen), and there are plenty of mutants or biologically/cybernetically-enhanced hive gangers and the like that could probably (almost) match them in stature.

I think there was a case of this, where an exiled Imperial Fist (or some sort) ended up as a henchman for an Inquisitor, minus his armour. I think the book may have been called 'Inquisition Wars'? Regardless, although he wasn't recognised widely as a space marine by the populace he intereacted with, he was very much viewed as a freak and definitely wasn't suitable for many or most forms of infiltration/espionage/ect.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

First of all, I see little to no evidence suggesting that Eisenhorns approach was extremely out of the ordinary.

How about the book itself, where he encounters that puritan Inquisitor (whose name escapes me at the moment) who viewed Eisenhorn's methods with disdain, and indeed suspected Eisenhorn's methods as indication of radical leanings, and Eisenhorn's inner monologue confirmed that the majority of the Inquisition would agree with that Inquisitor (whose name still escapes me, dammit). And the fact that all the sneaking around and subterfuge also got a hardcore Witch Hunter on Eisenhorn's ass, and he was constantly being accused by various high-ranking members of the Inquisition of radicalism, and Eisenhorn's reclusive nature made those charges easier to stick.

And Eisenhorn's methods eventually DID lead to him being very much a radical, by any definition you may wish to apply. Not to judge the man, of course, since I agree with Ravenor's statement in the last book of the trilogy that radicalism is inevitable.

THe Puritan Inquistor was a Witch Hunter I believe, and they are far more attracted towards the notion of 'purging' entire cities than Ordo Xenos or Deamon Hunters which often seek out very small cults dealing in these very dastardly practices, whereas a Witch Hunters work is often of a more widespread nature and easier to combat through the use of force rather than guile. Furthermore, Eiserhorn was reflecting on his mission to rescue the Psyker children and, being a psyker himself, many puritan forces were very much against him. He said his methods meant he was rarely around to defend himself or his actions from his accusers, not that his approach was extremely rare.

That said, the idea of classing the 'typical' Inquisitor is ridiculous. Due to their very nature they are vastly independant as are thier methods. The only thing every inquisitor will agree on is that heresy is bad. And even then, some inquisitors will say "Yes of course, but what kind of heresy are we talking about here?"

Voke was Ordo Xenos, same as Eisenhorn.

And the Witch Hunter wasn't even an Inquisitor.

Witch Finder* Tantalid.

He was an Ecclesiarchal operative, not Inquisitorial.

Kanluwen wrote:Voke was Ordo Xenos, same as Eisenhorn.

THANK YOU, that was his name.

Kanluwen wrote:Witch Finder* Tantalid.

He was an Ecclesiarchal operative, not Inquisitorial.

Ah, my mistake.

Then I really don't recall the conversation you are talking about.

Voke put down Eisenhorn's methods in "Xenos", while they were on Gudrun. Eisenhorn jumped Heldane when he and Voke tried to break into their room.

Witchfinder Tantalid was in I want to say "Malleus" before they went to Cadia.

Raven Guard are said in the Codex to be great at infiltration and general sneakiness... but I take that to be within a combat sense, say, observing the enemy from a ridge or flanking them to execute a sudden strike.

I can't really imagine anyone other than the Alpha Legion being capable of living amongst the enemy...

Henners91 wrote:Raven Guard are said in the Codex to be great at infiltration and general sneakiness... but I take that to be within a combat sense, say, observing the enemy from a ridge or flanking them to execute a sudden strike.

I can't really imagine anyone other than the Alpha Legion being capable of living amongst the enemy...

Nothing special about the Alpha Legion. Not like their shorter or something. They just choose that approach.

And they act alone. It's definitely not a James Bond style infiltration such as sneaking into a building, winning at cards and getting the girl. They just build a swathe of followers and act through them.

If its ok we can get Dark Lord Sean to write down fluff for the Adeptus Arbites. That way he can answer our questions.

I'm going to assume you were joking there, Asherian.

EDIT: What I mean is, while DLS is a very gifted writer and his work is very entertaining he is most definitely NOT some sort of judge or creator of fluff. He writes fanfic. Good fanfic yes, but it's still fanfic, not fluff that can be analysed and brought in as evidence.

Emperors Faithful wrote:And they act alone. It's definitely not a James Bond style infiltration such as sneaking into a building, winning at cards and getting the girl. They just build a swathe of followers and act through them.

They kinda do. I could see an Alpha Legionaire drinking a martini.

Legion. Alpha legion.
So I'm guessing the femme fatalle would be a radical inquisitor or SoB of some sort?

*and thus began the foundations of a truly epic piece of fluff that would dwarf any previous BL publications...*