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Mr. Burning wrote:Whilst you wouldn't use an axe to do the work of a scalpel it is pretty easy to be convinced that the axe is harmless.

People will believe what they are told and they will WANT to believe that there is no threat.

Without armour an Astartes would be able to walk around in plain sight. Bulk regardless a marine could be a mutant or a gene bulked servant or worker some kind of abhuman. (In old fluff catachans are slightly abhuman hence the distorted, muscular, arms - if these freaks can wonder around the galaxy I bet an over sized human could too).

The Astartes are not the tools to be used for espionage but don't get sidetracked into thinking that they are too abnormal be hidden in plain view (without blessed power armour and holy boltguns obviously)

A simple servant or worker is going to have access to anything relevant in relation problem of the scale needed to bring in Asartes-level resources. You're looking for the (person behind the person, behind the person)*10^437 before you even get to the ignorant fool who was the assistant, to the assistant, to the assistant to the guy who drives the truck that delivers the needles to the place that sews the outfits for the guys who sew the outfits for the rank and file members of the cult. Never mind access to information or people that could do damage to the threat.

Anything smaller isn't worth Astartes-level resources (regardless of if those resources are actual Astartes or not). Anything that got to that threat level isn't going to just gloss over a well known variety of human killing machine in their ranks. Even if the Marine could "Pass" it's going to take years if not decades and a lot of luck for any agent to work their way to a meaningful level of access. Marines don't have that kind of time to sit around not killing the enemies of the emperor.

Marines are tools designed to kill, and they do their job very well. Certainly they're good enough at stealth and have great senses for when they need those things to get to killing properly. Battlefield Recon, sneaking behind enemy lines, etc... these are all things that make sense for marines to be doing since it directly relates to their purpose of killing things until they're dead, and then killing them again 4-5 times for good measure.

They aren't well suited to getting information from deep within any sort of organization and even if they were they just have tasks that require their more immediate attention. Those tasks likely including something like destroying the well-fortified, underground cultist stronghold somebody else spent years finding.

Could it be the main problem, that many people mix up "Espionage" and "Recon"?

Some Sm certainly will excell at RECON.. here everything said about animalistic instints, skill etc. etc. is true and sound.
But I too doubt that all but maybe some very rare and odd SM would suck at ESPIONAGE, because:

a) They indeed ARE frenking cyborg mutants, regardless how you word it and they will ALWAYS stand out from any normal crowd. Even if not for bulk or implants or missing social skills, then for being so damn awsome (according to the authors that REALLY are into the Sms).
And standing out is a big No GO for any spy. Thats why James Bond is bs (and would die within 5 minutes of being spotted by a totally unremarkable looking spook of the KGB) and thats why A SM Spy would be bs.

b) Espionage takes huge amounts of time. Creating connections, false identities, going under cover for months and years while getting closer to your target etc. etc.
I doubt that any SM chapter would assign one of their precious Battle Brothers in this way as long as there are any other viable options.
Plus I doubt that any but a few Sms would be subtle or patient enough for this (in THIS environment. They could sit on a sniper position for days and weeks without moving or holding a Pass for weeks, no problem. But faking to be a Administratum Clerk for two years? seriously - no way!)

c) Lack of frigging social skills. Being brought up to be killing machines amon other inhuman super-soldiers, often coming from feral world stock... what kind of social skills do SM have to allow them to blend into the mainstream society? None at all. Even the nice ones are arrogant, aloof and utterly unceoncered with the ways the civvies live.

d) No reason to - there are so many people that are better suited to do the tedious, long lasting and mostly boring work of a spy. Even a SM chapter has easily access to any number of normal humans they could train to be their spies and who probably would be grateful and loyal too, if they are taken from along their serfs. There is simpl no reason at all to use Battlebrothers that might be missed elsewhere to be spies...

Unless of course you were conducting espionage against, for example, other Astartes.

... which is ludicrously unlikely given the fact that the only thing rarer than Astartes is Blanks

reds8n wrote: Unless of course you were conducting espionage against, for example, other Astartes.

Even in such a situation, A member of one chapter would likely know or at least recognise many of his fellow members. Serfs, servants, and functionaries tend to be more faceless than a SM would be to his battle brothers.

The key to effective espionage is hiding in plain sight. Its not about Tuxes and Cavier.... Its the guy that blends in and no-one notices that makes the best spy. Take Julius Rosenberg for example... Not exactly a leading man type.


His Brother-in-law was the main source of the information he passed on, an enlisted engineer.

Melissia wrote:... which is ludicrously unlikely

..in the 40K setting. Hmm.. okay.

I'll refer you back to my previous post about a short story about this very thing happening.

Or the way the Alpha Legion destroyed a loyalist chapter.

Yes, and a few scant instances during 10,000 years, over uncounted millions of planets, and uncounted trillions of sentient lives-- that is the very definition of rare.

Here's a modern scenario..... Assume you are working for the British Admiralty..... You need information about activities in Hong Kong.

Do you send MI:6 or the SAS?

helgrenze wrote:Here's a modern scenario..... Assume you are working for the British Admiralty..... You need information about activities in Hong Kong.

Do you send MI:6 or the SAS?

The way things work today? They would probably send a couple of lawyers. And tose would bribed and milked for info by the chinese, or simply forget their laptop with top secret data in a cab.

But your point is well put of course.

helgrenze wrote:Here's a modern scenario

and therefore irrelevant to the 40K setting. But to answer it : I'd send whoever was or had the best fit. Or, importantly, who or what was the best available to me at the time.

Yes, and a few scant instances

...that we know of. If it has happened, then it's quite quite plausible it could and will happen again. Marines are supposed to number less than 1 per planet of the Imperium, but you wouldn't think that by the amount we "see" and are told about them.

Off the top of my head I believe there are Espionage squads depicted in the HH artbook series as well.

And from the forthcoming Deathwatch RPG

If your group has a predilection for political intrigue, the Deathwatch may dispatch your Kill-team to deal with a delicate situation involving the high Lord-Militants of the Crusade, complete with plenty of backstabbing, favour-grubbing, and jockeying for position and privilege.

The machinations of the Crusade in the Jericho Reach provide an excellent background for political maneuvers involving the Deathwatch. There are many places where the efforts of a single Kill-team could spell the difference between victory and defeat, and there are many more officials of the Crusade who are well aware of this fact! During our in-house Deathwatch campaign, the Kill-team encountered a Lord General who had clearly gone insane and needed to be replaced, lest his madness cost the Crusade invaluable territory and progress. This particular challenge required more than bolter fire to solve...

Add in all the politics between rival chapters and theri frequent unwillingness to co operate at times and the lengths they go to conceal things there's no way you can deny it happens.

"The US defines espionage towards itself as "The act of obtaining, delivering, transmitting, communicating, or receiving information"

"Case officers are stationed in foreign countries to recruit and supervise intelligence agents, who in turn spy on targets in their countries where they are assigned."

In The Book Legion, the Alpha Legion do in fact demonstrate through infiltration and indoctrination the act of espionage as described above.

To say that Space Marines can not conduct espionage in view of the fluff and in the games rules (past and present) is wrong.

As to suggest in real world terms if this is actually practical is another matter but this is Sci-fi and real world terms don't matter. (Thank you Star Trek)

Though to be honest Espionage is a waste of time for a Space Marine as the argument still stands that the IoM have people and groups far better suited to the job.

So is it a question of who is better or who is better qualified?

Natural abilities, honed primarily for use on a battle field, are the Astartes proponants main point.

Trained skills, honed over years specifically for the act of espionage, are the proponants of Arbites main point.

And of course there is also the Frankenstein vs the invisible man arguement.

The books and stories referenced in this thread read a lot like Fanfic. The Marine characters come off as more James Bond played by Chuck Norris than the Stainless Steel Rat played by Toby Maguire. (Don't know that reference.... Look it up. Actors included for illustrative purposes only.)

helgrenze wrote: The Marine characters come off as more James Bond played by Chuck Norris than the Stainless Steel Rat played by Toby Maguire. (Don't know that reference.... Look it up. Actors included for illustrative purposes only.)

OT: Stainless Steel Rat is the  roxxorz!

Back on topic: Yes, of course any gathering of secret or priviledged info against the consent of the holder of that info can be defined as espionage, but lets not split hairs too much or we will have to open the whole can of SIGINT, IMINT, OSINT etc. in here and there we are treading esoteric terrain. For the sake of this particular thread lets keep it to the "classical, cloak and dagger" - or rather HUMINT for the so inclined - espionage, that I think was originally on the OPs mind (unless I'm wrong in that assumption).

To be frank the whole issue is kind of mute.

Espionage is a rare thing in 40K though they like to have a go of it in the fluff. Each faction in the Univers can and will do it in some form or another to fit their needs. An eldar will induct a human, Space marines more or less the same, Inquisition a case of DIY, The Tau... well are Tau and so on and so forth. As to who is better opinion is rife.

helgrenze wrote:

The books and stories referenced in this thread read a lot like Fanfic.

I disagree entirely.

And from the first post :

And anything Marines can do in the espionage field, Arbites can probably do better

Can Arbiters eat the brain of a person and absorb their memories and knowledge ?

reds8n wrote:

helgrenze wrote:

The books and stories referenced in this thread read a lot like Fanfic.

I disagree entirely.

And from the first post :

And anything Marines can do in the espionage field, Arbites can probably do better

Can Arbiters eat the brain of a person and absorb their memories and knowledge ?

Nope, but they can torture the heck out of almost anyone and get to the knowledge they want, without risking Mad Cow disease... (Prions anyone?) Also this is beyond the scope of this topic I think. Eating Brains is not espionage, otherwise Zombies would all wear Tuxedos

But seriously, I think this discussion is stalled here. The Astartes Fans (including those among the fluff-authors) will never accept that there is anything that a SM cannot do better then anyone else, so we always will find another piece of fluff or line of reasoning that will prove even the most outrageous claims, regardless if they are sensible, needed or beneficial or not.

Don't get me wrong, this is no flame: thats ok in a fictional universe - but it makes discussing such stuff rather pointless.

In a climate of conspiracy that is a lot of brains to eat. Plus it would take time to sort through those memories to find the ones that are relevant.

ok lets say that SM Sgt B'daas is sent to uncover a xeno conspiracy..... He looks around finds a likely candidate, kills that person and eats his brain. After assimilating the new knowledge, he goes and find some-one that the first victim felt knew more about things... Rinse, repeat...
by the time he makes any headway, people may start to notice folks disappearing. Very inefficient way to conduct an investigation.

Arbiter Smoake is sent to invistigate a similar plot. He inserts himself into the local scene, watches the comings and goings, learns who is acting slightly out of the norm. Then through either stealth or subterfuge gains access to the outer circle of conspirators. Further acts eventually gain him access to the inner circle. Once he has a list of suspects and evidence to back those suspicions, Either a force is sent in to make arrests, or assassins to eliminate the threat.

IF the threat is larger than can be dealt with, then the Guard and or Marines are sent for.

Eating Brains is not espionage,

it is if it gathers you operational information. For example in "Courage and Honour" some Ultramarines are well behind enemy lines and need to get back ASAP with vital info. To this end they stalk kill and then eat some Piranha pilots and absorb their knowledge of how to use their vehicles and the location of their HQ.

I'm not claiming that they're aren't better choices for espionage -- the shape changing assassin is a clear winner , generally. But I think it stupid to claim that marines never use espionage or such tactics or are incapable of it.

Shrike led a squad behind ork enemy lines for two years conducting raids, providing intell and wreaking all manner of havoc.

He inserts himself into the local scene, watches the comings and goings, learns who is acting slightly out of the norm. Then through either stealth or subterfuge gains access to the outer circle of conspirators

All of which a marine is just as capable of doing as well.

Slightly off-topic:

If you were an Alpha Legion-inducted agent, spying on and possibly acting against those you were living amongst, wouldn't you rather your Legion masters hadn't PHYSICALLY BRANDED YOU as one of their own?

Or is that just me?

Necroagogo wrote:Slightly off-topic:

If you were an Alpha Legion-inducted agent, spying on and possibly acting against those you were living amongst, wouldn't you rather your Legion masters hadn't PHYSICALLY BRANDED YOU as one of their own?

Or is that just me?

It is a bit silly

reds8n wrote:
All of which a marine is just as capable of doing as well.

Ok, so then there is no NEED for the Arbites and the Inquistion. The Astartes can do all their work and fight the thousands of battles they normally do.

Its not a question of IF they can do the same job. Obviously, both groups are capable at a base level. But then we come back to the Frankenstiens monster vs the Invisible man side.
Citing something like Shrike in what is obviously a battle field setting is different from gathering intelligence at a costume ball. Or the local market.

You don't send Swat to do a Detectives job. Both are capable of conducting an investigation, but one is better trained to do so.

And you don't need to gather intelligence at a costume ball when you have Psykers who can rip the information out of a suspect's skull.

There are no rights in the 41st Millenium. No Mirandizing suspects, no right to counsel(unless you're filthy stinkin' rich).

Imperial Justice is a bolt to the back of the head, if you're lucky, or being lobotomized and turned into a servitor/flagellant if you're not.

reds8n wrote: Unless of course you were conducting espionage against, for example, other Astartes.

Dun, dun, dunnnnnnnn!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:And you don't need to gather intelligence at a costume ball when you have Psykers who can rip the information out of a suspect's skull.

There are no rights in the 41st Millenium. No Mirandizing suspects, no right to counsel(unless you're filthy stinkin' rich).

Imperial Justice is a bolt to the back of the head, if you're lucky, or being lobotomized and turned into a servitor/flagellant if you're not.

A lot of espionage is not ripping info out of people's head using telepathy, reconnaissance, and other such things.

It is gathering and collating numerous bits of facts which when collated make up a coherent whole.

Since most of the Imperium's enemies are various kinds of aliens and Chaos, there can't be many opportunities for espionage in the normal sense.

I think the only thing even remotely close to "espionage" we'll hear about is, quite simply, on the part of the various Cults infiltrating Imperial society.

Exactly.

Like in East Germany the Stasi spent a lot more time watching their own citizens for signs of deviation than they did trying to bring about the fall of the West.

True enough.

The Imperial "Intelligence" service we've heard about a few times in the Gaunt's Ghosts novels seem to be more of the "Stealth Operations" vein of intelligence gathering, with a few prisoner snatches here and there. It also seems to heavily rely upon Rogue Traders and their crew.

helgrenze wrote:


Its not a question of IF they can do the same job.

Actually that's very much one of the points of contention in the thread.

reds8n wrote:

helgrenze wrote:


Its not a question of IF they can do the same job.

Actually that's very much one of the points of contention in the thread.

Like I said in the same post, You don't send SWAT to do a Detective's job. Both are able to conduct an investigation but one is bettert trained to do that job.

Honestly, anyone, you, me, Melissia, COULD act like a spy. We could infiltrate a place or group, gather information, collect ntelligence and evidence. Heck, we might even get away with it.
BUT that would not make any of us a true espionage agent. At best we would be considered "talented amateurs".

Would Astartes make better spys than the general populace? ... Probably.
Better than the Arbites? ... More than likely not. regardless of the fanfic and anecdotal evidence provided. Its a matter of training and, especially for higher level agents, experience that the space marines would probably lack.

So you're saying that Astartes Scouts from a Chapter like the Raven Guard, who actively infiltrate Ork infested planets for two year durations of surveillance are less talented at espionage than some Arbites Judge who infiltrates a random cult?

Calling BS on it.

In the Tales of Heresy short story Blood Games by Dan Abnett, an Adeptus Custodes manages to infiltrate many different levels of Terran society before smuggling himself into the Imperial Palace as a servant.