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While I'm a big fan of Star Wars, we've seen "elite" regimens of Storm Troopers get owned by a few dozen teddy bears. Space Marines > teddy bear midgets.

Even discounting Ewoks, Stormtroopers can't hit the broad side of a barn, and their armor has built-in energy magnets that draws all incoming fire towards their weak-points.

Just to correct Grey Templar, not ALL poiwer weapons have a solid core - the oldest (and therefore best) are much more like lightsabres, just a hilt projecting an energy field.

HiddenPower wrote:Im suprised no one has brought up the Mighty DeathStar. I mean the GE can I assume easily build another one or two and well goodbye anything the IoM can muster.

Oh i forgot screw the the Titans look up world devastators or speaking of artillery which IoM lovers are so proud of i challenge an entire planet covered in IG artillery versus the GE's Galaxy Gun now thats a artillery piece

Note the title of the thread. Ground War Only.

In terms of a ground war?

Tricky.
It depends on who was fighting, and where. If it were an Empire invasion, say, of an Imperial planet, I'd say that The Empire would win, but it would be bloody for them. Same with the Rebellion, except that the rebellion may take less casualties due to their guerilla tactics.
However, if they took their time about it, the Imperium would win with a great degree of certainty, as eventually their reinforcements would arrive and, as we all know, it's nigh impossible to stop 6 million guardsmen from crushing you.
Similarly, if the Imperium was on the offensive, once it had some momentum going it would be a virtual juggernaut and extremely difficult to stop.

GE has the advantage in air superiority. Constant bombardment from TIE fighters and bombers would destroy a lot of the Imperium's tanks. No way is a Leman Russ gonna survive an energy bomb being dropped on it.

As for everything else it depends which version of Empire troops from.
Movies - They are as good as dead.
Expanded Universe - they are actually quite powerful and capable of actually hitting an enemy. They might actually win.

In space, the Galactic Empire would win with all their crazy wunderwaffen toys. They also have better superiority fighters.

In pure ground warfare, I would give it to the Imperium. They simply have way more manpower, and Space Marines are an enormous tide-turner.

omgnowaiii wrote:GE has the advantage in air superiority. Constant bombardment from TIE fighters and bombers would destroy a lot of the Imperium's tanks. No way is a Leman Russ gonna survive an energy bomb being dropped on it.

As for everything else it depends which version of Empire troops from.
Movies - They are as good as dead.
Expanded Universe - they are actually quite powerful and capable of actually hitting an enemy. They might actually win.

Yeah, if the Imperium had no anti-aircraft stuff. As it happens, they do, in the form of either Hydra Flak batteries or squadrons of Thunderbolt interceptors - maybe even both, depending on the scale of the operations.

Yeah, I agree with the expanded universe stuff, but even then, there's only so much you can do against near-endless numbers of infantry waves followed by big ol' tanks and titans.

omgnowaiii wrote:GE has the advantage in air superiority. Constant bombardment from TIE fighters and bombers would destroy a lot of the Imperium's tanks. No way is a Leman Russ gonna survive an energy bomb being dropped on it.

As for everything else it depends which version of Empire troops from.
Movies - They are as good as dead.
Expanded Universe - they are actually quite powerful and capable of actually hitting an enemy. They might actually win.

Tie Fighters against Thunderbolts and Lightnings? That would be close but in the end, prolly go to the Imperium, as TIEs simply can't take any punishment - Just hit the Solar panel with an AC round and off he goes (as shown in oh so many movie sequeces), while a Thunderbolt might survive a lascannon hit and fight on.TIE Bombers wouldn't even get mentioned as they could be shot out of the sky by a Marauder in passing before dropping its own payload. GE Figghter doctrine always was so silly, it hurts. Luv me my old Intercepter tho, ah good times.

Full speed to Killimar! anyone?


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One of you guys being still actively a fan of SW surely can dig up that info: How many Clone warriors did the Republic order? How does that compare to say, the billion men under arms used for the Sabbath Worlds Crusade alone? I think not very well, but I could be mistaken.

I just want to point out all this is moot. I am changing my away from the IoM. Yes they have huge numbers, yes they have cool weapons, but if you want just a ground battle, they still lose. Why? Because you can thave the massive ground battle you want without going into space. They will get crushed trying to get their stuff TO the ground fight. The empire will annihilate all their vehicles and equiptment while in transit, hungry and starving soldiers dont fight well. Even if the EMPIRE attacked THEM, theres still only so much they can have/get there, while the empire courdons off their orbit stopping all supplies, then they send in the droids, which are easy to make, lay waste eventually to whats on that planet, fly in more stuff, maybe make new droid factory, and move on. The entire concept of a ground war is impossible.

Warlordron'swaagh wrote:I just want to point out all this is moot. I am changing my away from the IoM. Yes they have huge numbers, yes they have cool weapons, but if you want just a ground battle, they still lose. Why? Because you can thave the massive ground battle you want without going into space. They will get crushed trying to get their stuff TO the ground fight. The empire will annihilate all their vehicles and equiptment while in transit, hungry and starving soldiers dont fight well. Even if the EMPIRE attacked THEM, theres still only so much they can have/get there, while the empire courdons off their orbit stopping all supplies, then they send in the droids, which are easy to make, lay waste eventually to whats on that planet, fly in more stuff, maybe make new droid factory, and move on. The entire concept of a ground war is impossible.

Not necessarily - not when the battle is static and around one planet. I stated before that I think the one huge and showstopping advantage the GE has is their awsome Hyperspace Technology - traversing a galaxy in a few weeks is just mindboggingly beyond any other tech that it becomes ridiculous.

BUT. If, as this scenario seems to suggest, the battle is about one planet or even one system, that advantage suddenly becomes meaningless.
I don't think that either the IoM has worse ships or weapons when it comes to slugging it out on sublight speeds (to the contrary, ISDs would be considered Escorts or light cruisers by the IoM). So in system, they could force their way into orbit and drop their troops much more effectively then the GE (being more used to huge scale planetary landings under fire).

So, I think the scenario can still be valid, as long as you come up with a reason why it is restricted to one system (which could be done, for example by saying this is the only connection between the universes)

Hastus_Drake wrote:Tie Fighters against Thunderbolts and Lightnings? That would be close but in the end, prolly go to the Imperium, as TIEs simply can't take any punishment - Just hit the Solar panel with an AC round and off he goes (as shown in oh so many movie sequeces), while a Thunderbolt might survive a lascannon hit and fight on.

Survive lascannon shots? Really? With their tremendous AV values? Even THUNDERHAWKS only have AV12. Hydras are effective against them at only S7. What makes you think IoM fighters are suddenly super rugged? Plot armour?

Warlordron'swaagh wrote:I just want to point out all this is moot. I am changing my away from the IoM. Yes they have huge numbers, yes they have cool weapons, but if you want just a ground battle, they still lose. Why? Because you can thave the massive ground battle you want without going into space. They will get crushed trying to get their stuff TO the ground fight. The empire will annihilate all their vehicles and equiptment while in transit, hungry and starving soldiers dont fight well. Even if the EMPIRE attacked THEM, theres still only so much they can have/get there, while the empire courdons off their orbit stopping all supplies, then they send in the droids, which are easy to make, lay waste eventually to whats on that planet, fly in more stuff, maybe make new droid factory, and move on. The entire concept of a ground war is impossible.

No. Just... no.

Just because the GE has a lot of shiny toys does not mean that the Imperium would be helpless in a space battle. I'm not going to go into it in too much detail, as it's a little off-topic, but the average GE vessel is less than a kilometre long - an Imperial-II Class Star Destroyer is only just over 1.5 kilometres long, making it around eight times smaller than an IoM battleship. I doubt the turbolasers of a Star destroyer, fierce as they are, are much match for the kind of over-powered guns an IoM vessel carries.

keezus wrote:

Hastus_Drake wrote:Tie Fighters against Thunderbolts and Lightnings? That would be close but in the end, prolly go to the Imperium, as TIEs simply can't take any punishment - Just hit the Solar panel with an AC round and off he goes (as shown in oh so many movie sequeces), while a Thunderbolt might survive a lascannon hit and fight on.

Survive lascannon shots? Really? With their tremendous AV values? Even THUNDERHAWKS only have AV12. Hydras are effective against them at only S7. What makes you think IoM fighters are suddenly super rugged? Plot armour?

We are talking fluffy here, you can't attach tabletop values to the GE stuff anyway. Read Double Eagle for example, both Imperial and Chaos Flyers do often survive glancing hits from Heavy Bolters, Autocannons and even Lascannons. On the other hand, no TIE Fighter survived even being looked at squarely - ever. X-Wings would be an entirely different thing, but we are talking GE here.

I say Imperium of man HANDS DOWN. All the Imperium would have to do is blow up kamino (and whatever planets produce clones) by means of Exterminatus and just mop up the rest by using legions of IG and Space Marine Chapters. But if the Imperium fails.....send in Chaos! >


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Oops, forgot we were talking about the GE not clones...lol. my bad. I still say Imperium FTW!

Lord Demon wrote: It would be like throwing a poodle in a pool with sharks.

Oh, that's just sad

nosferatu1001 wrote:Just to correct Grey Templar, not ALL poiwer weapons have a solid core - the oldest (and therefore best) are much more like lightsabres, just a hilt projecting an energy field.

never read that anywhere, source?

looking at Lexicanum!


Edit: couldn't find it anywhere.

It seems to me that most of you are forgetting about the clones. Now, I used to be a huge fan of Star Wars (at one time I had read all of the books up the New Jedi Order series) and so I might have a little bit more insight than some of you. If any of you had read Karen Travis' books you would know that there are Clone SpecOps with armor that can survive direct impact from a missile type projectile (not to mention lasers). Also, notice how the clones killed the Jedi in the movies. Even though the Jedi could sense malicious thoughts, they still died to the clones. This is due to the clones having no sense of right or wrong so any commanding order would be present in their minds as a right thing to do (I only mention this due to the fact of psykers and wonder if this might affect them). The clones also have larger numbers. While humans reproduce it takes the children 17-18 years before they can fight, then there are birth deformations, plus training. Meanwhile the clones are grown in a couple months and fully trained in a year. I shall also say that Clones are experts in close combat and use vibro-blades that are kind of like power weapons. And last I would like to remind you all that the Clones have advanced technology in those suits of theirs that allows them to have a HUD like you see in video games that provides them with a map, night vision, heat vision, etc.

I left out the Storms as they are just Clones that made it through the Clone Wars and therefore have better tech than the Clones.

And Hastus_Drake I would like to say that Kamino alone produced some millions and near the end of the Clone War, there were many other facilities opened.

Grey - Eisenhorn, certainly

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Power_Weapons - second paragraph down.

Grey Templar wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Just to correct Grey Templar, not ALL poiwer weapons have a solid core - the oldest (and therefore best) are much more like lightsabres, just a hilt projecting an energy field.

never read that anywhere, source?

looking at Lexicanum!


Edit: couldn't find it anywhere.

What he means is called Energy Sword or so I think. Its in some older sources and I think Dark Heresy or the new Rogue Trader has it somwhere. Thats Archeotech from the Dark Age of Technology. Without remebering the actual name though, I cannot give you any online sources.


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Whatsit Tooya wrote:It seems to me that most of you are forgetting about the clones. Now, I used to be a huge fan of Star Wars (at one time I had read all of the books up the New Jedi Order series) and so I might have a little bit more insight than some of you. If any of you had read Karen Travis' books you would know that there are Clone SpecOps with armor that can survive direct impact from a missile type projectile (not to mention lasers). Also, notice how the clones killed the Jedi in the movies. Even though the Jedi could sense malicious thoughts, they still died to the clones. This is due to the clones having no sense of right or wrong so any commanding order would be present in their minds as a right thing to do (I only mention this due to the fact of psykers and wonder if this might affect them). The clones also have larger numbers. While humans reproduce it takes the children 17-18 years before they can fight, then there are birth deformations, plus training. Meanwhile the clones are grown in a couple months and fully trained in a year. I shall also say that Clones are experts in close combat and use vibro-blades that are kind of like power weapons. And last I would like to remind you all that the Clones have advanced technology in those suits of theirs that allows them to have a HUD like you see in video games that provides them with a map, night vision, heat vision, etc.

I left out the Storms as they are just Clones that made it through the Clone Wars and therefore have better tech than the Clones.

All well and good (although even more shame on them to be regularily beaten by muppets and young farmboys). But even when every one of them is worth half a squad of Guardsmen, they still would be swamped. I couldn't find any numbers of how many clones where made, but let it be even 100 million, then they still would be at a 10:1 disadvantage against any serious Crusade Force. The Imperium of man: Throw Troops, Kit and random stuff at any problem until it either goes away or not hungry anymore.

it seems weapons like that would be way to rare to even consider in this discussion as a counter to lightsabres.

@Whatsit Tooya:

The IoM uses cloning, too. It is officially forbidden, but the Death Korps of Krieg uses artifical uteri and probably accelerates breeding, too. The IoM has quite similar tech regarding making new soldiers if necessary.

And I wouldn't agree that vibro blades are anywhere near power weapons. Vibro blades - as the name already tells us - are about a conventional blade vibrating at high speed, resulting in a high-frequency cutting motion that supports the wielder's effort of cutting into an enemy. If I'm not mistaken, that's about it - the blade may be monomolecular and razor-sharp, but that holds true for every normal Space Marine Combat Knife(TM).

A power weapon can cut Terminator armour in half. This stuff was made to withstand the powers inside a plasma reactor. Plasma fire of thousands of degrees of celsius (S7 AP2) is the only other thing that gets through this stuff on a regular basis. A vibro blade is not up to this challenge, I fear.

I'm surprised nobody's posted this yet:

http://www.merzo.net/index.html

Go there. An Imperial Star Destroyer is roughly the same size as a COBRA CLASS DESTROYER. Anyone who's played BFG knows this is about the smallest, crappiest starship the Imperium fields.


That being said, the Executor Super Star Destroyer is a little more than TWICE the size of a Retribution-class Battleship, so it might be a tough nut to crack.

Still though, I think that shows fairly well that the Imperium could definitely make it to the ground without much trouble, so a ground war could definitely be fought!

It's also worth noting that while the IoM used SHIELDS, the GE uses Deflector fields. Difference being IoM's function more like what you see in Star Trek, an invisible barrier that stops things dead-on, absorbing the energy until they can't take anymore and collapse. Anyone who saw Episode IV knows that most shots that were well-aimed kept killing all the fighters in one shot. I always wondered why all the talk of double-front deflector screens and such never made much difference - their fields are meant to DEFLECT a shot that's coming in at an angle or in other words shrug off a shot that, while not dead-on, could still cause significant damage. Any well-aimed shot that goes straight in, though, will punch out a GE fighter of almost any type in a single shot.

As for Marauders taking lascannon hits, I think he was referring to how the rules work. You can shake, stun, blow off a gun, or at the "worst" [chain reaction aside] blow off a structure point from a thunderhawk or Marauder, meaning they can take several hits before going down, theoretically. Most GE ships go down with a single shot unless they're capital ships [or crewed by a main character].

a Vibro blade would probably have, in the game, Rending OR a special rule saying it ignores armour saves of 5+ and 6+ in close combat.


i am not even sure if vibroblades are still even used during the time of the Galactic Empire. what with the rarity of Lightsabre wielders in that time a close combat weapon would be a little pointless. also the disappearance of Cortosis would make their ability to deflect a Lightsabres blade non existant.

@Witzkatz:

I must say that I am sorry for my lack of knowledge concerning the guard as I have had little interest in them though I plan to start Steel Legion soon and am reading the Gaunt's Ghosts series.

As for the vibroblade: the weapon's hilt or handle usually contained a compact ultrasonic generator, causing the blade to vibrate at an incredible speed, making even the slightest glancing blow become a gaping wound. It could be fitted with cortosis weave, allowing it to parry the blows of lightsabers and energy swords.

So these weapons are pretty strong since they can stop a lightsaber (which can cut through an iron bulkhead). I will agree that they are probably not as strong as a power weapon though.

Also:



nuff said


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Whatsit Tooya wrote:@Witzkatz:

I must say that I am sorry for my lack of knowledge concerning the guard as I have had little interest in them though I plan to start Steel Legion soon and am reading the Gaunt's Ghosts series.

As for the vibroblade: the weapon's hilt or handle usually contained a compact ultrasonic generator, causing the blade to vibrate at an incredible speed, making even the slightest glancing blow become a gaping wound. It could be fitted with cortosis weave, allowing it to parry the blows of lightsabers and energy swords.

So these weapons are pretty strong since they can stop a lightsaber (which can cut through an iron bulkhead). I will agree that they are probably not as strong as a power weapon though.

Agree. Don't know how often they where given out, but in all fairness one must say that sending out infantry without any kind of Melee Weapon or Bayonet / Tool would be stupid, so Clones/Stormies should have something like this equipped.

probably because a Power weapon and a Lightabre function differently.

a Lightsabre simply super heats the target, melting it away.


a Power weapon destabilizes the atomic structure before the actual blade slices through it(or crushes it in the case of a power fist) therefore a Cortosis weave blade would be cut in 2 by a power weapon.


Energy blades probably operate on a similer principal to a Lightsabre and so would be deflected by cortosis.

@Grey Templar:

Cortosis never disappeared it just became rare. The elite clone commandos kept their retractable Knuckle plate vibro blades as their job included assassination.

You were correct concerning the energy blade.

Grey Templar wrote:it seems weapons like that would be way to rare to even consider in this discussion as a counter to lightsabres.

Yep Ultra-Rare, but Hero Characters could have one. Certainly no simple officer or even Trooper.

if Eisenhorn is the only real mention of a Energy weapon then we could assume that the number of existing examples of this Tech could be counted on your fingers.

@Grey Templar: Agreed. I would go so far and hazard that Dan Abnett just thought "star-wars-like" power weapons are cooler and therefore gave Eisenhorn one of those just for giggles. They are so uniquely mentioned in fluff that they should probably be left out of this comparisons.