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Kanluwen wrote:So you're saying that Astartes Scouts from a Chapter like the Raven Guard, who actively infiltrate Ork infested planets for two year durations of surveillance are less talented at espionage than some Arbites Judge who infiltrates a random cult?

Calling BS on it.

No. Less Trained.

Why would the Raven Guard be on an Ork infested planet? What kind of information are they gathering? Military strength, troop types and movements, minor sabotage, Identifying primary targets... things a military commander would need to know.

The Judge would be looking for less obvious things. What kind of cult, who is in it, who are the leaders/followers, how bad is the contamination... things they would need to prove the need for further action.

Finding the Big Boss on an ork held world isnt that difficult. Finding the demon influenced planetary Official would be considerably harder.... The Orks are not trying to hide.

I've never heard of an Arbitrator going under cover. (Although I have not yet read the Shira Calpurnia novels.) It just doesn't seem to fit their idiom.


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helgrenze wrote:Finding the demon influenced planetary Official would be considerably harder...

This would be the business of Ordos Hereticus and/or Maellus. It's a good bet that most Arbitrators do not even know that daemons exist.

.
Better than the Arbites? ... More than likely not. regardless of the fanfic and anecdotal evidence provided. Its a matter of training and, especially for higher level agents, experience that the space marines would probably lack.

But this is where you're argument keeps collapsing as you're providing no actual proof, oddly enough outside of fanfic wankery and delusions, of the Arbiters actually managing this. Mainly, I suspect, as there appears to be a somewhat odd understanding of what the Arbiters generally do -- most don't investigate and go undercover, mostly they simply oversee the local law enforcement authorities and then stamp down on any outright signs of subversion or heresy.

What we do have a lot of examples of is the Arbiters calling in the Inquisition to follow up and investigate, mainly due to their inability to do so.

And I'm still waiting for counters to things like the aforementioned Raven Guard actions. That is espionage and one most Arbiters couldn't do at all.

I agree that cetain chapters and marines would fail utterly at this -- no chance of Grimaldus pretending to being anything other than what he is and I don't see the Death Company as being especially subtle. Even if they wore hats and or fake moustaches.

And I agree that some.. many even.. chapters would see this as totally beneath them or indeed don't have the time or inclination to investigate what are, to them, mundane concerns.

But members of the Wolf Guard stationed on Terra have been shown as being quite capable of conducting investigations and acting with a surprising deftness of touch. And this is from a chapter whose primarch had a tank named after him as they were both loud, destructive and often fuelled by alcohol.

You think the dark Angels and their successor chapters don't have some form of intelligence network with regards to the Fallen ? To the extent that they know when marines from another chapter have encountered and/or captured one of said foe ?

helgrenze wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:So you're saying that Astartes Scouts from a Chapter like the Raven Guard, who actively infiltrate Ork infested planets for two year durations of surveillance are less talented at espionage than some Arbites Judge who infiltrates a random cult?

Calling BS on it.

No. Less Trained.

Why would the Raven Guard be on an Ork infested planet? What kind of information are they gathering? Military strength, troop types and movements, minor sabotage, Identifying primary targets... things a military commander would need to know.

Or things like y'know...
Manufacturing capabilities, who's supplying the Warboss with his technology, where his material is coming from, etc.

The Judge would be looking for less obvious things. What kind of cult, who is in it, who are the leaders/followers, how bad is the contamination... things they would need to prove the need for further action.

And they won't be involved in that, unless an Inquisitor has sponsored them to get involved.

Finding the Big Boss on an ork held world isnt that difficult. Finding the demon influenced planetary Official would be considerably harder.... The Orks are not trying to hide.

Finding the Warboss on an Ork held world isn't difficult, but finding the Big Mek supplying him with his warmachines is.

And daemonically influenced planetary officials aren't going to be found by an Arbites Judge. The Adeptus Telepathica isn't blind to when there's something daemonic going on.

reds8n wrote:

mostly they simply oversee the local law enforcement authorities and then stamp down on any outright signs of subversion or heresy.

So basically they are like a facist form of FBI.
And how would they detect such subversion and heresy in order to call in the Inquistion? What would qualify as Outright signs of either subversion or heresy?

And I'm still waiting for counters to things like the aforementioned Raven Guard actions. That is espionage and one most Arbiters couldn't do at all.

Countered above. Raven Guard on an Ork world will find what they need rather easily. The trick would be not being found, which is a different skill set. Orks do not hide under layers of subterfuge and misdirection. As for the Big Boss.. just locate the biggest ork on the planet.

helgrenze wrote:So basically they are like a facist form of FBI

That's exactly it.

Perhaps you've heard of what they're based on:

So basically they are like a facist form of FBI.

hmm.. ish. I think the Gestapo would perhaps be a better analogy. They're perfectly justified -- and have done so - in executing a planets Govenor or leaders, they have powers of arrest and final sanction over everyone and everything.
They're not subtle, they're much more "heard reports of bad things in sector X, lets burn down sector x and shoot anyone we find." their investigations largely consist of rounding up people and... applying pressure... until they find what they are looking for.

Again though they are and will be exceptions to this, that's part of the beauty of the setting.

And how would they detect such subversion and heresy in order to call in the Inquistion? What would qualify as Outright signs of either subversion or heresy?

Large increases in psykers, obvious signs of chaos cultist activity... pretty much whatever the plot required I guess.

Countered above. Raven Guard on an Ork world will find what they need rather easily. The trick would be not being found, which is a different skill set

Again I disagree on both points here.

Arbites do undercover. They are cops.

The Arbites do have detectives whose main duty is to track down hackers; cyber criminals operating within the computer matrix of the Adminstratum.

The main purpose of the Adeptus Arbites is to present a public face to the Imperial presence on a world, they are obvious, they are unsubtle and they only enforce the Lex Imperialis, concentrating on treasonous planetary officials, not pretending to be old Mr Granger who seems harmless enough but whose apartment is full of cameras and recording equipment becasue he's an undercover Arbites agent.

Cult activity within the Imperium, which might need the sort of surveillance mentioned above is toutinely done by local law enforvement which has nothing to do with the Arbites. That isn't to say that Officer Bob is looking for Chaos activity, he's almost certainly never heard of Chaos but he will be investigating suspicious activity according to planetary law, he might well stumble upon somethign that's way over his head and that's when the Arbites are contacted.

The Arbites are a paramilitary organisation, with their own fleets and troops, better trained, better armed and better armoured than almost anything the Imperial Guard has to offer. When contacted by planetary law enforcement their first response will be to send in heavily armed death squads which will either neutralise any possible threat or reveal something too big for them to handle in which case the Guard, the Astartes and maybe the Inquisition too if it's deemed necessary will be called in.

Covert surveillance of Chaos or Xenophile Cults done with full knowldge of what these Cults truly are is done by the Inquisition and its agents, especially Chaos Cults. An Inquisitor may well call upon the Arbites if he finds he/she and their henchmen can't deal with the threat themselves but the actual udnercover work is not done by the Arbites.

As to whether or not the Adeptus Arbites, as an organisation is better than the Adeptus Astartes in its entirety at espionage then the answer is almost certainly no. Both the Arbites and the Astartes, in their entireties, probably have proportional amounts of specialists to carry out that role.

Are the Arbites/Astartes better than local police forces at espionage against ordinary folks? No.

Are the Arbites/Astartes better than the Inquisiton at espionage targetted against Chaos or Xenophile Cults? No.

Are the Arbites better at putting whole worlds and their governments under constant surveillance than local law enforcment or the Inquisition or the Astartes? Yes.

Are the Astartes better at military espionage than the Arbites, Inquisition or the Officio Sabatorum? Yes. (it should be noted that the Officio Sabatorum is pretty good too though but more specialised in just exactly what they do unlike the Astartes who are have more general specilists and hence can do more).

I don't think arbites have their own fleets do they?

@ KamikazeCanuck: That depends on what your definition of ownership is I guess. Go ahead, you tell the Imperial Arbites Death Squad "No! You can't have my Yacht!".

Espionage is a lot more complex then this thread is making it out to be. There is a difference between Offensive Espionage, Counter-Espionage, Inciting Revolution, Infiltration and Reconascence that most people here don't seem to grasp, or are ignoring for the sake of their argument.

Also no civilization can survive if they ignore the problems they are facing, for example. If I'm an Arbitas, I know that there is a Chaos Cult in this town but the Inquisitor wont be here for a few months, I'm not going to sit on my hands and say "Meh that's the other guys problem".

Pretty sure Arbites just take Imperial Navy vessels. Much like real cops they don't have battleships.

Astartes, can do all those things but they usually wouldn't. The exception being Alpha Legion which has done and continues to do all those things. When it comes to espionage and counter-espionage they don't do it directly though but with agents they've managed to conscript to their cause.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:@ KamikazeCanuck: That depends on what your definition of ownership is I guess. Go ahead, you tell the Imperial Arbites Death Squad "No! You can't have my Yacht!".

Espionage is a lot more complex then this thread is making it out to be. There is a difference between Offensive Espionage, Counter-Espionage, Inciting Revolution, Infiltration and Reconascence that most people here don't seem to grasp, or are ignoring for the sake of their argument.

Also no civilization can survive if they ignore the problems they are facing, for example. If I'm an Arbitas, I know that there is a Chaos Cult in this town but the Inquisitor wont be here for a few months, I'm not going to sit on my hands and say "Meh that's the other guys problem".

Amen, I think the idea of espionage was checked at the door here.

Probably because espionage, period, is going to be something that's not really big in 40k.

Deep Strike, Hidden Deployment, Snipers, Night Fighting, Objective Missions... Do I really need to go on. Sure as players there is no Espionage, you see the entire board at all times, nothing is really "hidden". However all those rules are meant to simulate parts of Espionage. Also it is Grimdark, if you don't think people sneak around, back-stab, blackmail, extort, murder, assassinate, steal... you have a very small world view.

I have no word to sum up the idea that Espionage is absent form 40k: UNDERHIVES.

thegrav wrote:Deep Strike, Hidden Deployment, Snipers, Night Fighting, Objective Missions.

I don't think any of these things are espionage in the spirit OP meant.


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I can't speak for Kanluwen, but in the sense that I read his post he did not mean "no spies in the 40k setting" so much as "no spies in the 40k game."

Spies are useless as a whole in terms of the 40k background, to be honest.

The Imperium uses Psykers and Rogue Traders to gather intelligence, with the Astartes using their Scout squads and Chapter Serfs in addition to the standard Imperial intelligence services.

The Tau use their Water Caste and Pathfinders as intelligence gathering services, Eldar use the Rangers/Pathfinders and their Farseers to do the same, Tyranids eat your brains, etc.

Would you not agree that Inquisitors sometimes function as spies within Imperial society? And there are of course other spies working for the various interests of Governors and criminals, heretics--and, of course, xenos. If you're talking about spies as a part of the military organization of any force, well that's just not how spies work.


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To get back to OP, I don't think that "espionage" is a tool employed by Adeptus Arbites Judges so whether or not they are better at it than Space Marines, who also don't seem to go out for it, is kind of a moot point.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Pretty sure Arbites just take Imperial Navy vessels.

The fighting forces of the Adeptus Arbites are the Arbitrators, warriors of justice, the militant arm of the Judges. These warriors are many and well armed, capable of fighting a limited war if need be, and of transporting themselves through space in their own ships. For the Judges trust no-one they may be called upon to judge, and can find themselves fighting rebellious Warmasters of the Imperial Guard, or chasing treacherous Admirals of the Fleet. More often it is traitors amongst the planetary lords who are the Arbitrators' foes.

Codex Imperialis page 34

The Arbites are not a police force per se, they are not 'cops'. The Adeptus Arbites enforces the Lex Imperialis, Imperial Law, and have almost as much authoity as an Inquisitor; you could argue that the authority of the Arbites is superior even, as whilst an Inquisitor has absolute authority technically, an Inquisitor can often be just one person, totally alone with only a 'Because I said so' to get them what they want, when they choose to reveal their presence. The Arbites however have the military and fleet assets to enforce their authority instantly with no need to ask other Imperial organisations or individuals to submit to their authority and help them out, pweety pwease.

The militant arm of the Arbites are the Arbitrators who do not administer Imperial Law but enforce it according to a Judge. If we follow the Judge Dread analogy it follows that Arbitrators are like Judge Dread, each one able to serve Instant Justice, but that is not the case only the Judges are like Judge Dread, funnily enough, the Arbitrators are grunts; the Judges determine the guilty and the Arbitrators execute them

ComputerGeek01 wrote:If I'm an Arbitas, I know that there is a Chaos Cult in this town but the Inquisitor wont be here for a few months, I'm not going to sit on my hands and say "Meh that's the other guys problem".

No-one's saying they would, or at least I'm not saying they would, but there is no common knowledge of Chaos and so it is down to a few, mainly the Ordo Malleus, to actually, purposefully go to a world and search for any possible taint of Chaos in whatever form it happens to be.

With that as the case a Chaos Cult would likely draw the attention of local law enforcement first due its activites. If in tackling the Cult as a nefarious organisation (like I say, most ordinary Imperial Citizens don't know about Chaos but they would obviously see the abberant nature of Chaos Cultists and pursue them for what they do, not for what they are) and it was revleaed that the extent of the Cult was of sufficent size or threat to destabilise the planet then the Arbites will be onto pretty quick, and storm in guns blazing as is their want. If that reveals that the Cult is too much of a threa for the local Arbites to deal with then other Imperial organisations will be contacted; the true nature of the Cult might not be known until an Inquisitor turns up with ordinary people assuming it to be a group of 'ordinary' heretics and/or traitors, afterall you can commit heresy without being a devotee of Chaos. The Arbites only get involved when a threat becomes great enough to affect the planet and/or its contributions to the Imperium per the Lex Imperialis.

The point I'm trying to make is that all of these bodies do use or are capable of espionage it is the reasons for the use of espionage and the targets it is used against which determines in what way Imperial organisation X is or is not good at espionage.

Melissia's assertion is that firstly the Arbites are best placed to do what the Arbites do and hence they are better than the Astartes. It is a straw man argument and completely redundant. Secondly that the Arbites are simply better at 'espionage' that the Astartes, 'anything Marines can do in the espionage field, Arbites can probably do better'.

As people have pointed out there are many forms of espionage and as I have tried to demonstrate the various Imperial organisations are better at some forms than the others or realistically are only concerned with and are therefore only good at certain forms of espionage. To say that an Astartes is not going to be able to live on a normal street with normal people and not get noticed is silly, what Astartes would ever want or need to do that? There are only two examples of Astartes doing that (all other examples, Raven Guard included are using stealth as a military tactic, not the same thing at all) and those examples are the Alpha Legion who usually use normal humans anyway, and some Fallen Angels who cast off their armour and lived ordinary lives, amongst ordianry people trying to atone for their past mistakes; and since those Fallen wanted to live ordinary lives, not spy on people, it makes sense that they would have chosen planets or areas where people would look at them and not even blink.

Gogsnik wrote: and have almost as much authoity as an Inquisitor; you could argue that the authority of the Arbites is superior even

Incorrect. All Imperial resources are at the disposal of the Holy Orders of the Emperor's Inquisition by law. That includes the resources of Adeptus Arbites and, as a matter of upholding the law, Arbitrators would be bound more clearly than just about any other Imperial force to cooperate--i.e., submit to Inquisitorial authority. Yet, as Dark Heresy makes clear, Arbitrators do not think this makes the Inquisition above the law. This makes for some interesting calls, of course, as Inquisitors often occupy a grey space in the Imperial hierarchy--at least when Inquisitors begin turning on one another. When it comes to who is at the Inquisition's beck and call, however, there is no doubt: everyone who is not a heretic.

Manchu wrote:Incorrect.

You've missed my point which was that, undeniably Inquisitors have ultimate authority yes but not always the means to enforce it right there and then, something which leads to a nasty end for either the Inquisitor or those defying their authority.

Mistress of minis wrote:Space marines also can live for hundreds of years- that much experience could make them more diverse than just guys with bolters.

Espionage, is a broad endeavor that doesnt always require infiltration amongst an indigenous population.

Arbites, and Inquisitors(and some henchmen) would be more suited for the infiltration and investigation side of it. Whereas a SM could be more adept at military surveillance and observation especially since they have heightened senses compared to a unaugmented human.

Or thousands of years....cough,ahriman

Manchu wrote:

thegrav wrote:Deep Strike, Hidden Deployment, Snipers, Night Fighting, Objective Missions.

I don't think any of these things are espionage in the spirit OP meant.


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I can't speak for Kanluwen, but in the sense that I read his post he did not mean "no spies in the 40k setting" so much as "no spies in the 40k game."

Hence the statement: The true meaning of espionage was checked at the door. You guys are picking a choosing the very popularized and fictional versions of espionage (James Bond gak) and using it as your baseline, and throwing out what espionage, and stealth combat are in general. Also the second bit of my post was a bit more along the lines of your espionage. If the OP was "SPACE MARINES CANNOT SNEAK AROUND IN FULL ARMOR" title it that.


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@Machu: You realize at a certain level you are arguing that State Police are better equipped and better trained to deal with Insurrectionist force in Iraq. I mean the argument is the same. Chaos Cults, at a certain level become the problem of the Military arm of the Empire, not the police arm. Sure 15 cultists in a back room, makes sense. 200,000 Cultists backed by the Iron Warriors... you have a lot of dead cops..

@Gogsnik: No, I caught your point. I think you missed mine: every single battleship, titan, tank, everything right down to the very last lasgun in the Imperium consitute the resources of the Inquisition. You weren't talking about a particular Arbitor--who sometimes act alone just as Inquisitors do. Rather, you were talking about the Adeptus Arbites as a whole. Similarly, I was talking about the Inquisition as a whole.

@thegrav: Espionage is not the same thing as reconnaissance. I daresay you're throwing out James Bond in favor of Solid Snake here.


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thegrav wrote:@Machu: You realize at a certain level you are arguing that State Police are better equipped and better trained to deal with Insurrectionist force in Iraq. I mean the argument is the same. Chaos Cults, at a certain level become the problem of the Military arm of the Empire, not the police arm. Sure 15 cultists in a back room, makes sense. 200,000 Cultists backed by the Iron Warriors... you have a lot of dead cops..

You seem to be assuming that I think the Adeptus Arbites are the equivalent of the Imperial Guard or Space Marines but I've not made that argument at all. That would be Gogsnik.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I don't think arbites have their own fleets do they?

Yes they do, one of them is even featured in one of the novels... a McNeill one maybe ? Can't recall right now and it'll bug all day now. Thanks !

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Pretty sure Arbites just take Imperial Navy vessels. Much like real cops they don't have battleships.

Astartes, can do all those things but they usually wouldn't. The exception being Alpha Legion which has done and continues to do all those things. When it comes to espionage and counter-espionage they don't do it directly though but with agents they've managed to conscript to their cause.

Yes they have :-D

http://blackstone.outpost10f.com/ships/punisher.html

Execution hour ! Of course.

Manchu wrote:

Gogsnik wrote: and have almost as much authoity as an Inquisitor; you could argue that the authority of the Arbites is superior even

Incorrect. All Imperial resources are at the disposal of the Holy Orders of the Emperor's Inquisition by law. That includes the resources of Adeptus Arbites and, as a matter of upholding the law, Arbitrators would be bound more clearly than just about any other Imperial force to cooperate--i.e., submit to Inquisitorial authority. Yet, as Dark Heresy makes clear, Arbitrators do not think this makes the Inquisition above the law. This makes for some interesting calls, of course, as Inquisitors often occupy a grey space in the Imperial hierarchy--at least when Inquisitors begin turning on one another. When it comes to who is at the Inquisition's beck and call, however, there is no doubt: everyone who is not a heretic.

Thats correct, but I think what he meant is that while - in theory - everyone would have to submit to an Inquisitors wishes immediatly, some might not be inclined to do so, especially when they are powerful/well connected, the Inquisitor is there only with a small entourage, and/or even under cover and they basically think they could get away with it; while the Arbites would probably have at least a Precinct House or even a Puninisher Cruiser in Orbit, so that the rebellious scum would not have a chance to shut them up without at least word getting out. In the end its all politics and the real power of either an Inquisitor or Arbitres Marshal is measured by his backing and how powerful the parties are he wants to either coerce or move against.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:@ KamikazeCanuck: That depends on what your definition of ownership is I guess. Go ahead, you tell the Imperial Arbites Death Squad "No! You can't have my Yacht!".

Espionage is a lot more complex then this thread is making it out to be. There is a difference between Offensive Espionage, Counter-Espionage, Inciting Revolution, Infiltration and Reconascence that most people here don't seem to grasp, or are ignoring for the sake of their argument.

Also no civilization can survive if they ignore the problems they are facing, for example. If I'm an Arbitas, I know that there is a Chaos Cult in this town but the Inquisitor wont be here for a few months, I'm not going to sit on my hands and say "Meh that's the other guys problem".

You might if you thought that when the Inquisitor arrived he would shoot you for meddling in his affairs.

Manchu wrote:@Gogsnik: No, I caught your point. I think you missed mine: every single battleship, titan, tank, everything right down to the very last lasgun in the Imperium consitute the resources of the Inquisition.

Yes, I know that, I don't dispute that and never have; except the part about Titans and the Adeptus Mechanicus in general which the Inquisition does not have ultimate authority over.

Rather, you were talking about the Adeptus Arbites as a whole.

Exactly and that is why you have cotinued to miss my point which is this - If a Judge tells someone to do something, anyone, Joe Bloggs of Governor Big Chees whomever, and they refuse or tell him to get lost then right at his back the Judge has an army of fanatical, highly trained andwell equipped Arbitrators and maybe some ships in orbit who can enfore the Judges will instantly.


An Inquisitor does not start out with an army or fleet at his beck and call. Some may, over the course of their career gain enough influence so that after several centuries they may have what is literally a private army but those Inquisitor are few and far between.

Since the Inquisition has no formalised hierarchy most Inquisitors are on their own, they may not be part of one of the Ordos and hence do not get the support of a Chamber Militant and even if they were there use of such troops is checked by other Inquisitors.

The vast majority of Inquisitors operate alone, with a few trusted henchmen, maybe.

My point with regards to an Inquisitor not getting his way is that when an Inquisitor operates alone he may not be able to order every single person aroudn him to do whatever he wants, it could very well jeopardise years of investigation.

The Arbites as an organisation, most of the time, do not have lone individuals operating by themselves in the manner of an Inquisitor and hence it is unlikely that they will ever find themselves in a position where someone can just say no to them.

You seem to be assuming that I think the Adeptus Arbites are the equivalent of the Imperial Guard or Space Marines but I've not made that argument at all. That would be Gogsnik.

I don't know what your point here is. I've never said the Adeptus Arbites are like the Imperial Guard or the Adeptus Astartes either.