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in line with the quarterly IMP vs. UFP debate thread, here is a colateral thread that, to me is more comparable.

Who wins? Scenario: massed planetary engagements. Assume Gudalcanal situations. neither side controls spaceways effectively and convoys can ferry in troops/supplies (and occasionally blow the hell out of opposing forces). Battlefield is strictly biosphere level-air and land.

1. Imperium of Man vs. Galactic Empire (from Clone Wars to Jedi Returns for reference)
IM-Guard up to Legions with navy support (aircraft and landers). Marines on occasion.
GE-clone forces
This can be multiple planet or a single planet

How would they stack up?

2. Ork Empires vs. Galactic Empire.
GE-as above.
Orks-major waugh incursion into GE space.

Frazzled wrote:in line with the quarterly IMP vs. UFP debate thread, here is a colateral thread that, to me is more comparable.

Who wins? Scenario: massed planetary engagements. Assume Gudalcanal situations. neither side controls spaceways effectively and convoys can ferry in troops/supplies (and occasionally blow the hell out of opposing forces). Battlefield is strictly biosphere level-air and land.

1. Imperium of Man vs. Galactic Empire (from Clone Wars to Jedi Returns for reference)
IM-Guard up to Legions with navy support (aircraft and landers). Marines on occasion.
GE-clone forces
This can be multiple planet or a single planet

How would they stack up?

2. Ork Empires vs. Galactic Empire.
GE-as above.
Orks-major waugh incursion into GE space.

Imperium of Man hands down, because they have all the serious Kit and - more importantly the doctrine and tactical and strategic experience. While a Stormtrooper might be better equipped then a Guardsman, they never showed any decent tactics beyond Squad level. Guard Heavy Weapons teams could quickly dispose of AT-ST Walkers and such while SWE Armies never showed more then Heavy Blasters and man portable rockets, both of which probably couldn't really hurt a Leman Russ. AT-ATs wouldn't be a match even to Wolfhound Titans, but even when those are not available, a few Titan Killer Superheavies could take out an entire Column of AT-STs from well beyond their engagment envelope.
The only thing where the Galactic Empire could probably match up would be in Air Superiority, and even there they would be outgunned in the end.

IG all the way, they may not be able to shoot as well as say a space marine, but they can still shoot better then a Storm Trooper.

I think Imperium of man because they have guns that shoot bullets which go faster then lasers.

Besides the Empire was defeated by rebels so they can't be that tough.

I was in the UFP corner in the first thread. I’m going with the Imperium in this one.

If you’re including Titan legions – the Imperium has it by a landslide.

If not, super heavy tanks still make short work of AT-AT’s in my anyway.

The Empire’s strategy for getting troops to the front is just plain stupid. Slow and lumbering AT-AT’s plod into battle under direct fire from the opposition. With the support of space marines, dealing with them would be easy work…

“Sir! We have an AT-AT approaching from the east. What should we do?”
“Ask Captain Generic Space Marine #5 to ram its legs with a Landriader. That should stop it… then, when it crashes to the ground the super human nigh-invulnerable god-warriors can poke flamers in the windows and have a Storm Trooper barbecue.”
“… it can’t be that simple sir. This will be a massacre!”
“I’m thinking about pairing up Chimera with long chains and having them drive all over the battlefield tripping AT ST’s. What do you think?”

Pretty much if you've mastered stone age technology and basic booby traps you're a match for Stormtroopers.

Conscripts could handle the Empire.

Hastus_Drake wrote:Imperium of Man hands down, because they have all the serious Kit and - more importantly the doctrine and tactical and strategic experience. While a Stormtrooper might be better equipped then a Guardsman, they never showed any decent tactics beyond Squad level. Guard Heavy Weapons teams could quickly dispose of AT-ST Walkers and such while SWE Armies never showed more then Heavy Blasters and man portable rockets, both of which probably couldn't really hurt a Leman Russ. AT-ATs wouldn't be a match even to Wolfhound Titans, but even when those are not available, a few Titan Killer Superheavies could take out an entire Column of AT-STs from well beyond their engagment envelope.

Not that I completely disagree - but what are you basing this analysis on? Considering that blaster type weaponry is a catch all term that encompasses everything from pistols to starship sized guns sharing type - I'm not sure where you get the idea that they are inferior in power to IoM weapons. Since IoM missile launchers can damage and destroy a Leman Russ, I don't follow your logic that a similar weapon carried by stormtroopers would be ineffective. On the flip side, playing devil's advocate, considering that AT-ATs have armour impervious to snowspeeder blasters and stationary blaster turrets - one might come to the conclusion that they are virtually invincible vs most tank class weaponry (as long as enemies are kept away from its weaker under armor) and require superheavy weaponry to deal with.

You are also discounting all the equipment that the Republic deployed in Attack of the Clones / Revenge of the Sith (specifically permitted in this fantasy matchup as its vintage is the beginning of the Clone Wars) - it would appear that it is not as lopsided as you might think. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Self-Propelled_Heavy_Artillery looks like it could match any IoM superheavy for firepower, as it mounts a captial ship sized primary weapon.

Yak9UT wrote:I think Imperium of man because they have guns that shoot bullets which go faster then lasers. Besides the Empire was defeated by rebels so they can't be that tough.

LOL Whut????

The Rebels would have lost the war without EWOKs. Therefore, EWOKs are superior to both the IoM AND the Galactic Empire. (Curse you Lucas!)

Thor665 wrote:Pretty much if you've mastered stone age technology and basic booby traps you're a match for Stormtroopers.

Yub Yub!

OK, I think we have to drop out the Ewoks from the discussion. Frankly their cuteness factor is what did it and would have an even worse effect on IM troops ESPECIALLY Marines. Its like a nurgle plague-the sugar overload causes insulin shock...

I'd also give the GS troopers heavy weapon blasters (ESB); Superheavy walkers capable of shooting down space freighters (SWAC) and flyers (SWAC, SWRS).

i would say that infantry Blasters are the equivilant of Lasguns. Larger guns are Multi-lasers and Lascannons.

now this means that Storm Troopers only have a 6+ save.



AT-ATs would be resistant to any Energy based weapon(Las and Plasma weapons) the Impierium has as the primary weapon present in the Star Wars universe is an energy weapon, but it would be vulnerable to solid weapons like missiles, bombs and rokkits.
i think this is mentioned in Star Wars novels and is why the rebels used AP missiles as their primary AT as opposed to turbo-lasers.


naturally the Impierium has Star Wars beat in CC unless a Lightsabre gets involved. Storm Shields and Iron Halos would halt the Blade, but parrying would destroy any impierial CC weapon.


In space, one on one the 2 are about even, but the Impierium of man most likely has the Empire out numbered at least 10 to 1 in ship numbers. a Super Stardestroyer could go toe to toe with a Battlebarge, Emperor or any similer sized ship, but there would be more of them then there would be Super Stardestroyers.

normal Stardestroyers would be rough equivilants of Impierial Heavy Cruisers.
Impierial escorts are slightly better then Tartan patrol cruisers as they can have heavy weapons while the Tartan is limited to laser cannons.

Void Shields are probably better then Shield Generators, but not by much. although the fact that Shield generators are pretty common for Ground forces in the Star wars universe would be a considerable advantage.

Per wookiepedia blasters can be lasers/energized particles, or plasma weapons.

It might also note that blasters may be prevalent as stormtrooper armor may be more resilient to to kinetic attack, forcing the shift to that.

The armor issue is an interesting question. The coverage is carapace + level, so the effectiveness of the armor is important.

On wookiepedia, it says that the armor is effective enough to take about 3 las-blasts before the soldier goes down, so it is probably about as effective as carapace armor/flak.

However, it does say that the armor is easily penetrated by armor piercing slug throwers, so I'd say that any bolt weapon would be pretty lethal to stormtroopers.

If we ignore the battle of endor, I'd put regular stormtroopers on about the level of veteran guardsmen, with slightly better armor and about equivalent weaponry.

AT-ATs and AT-STs I'd imagine would be a joke against some of the armor the IoM could field: Baneblades, Landraiders, etc. If they came up against an actual Titan, I can only imagine what would happen.

AT-AT 22.5m tall
Reaver Battle Titan 26m tall, with way more weaponry

What kind of weaponry did the large walkers even field? Would they be equivalent to plasma cannons?

I can't particularly think of any situation where the armor appeared to prevent death in either the movies or the books.

Off the top of my head I recall the WEG Star Wars RPG having Stormtrooper armor as basically the best in the galaxy short of Mandalorian; though it was best for dealing with kinetic type attacks as Blasters mostly tore through it.

In CC I think a power weapon would beat a lightsaber: Power weapons have energy fields that cut through anything, lightsabers are just blades of heat. Also I don't know any land-based GE machine capable of taking down an imperator. And a shadowsword would easily take down an AT-AT. Walkers, as incarna said, are the GEs primary form of land vehicle and chimeras or rhinos would just knock there legs out from underneath them. Ground troops would be shredded by stormlords, hellhammers, baneblades, banewolfs-basicly any IG super heavy apart from shadowswords. Russes would be almost unstoppable against land forces and chimeras could just put dozers on and bulldoze infrantry down. On land, basicly, IG would both outnumber and outclass GE. In space, GE is a helluva lot more manouverable, but would be far outnumbered by IN, plus they don't have any real counter to nova cannons or large amounts of lance batteries.

this is a tough call. i'd say the imperium if marines were readily available but if it's just the guard i'm not so sure for one reason alone. Empire Dark Troopers. also everyone is forgetting about the AT PT and assuming it'd just be AT AT and AT ST's. an air war empire would most likely win for the same reason the imperium would win in a ground war with the UFP, numbers. the empire has the numbers and they care even less about the death of their own men then the imperium does

keezus wrote:

Hastus_Drake wrote:Imperium of Man hands down, because they have all the serious Kit and - more importantly the doctrine and tactical and strategic experience. While a Stormtrooper might be better equipped then a Guardsman, they never showed any decent tactics beyond Squad level. Guard Heavy Weapons teams could quickly dispose of AT-ST Walkers and such while SWE Armies never showed more then Heavy Blasters and man portable rockets, both of which probably couldn't really hurt a Leman Russ. AT-ATs wouldn't be a match even to Wolfhound Titans, but even when those are not available, a few Titan Killer Superheavies could take out an entire Column of AT-STs from well beyond their engagment envelope.

Not that I completely disagree - but what are you basing this analysis on? Considering that blaster type weaponry is a catch all term that encompasses everything from pistols to starship sized guns sharing type - I'm not sure where you get the idea that they are inferior in power to IoM weapons. Since IoM missile launchers can damage and destroy a Leman Russ, I don't follow your logic that a similar weapon carried by stormtroopers would be ineffective. On the flip side, playing devil's advocate, considering that AT-ATs have armour impervious to snowspeeder blasters and stationary blaster turrets - one might come to the conclusion that they are virtually invincible vs most tank class weaponry (as long as enemies are kept away from its weaker under armor) and require superheavy weaponry to deal with.

You are also discounting all the equipment that the Republic deployed in Attack of the Clones / Revenge of the Sith (specifically permitted in this fantasy matchup as its vintage is the beginning of the Clone Wars) - it would appear that it is not as lopsided as you might think. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Self-Propelled_Heavy_Artillery looks like it could match any IoM superheavy for firepower, as it mounts a captial ship sized primary weapon.

I base that on the simple basis that we have no way of comparing stuff like power output etc. directly. So we can just judge by empirical evidence (eg. see what a weapon does to its target in movies and fluff). From there I have to judge that standard SW Blaster Weaponry is not more powerful then Imerial Las Guns of any type are. Star Wars Stormtrooper Carapace is obviously worse then Guard Issue Carapace, as that can deflect Las Bolts at least on occasion, while stormtroopers keel over even from ricocheting blaster bolts. A Heavy Blaster, like that used by the Snowtroopers in Empire Strikes Back, obviously cannot even penetrate the armor of a pimped Trampfreighter (and yeah, we know its the most pimped Tramp freighter evah, but still it is designed to operate with strong shield all the time, no need to really armor it), how should it fare better against a dedicated Fighting Vehicle? I must admit watching the atrocities that pass themselfes as the prequel Trioligy only once each, so I might be wrong here, but the handheld weapons didn't strike me as particularily effective.
Anyway, what we don't see are dedicated Anti-Armor Teams, or anything else that would indicate a working and rounded doctrine for any real battles - all we see is more or less either "Two Hordes clash like ancient saxons but with Lasers and in Spaaace" or at best Squad level tactics.

Self propelled Heavy artillery looks like a decent Titan Killer, granted, but I think it would not get of many shots when it illuminates itself and a Battery of Earthshakers lays an anti artillery barrage over his position from far beyond Line of Sight (LOS Artillery is not really a sound concept outside Anti-Air or Anti-Orbit missions).

Grey Templar wrote:i would say that infantry Blasters are the equivilant of Lasguns. Larger guns are Multi-lasers and Lascannons.

now this means that Storm Troopers only have a 6+ save.



AT-ATs would be resistant to any Energy based weapon(Las and Plasma weapons) the Impierium has as the primary weapon present in the Star Wars universe is an energy weapon, but it would be vulnerable to solid weapons like missiles, bombs and rokkits.
i think this is mentioned in Star Wars novels and is why the rebels used AP missiles as their primary AT as opposed to turbo-lasers.


naturally the Impierium has Star Wars beat in CC unless a Lightsabre gets involved. Storm Shields and Iron Halos would halt the Blade, but parrying would destroy any impierial CC weapon.


In space, one on one the 2 are about even, but the Impierium of man most likely has the Empire out numbered at least 10 to 1 in ship numbers. a Super Stardestroyer could go toe to toe with a Battlebarge, Emperor or any similer sized ship, but there would be more of them then there would be Super Stardestroyers.

normal Stardestroyers would be rough equivilants of Impierial Heavy Cruisers.
Impierial escorts are slightly better then Tartan patrol cruisers as they can have heavy weapons while the Tartan is limited to laser cannons.

Void Shields are probably better then Shield Generators, but not by much. although the fact that Shield generators are pretty common for Ground forces in the Star wars universe would be a considerable advantage.

AT-Ats might be shielded, but Anti-Titan weapons are designed to either pierce or overload voidshields, so I guess even an energy based AT weapon would have a decent chance of doing damage against a Walker.

Space Combat was deliberatly left out by the OP. But for the Arguments sake: Star Wars Empire would beat the gak out of the IoM Navy, simple because SW Hyperdrive is so much more effective then Warptravel, that it becomes ridiculous. SW Imperial Navy can just amass its forces anywhere and beat the IoM Navy piecemeal, without much of a sweat.

And about Lightsabers owning everything else: I doubt that. Besides Stormshields and Halos, all Power Weapons would be able to parry them imo (SW Fluff itself has a kind of Powerweapons and others instances, where this happens). Besides, either Warp related rules would be applicable (they fight in 40K Galaxy), then Jedi would be consumed by the warp faster then you could say "This are not the servitors you are looking for" or they would not (fighting in the SW Galaxy), then Imperial Psykers and especially SM Librarians would be able to unleash Mega-Damage without flinching. That is of course a highly subjective opinion (even more then the rest), but I think, someone surviving at least partially sane in an environment that ludicrously hostile to any Force User, must be one hell of a Bad Ass when let loose in a Sandbox environment where he has not to concern himself with defending his sould all the time.

I've talked to my friend several times about lightsabers, and he is a pretty big star wars nut. I know the mandelorians have armor specially made to withstand lightsabers, shields as well.

I'd put my money on a TH/SS terminator vs a lightsaber wielding opponent.

Power weapon vs lightsaber, one would think the lightsaber would slice through a power weapon unless it was made of pretty heat resistant stuff, but who knows.

daedalus-templarius wrote:AT-ATs and AT-STs I'd imagine would be a joke against some of the armor the IoM could field: Baneblades, Landraiders, etc. If they came up against an actual Titan, I can only imagine what would happen.

People need to stop comparing AT-ATs to Titans and superheavy combat tanks. They don't share the same role. AT-ATs are Assault TRANSPORTS - hence the name All Terrain Armoured Transport. They occupy the same niche as a Gorgon/Stormlord, except with heavier guns.

Ground forces aside, whoever wins the air superiority will win this hypothetical matchup.

daedalus-templarius wrote:On wookiepedia, it says that the armor is effective enough to take about 3 las-blasts before the soldier goes down, so it is probably about as effective as carapace armor/flak.

However, it does say that the armor is easily penetrated by armor piercing slug throwers, so I'd say that any bolt weapon would be pretty lethal to stormtroopers.

If we ignore the battle of endor, I'd put regular stormtroopers on about the level of veteran guardsmen, with slightly better armor and about equivalent weaponry.

AT-ATs and AT-STs I'd imagine would be a joke against some of the armor the IoM could field: Baneblades, Landraiders, etc. If they came up against an actual Titan, I can only imagine what would happen.

AT-AT 22.5m tall
Reaver Battle Titan 26m tall, with way more weaponry

What kind of weaponry did the large walkers even field? Would they be equivalent to plasma cannons?

I'd go with that, although I might shift stats to regular guardsmen.

The difficulty on the IM side is that the AT-AT's, AT-STs and super shooters (I don't know what those were called) might be easier to take down, the GE appears capable of making buttloads of them. They use them more as common attack transports then titans. With their skimmer transport capacity I'd give them the edge in fast movement regiments and heavy assault backup.

On the flipside the IM has the proven ability to produce and transport absolute clouds of Leman tanks, and are Zhykovian in their love of massed artillery. Quantity has a quality all its own.

AT-ATs are only proof against energy weapons until the fall over (ESB) - so tripping it up seems a good way to go...

keezus wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:AT-ATs and AT-STs I'd imagine would be a joke against some of the armor the IoM could field: Baneblades, Landraiders, etc. If they came up against an actual Titan, I can only imagine what would happen.

People need to stop comparing AT-ATs to Titans and superheavy combat tanks. They don't share the same role. AT-ATs are Assault TRANSPORTS - hence the name All Terrain Armoured Transport. They occupy the same niche as a Gorgon/Stormlord, except with heavier guns.

Ground forces aside, whoever wins the air superiority will win this hypothetical matchup.

This quote is directly from Wookiepedia

"Designed for the dual purpose of crushing and demoralizing enemy forces, and also serving as a transport for Imperial troops and light vehicles, the AT-AT was unsurpassed as the most awesome vehicle in the Imperial Army inventory."

I'd go with Titans are "the most awesome vehicle in the IoM army inventory"

So, if they aren't comparable to Baneblades or Titans, but are comparable to Landraiders(since they are assault transports after all), what is the GE going to put up vs titans and baneblades when they come knocking?

If we go with EPIC they'd just shoot the titans a lot. Same as Tau. Titans fluffwise are rare as heck (EPIC they're pretty damn common...), so it would only occasionally be an issue. But ayah I'd agree the titans would be the KingTigers of the battlefield unless the GS has something I am not aware of.

@Frazzled: Considering that the GE enjoyed almost complete space supremacy - and by extension, probably air superiority as well - I would expect that they would normally hit things hardened targets like Titans from orbit. Their stormtrooper forces seem to be used more often as a police/garrison force, a pacification tool or for psychological effect and sometimes, surgical strikes - not so much in open war.

Without GE navy support, Titans would probably win the day for the IoM

keezus wrote:@Frazzled: Considering that the GE enjoyed almost complete space supremacy - and by extension, probably air superiority as well - I would expect that they would normally hit things hardened targets like Titans from orbit. Their stormtrooper forces seem to be used more often as a police/garrison force, a pacification tool or for psychological effect and sometimes, surgical strikes - not so much in open war.

Without GE navy support, Titans would probably win the day for the IoM

Tau have no titans. Tau can hammer (pardon the pun) Titans pretty well. Massed lemans or (and here's the part I come) ticked off eldar firefighting can do similar. Titans are not invulnerable by a good bit. They are shielded but you can bring those shields down. Massed GE fire would do the trick in a very similar manner with their skimmers and ATs. Alternatively GE sniper tanks and mobile artillery should be quite effective.

On the flip side, I'd think marines would do quite well against the GE. Their strengths of shock trooping, heavy armor, and strong personal killy power one on one would make them quite powerful. Marine weaknesses in CC against better alien xenos are nullified. Targetting tactical commands (use of ATs as command vehicles), once discovered would be an excellent way for marines to create havoc. Jumpmarines coming in from a swooping thunderhawk would put paid to command Ats pretty easily, even those heavily escorted (drop out the back, land on AT, place melta charges,fly off, PROFIT!)

Aw comeone, did someone really put up Psykers? Really? Every single jedi and Sith is a Psyker too, some can move super human fast, leap higher, assault your brain, zap you with lightning, hurl the lightsabers ridiculous distances and have them return to their hand. The strength of the saber depends on the wielder and what they want to do with it, then can use it as a bat, or a gigantic cutting knife through the hull of a starship, to try and say power weapons are even remotely even is ridiculous. Mandalorian armor only stoof up to it for a limited number of hits, as the energy field protecting it was depleted with each swing. NOTHING has ever, or will ever, stop a lightsaber for more then several attempts then another lightsaber.

I might go with the GE as the carapace used by the stormtroopers is misleading in the movies. They have great anti energy armour, it's just that the rebels in the SW universe came up with higher power guns (Hans pistol is an example). And lets face it, if someone drops a rock on you, you may not get hurt but you will fall down; like American football.


My biggest defense is the opening credits...A long long time ago....

GE gak is all kinds of venerable

Frazzled wrote:On the flip side, I'd think marines would do quite well against the GE. Their strengths of shock trooping, heavy armor, and strong personal killy power one on one would make them quite powerful. Marine weaknesses in CC against better alien xenos are nullified. Targetting tactical commands (use of ATs as command vehicles), once discovered would be an excellent way for marines to create havoc. Jumpmarines coming in from a swooping thunderhawk would put paid to command Ats pretty easily, even those heavily escorted (drop out the back, land on AT, place melta charges,fly off, PROFIT!)

True dat... I can also see dreadnoughts walking through platoons of stormtroopers, roasting them with his heavy flamer... so marines are pretty awesome except for the Metal Bawkses TM part (Rhinos)

I'm almost more interested in how the Marines would fare against the Confederacy's shielded droidekas and super battledroid units - considering that these guys were messing up Jedi through strength of numbers and weakness of droid control centers aside.

the big weakness droids had(and it was only beginning to be rectified at the end of the clone war) was their poor reflexes(inability to dodge quickly) and their relatively weak armour.


Droideka's were much better having maneuravability and powerful weapons and shields, but the Shields would likely drop fairly quickly to massed lasgun fire and they could only be produced in quantity up to a point. Droidekas actually have much less physical protection then a Super battle droid. they would be very easy to kill once the shields dropped.


the way the droids overwhelmed enemies was through weight of fire, a jedi can only block so many shots at once. they are cheap to make too. however i would say the Impierium would have as many, if not more, guardsmen then the Confederacy would have Droids.

Droids easily fall to an enemy force of organics that is 1/2 the size of the droid numbers. what would happen if they were equaled or even surpassed in numbers by Humans wielding equilivant armour and backed up by hordes of Tanks that have guns that are armed with HE shells that just love rows and rows of targets.

The IoM likely has EMP weapons avaliable as well which would wreak havok on all Star wars equipment.



and Power weapons are not supierior to Lightsabres.

LS project a field of plasma.

power weapons are steel of ceramite blades(physical matter) that have a generator that projects an energy field that desabilizes matter that comes within the field.


the best case scenario would be the 2 weapons stopping each other, assuming the 2 energy fields would interact with eachother and exhert a force attempting to seperate the 2 fields.


most likely they would bypass each other and the Lightsabre would sever the PW with only minor resistance.

If expanded universe is included, even during the timeline provided. Hands down it is the GE.
IoM wouldn't stand even half a chance.

Even based on the canon movies. IoM would phail miserably, even moreso then they would phail vs the Federation/STu

Havoc13 wrote:If expanded universe is included, even during the timeline provided. Hands down it is the GE.
IoM wouldn't stand even half a chance.

Even based on the canon movies. IoM would phail miserably, even moreso then they would phail vs the Federation/STu

You must know things we all don't I guess.