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Seriously, If you are not in the "balls of steel" tourney scene and people are not "hey look! I found an super cool unit combo" (because everyone else knows it too), then the Eldar codex has a rather high number of surprisingly good units. I mean how many units which were totally useless in 3rd edition were buffed? I didn't count but boy, there were many.

Greets
Schepp himself

P.S.  the rant somewhat reminded me of this guy... www.youtube.com/watch

I've played Eldar since the RT days and I've seen the hate over time.....in 2nd edition the Eldar certainly had their fair bit of cheese if someone so chose to use it...I think much of the hate still originates from this time.

I think the main reason you hear ledar players complain about marines is all the complaints we have always heard from them.

Star cannons were simply too good because they ignored their armour and were simply good at killing everything except for mainline tanks. However, the problem really wasnt the starcannon itself but rather the crappiness of out other weapons combined with the fact that everyone in the entire universe walks around with power armour on......if everyone played armoured companies I think we'd see lots more brightlances huh? (lol)

so....when the assault cannon got it's massive boost at no cost it then became the default weapon of choice for lots of marine players. They had no problem whatsoever of sticking 13 of them in a list and thinking that it is fluffy....I use 2 star cannons and still get cries from my opponents ( I now use none at all).

 

I've noticed that some believe that the new eldar codex has lots of unplayable options....I don't really agree here. Compared to our last dex we have a much higher percentage of playable units than we had before. There are of course units that will be outclassed slightly by others but not everyone is playing hardcore tourney matches all of the time are they?

Lazarus.

so, ehm...I didn't manage to play with my Eldar yet....so what are those 5 super untis everyone talks about?

This reminds me. When you get back, would you like to play a game against my eldar

(hahaha)

"Hey, wait a second, those look like space marines wearing funny hats..."

"Have another beer."

Posted By Anung Un Rama on 04/22/2007 1:20 AM
so, ehm...I didn't manage to play with my Eldar yet....so what are those 5 super untis everyone talks about?

1. Eldrad
2. Super Falcons
3. Harlies
4. Fire Prisms (?)
5. ?

5. Snakes on a plane.

How is Eldrad that more kickdonkey than any other farseerjoe around?

Fire Prisms? not that über, imo, good...yes, but über...no.

Falcons are nasty, especially combined with harlequins or fire dragons (damnit, doesn't anyone write things out these days?).

But what is up with all the other choices?

War Walkers
Guardians
Jetbikes
Warp Spiders
Banshees/Scorpions
Shining Spears
Wraithlords
Dark Reapers
Autarch
Farseer
...

Are these units all bad? I don't think so...and I honestly think you can do some interesting builds with them.

And seriously, Armies that don't have one or two powerunits like carnifexes, assaultcannon, falcons ect. are regarded "the suxxor", see Black Templar or Dark Angels as reference...so what's going to be, ladies and gentlemen???

Greets
Schepp himself

Personally I think we should just stop all the whining about marines and nids and eldar. If one army is uber powerful then fine lets all play with that army. But please lets not get into silly arguments about I play eldar or marines and my army is not cheese. If you can take 9AC in a marine army then do it, If you can take 9 starcannons then do it.

Just dont say I play orks or DE or whatever and they are crap. If you feel that strongly change your army to something more kickass. I play SW and get owened by eldar, so what If I feel that bad then I could always change my army but I dont as I love the SW to much and dont want to play with space fairies. I did try smurfs last year and did alot better with them but did not have as much fun winning with them then losing with my wolves.

Eldrad is Toughness 4 so doesnt die to Perils of the warp.

Falcon is Death-Proof delivery systems for harlequins

Fireprisms I dont see as overpowered

Firedragons got an unessarry buff. They went from S6 to S8 Meltaguns and dropped a point. Why ?

Warpspiders I love and they arent terribly overpowered too bad I cant do an army of them.

Harlies are kinda overpriced Genetealers that cant be shot at easily but with a falcon who needs the shadowseer powers.

Dark Reapers got better with the new dex and Have a good anti-MEQ and anti-Horde  capabilities  so i dont see why  not to take them.

Its sad to say that there are 2-3 no-brainer choices in an Eldar codex and the same can be said for Nids. Those no-brainer choices are mainly in the elites and Heavy support and takes away from other choices in the codex. I understand why Eldrad has to be taken because it is very likely to have a perils of the warp attack and fry your beloved farseer.

Posted By beef on 04/22/2007 11:44 AM
Personally I think we should just stop all the whining about marines and nids and eldar. If one army is uber powerful then fine lets all play with that army. But please lets not get into silly arguments about I play eldar or marines and my army is not cheese. If you can take 9AC in a marine army then do it, If you can take 9 starcannons then do it.

Just dont say I play orks or DE or whatever and they are crap. If you feel that strongly change your army to something more kickass. I play SW and get owened by eldar, so what If I feel that bad then I could always change my army but I dont as I love the SW to much and dont want to play with space fairies. I did try smurfs last year and did alot better with them but did not have as much fun winning with them then losing with my wolves.

Heh. at first that post annoyed me, but then I realised you are right- I could go out and buy a more powerful army, but I love my orks. Of course, this means that GW aren't getting any money from me or others like me, but there ya go.

I love coming back and reading this after the fact. 

Even sober it's still all true, I really can't stand the friggin space elves.   It's also amazing how well Firefox makes me correct spelling errors even pretty wasted.

My main gripe with the Eldar is that you can lock up close to 600 Points if you want that the enemy can simply never even touch in a game most likely.  It's sick.  No one really gets such a stupidly near gauranteed way to deliver elite, fragile assault troops into combat, safely, like the Eldar do.  And for an army that's supposed to be "powerful, deadly, but fragile" they've got the toughest crap in the game, Wraithlords, Falcons, Fire-Prisms.   And they get, bar none, the best assault unit in the game -  Harlies.  They out genestealer, genestealers - for less points - AND they get this cool crap where they can't be targeted by shooting at long range - AND they get special crap that lets them just ignore terrain - AND they get grenades that make sitting in cover against them useless. 

Look at this from the perspective of someone who plays Orks or even non-Godzilla Nids, and you'll understand the sentiment of "F#@$* the Eldar".

Ed, you may have to wait till like June for me to get done all my travel, but I'll gladly take any chance to krump some panzees.  Course it'll be using my Marines instead of the Orks, naturally.

But thats just it, yes harlies and and holofields are overpowered, but take those away and what are Eldar left with? Especially considering many units got a nerf for no other reason than people already owned them.

Eldar players aren't happy about this either.

It would be interesting to see how competitive the codex is without those 2. Hmm

Posted By IntoTheRain on 04/22/2007 5:00 PM
But thats just it, yes harlies and and holofields are overpowered, but take those away and what are Eldar left with? Especially considering many units got a nerf for no other reason than people already owned them.

Eldar players aren't happy about this either.

It would be interesting to see how competitive the codex is without those 2. Hmm

Its not that bad. I dont use either falcons nor harlies and I am able to play a fairly balanced game. Though with some time under ny belt, I am sure I will be able to make people fear even warwalkers, just because of experiential finesse.

Posted By IntoTheRain on 04/22/2007 5:00 PM
But thats just it, yes harlies and and holofields are overpowered, but take those away and what are Eldar left with? Especially considering many units got a nerf for no other reason than people already owned them.

Eldar players aren't happy about this either.

It would be interesting to see how competitive the codex is without those 2. Hmm

Ok, without Harlies it'd be a unit of Banshee's or something with a Farseer in tow for Doom.   Without Holofields, yeah the army wouldn't be all that great anymore.  Much like how we've seen with Dark Angels, when you take away the small Las/Plas and limit the number of assault cannons, the regular Marine list somewhat falls apart competition wise.

There's still the lovely combo of Eldrad + Avitar.  And without Holofield Tanks, Wraithlords would become the default choice again for Heavy. 

Now once you go outside the stupidly broken units, there are still a good amount of choices.  Pathfinders are great.  Shining Spears are decent, and then there's Snakes on a Plane (wave serpent style).  Jetbikes give you a great cheap little min/max way of satisfying your troops requirement so you can move on to other areas of the list if you don't want to use Pathfinders. 

The point is, lots of stuff is broken.  Marines are broken, Godzilla Nids are, Mech Tau are (though not as good as the other two), Chaos is very broken but they're up for a redo.  The problem is that Eldar's broken stuff is heads and shoulders above the rest.   If you take 3 Falcons, and then 3 squads of 6 *insert aspect warriors/Harlies* to load them up, you can easily cram 1k points into 3 near indestructible units that the enemy can likely never touch all game.  If you get an unfavorable matchup you can turtle and VP denial, using the last 500 points of your army to kill more than their worth and win.

What pisses me off most is that the Falcons give you impunity to ram-rod yourself where ever you want with little to no fear of retribution of what you're doing.  I've been on the recieving end of stuff like that.

Play Orks and fight against Necrons with 1 or 2 Monoliths.  Guess what, you're going to get ram-rodded and there's not much you can do to stop it.  Play say, DE or Orks, or GK's, or whatever vs. Mech Tau where everything hides in Skimmers.  Nothing you can really do, just die.

When one player gets something that can just run roughshod over another opponent it's a sign of something bad in game design.  Eldar get this kind of situation almost every game and it's a huge advantage that an opponent has to overcome (other than praying that they can't hide all the skimmers, and  you get first turn).

(other than praying that they can't hide all the skimmers, and you get first turn).

No you dont want first turn against those fairies, hide and let them have first turn. rmemeber if you start first they have the last turn to send those wave serpents or falcons, cant remeber which that has hidden all game and in the final turn (theres if you went first) moves 36" and claims a table querter or at least contest the one you had fought long and hard for.

Phil Kelly wrote the eldar codex and it is his fav army. What happens to developers that tool out their fav lists? Just look at Pete and his IW.

To me the new eldar are both pathetic and brilliant at the same time. From my experience in third edition all eldar armies looked virtually the same and that stigmatized the army... you know the drill -> Banshees in a Wave Serprent, three Falcons totally loaded, Farseer on a jetbike, etc. Going by the most typical lists I see now all that has happened is people have replaced Banshees with Harlequins. Oh I forgot to mention snakes in a plane. I think there is ample opportunity to do new things with eldar that would be far superior to the skimmer tank heavy lists we all despise. If I did not hate eldar so much maybe I would do something truly unique with them.

- Greenie

I forgot to mention that Eldrad is so g3hy there is no way I will ever field Mephiston in my new BA army. It is all about the principle for me. At least Nidz are truly customizable and you do not need to field some cheesy special bug to lead your horde to victory.

- Greenie

Isn't customizing Carnifexes an example of fielding a "cheesy special bug"?

Or rather, 3-6 "cheesy special bugs"?

Posted By malfred on 04/22/2007 7:36 PM
Isn't customizing Carnifexes an example of fielding a "cheesy special bug"?

Or rather, 3-6 "cheesy special bugs"?

It is cheesy BUT then you know what 40K as a whole has become a game of Cheese.  Thats what defines the game now.. 

Once apon a time it was not like this. . /. .

Posted By beef on 04/22/2007 9:42 PM

Posted By malfred on 04/22/2007 7:36 PM
Isn't customizing Carnifexes an example of fielding a "cheesy special bug"?

Or rather, 3-6 "cheesy special bugs"?

It is cheesy BUT then you know what 40K as a whole has become a game of Cheese.  Thats what defines the game now.. 

Once apon a time it was not like this. . /. .

It's still not with my opponents.

I remember facing 27 Wolfguard Terminators all with Assault Cannons in 2nd editions. The tournament scene has always been like this. The difference now is just the focus with internet discussion boards, not any change in the players or the game.

Posted By Asmodai on 04/22/2007 9:56 PM

Posted By beef on 04/22/2007 9:42 PM

Posted By malfred on 04/22/2007 7:36 PM
Isn't customizing Carnifexes an example of fielding a "cheesy special bug"?

Or rather, 3-6 "cheesy special bugs"?

It is cheesy BUT then you know what 40K as a whole has become a game of Cheese.  Thats what defines the game now.. 

Once apon a time it was not like this. . /. .

It's still not with my opponents.

I remember facing 27 Wolfguard Terminators all with Assault Cannons in 2nd editions. The tournament scene has always been like this. The difference now is just the focus with internet discussion boards, not any change in the players or the game.

Asmodai as Ambassador Kosh: "It has ALWAYS been there."

Or something like that.

Posted By Asmodai on 04/22/2007 9:56 PM


I remember facing 27 Wolfguard Terminators all with Assault Cannons in 2nd editions.

I'm not ashamed to say that I had that many in my old SW army...

It was you! You bastard!

(Or maybe not. It seems to have been a common tactic.)

Ok...here's my list I've been working on assembling for a while now.  Play testing has been extremely effective and it has shown itself to be a strong list while not using many of the magic "Top 5" units in the codex. 
------------------------------------------
Eldar List: Elearon's Blade

HQ: Farseer- Elearon Truthseer
   Witchblade, Shuriken Pistol, Rune Armor, Ghosthelm, Spirit Stones &
   Runes of Warding.  Powers: Doom, Mind War, & Fortune

HQ: Autarch- Prince Karrath or Ulthwe' .
   Plasma & Haywire Grenades, ForceShield, Warp Jump Generator, Scorpion 
   Chain Sword & Fusion Gun. 

Troops: Black Gaurdians of Ulthwe
   13x Black Gaurdians w/ Shuriken catapults.
   1x Scatterlaser heavy weapon platform.
   1x Warlock w/ Witchblade, Shuriken Pistol, Rune Armor & Conceal.

Troops: Dire Avengers .
   9x Dire Avengers w/ Avenger Catapults.
   1x Dire Avenger Exarch w/ Shimmerfield, Power Weapon, Defend, & Bladestorm.
-Wave Serpent Transport Tank 
   Spirit Stones, Vectored Engines, Star Engines, Twinlinked scatter lasers
   & Hull Mounted Shuriken Cannon.

Troops: Dire Avengers
   9x Dire Avengers w/ Avenger Catapults.
   1x Dire Avenger Exarch w/ Shimmerfield, Power Weapon, Defend, & Bladestorm.
-Wave Serpent Transport Tank 
   Spirit Stones, Vectored Engines, Star Engines, Twinlinked scatter lasers
   & Hull Mounted Shuriken Cannon.

Fast Attack: Warp Spiders
   9x Warp Spiders w/ Death Spinners
   1x Warp Spider Exarch w/ Dual Death Spinners, Surprise Assault & Withdraw.

Heavy Support: Support Weapon Battery
   2x Support Weapon Batteries w/ Vibro Cannons
   4x Guardian Crew. 
   1x Warlock w/ Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade, & Conceal. 

Heavy Support: Fire Prism
   Spirit Stones, Vectored Engines, Holofields, Hull Mounted Shuriken Cannon
   & Prism Cannon

Heavy Support: Fire Prism
   Spirit Stones, Vectored Engines, Holofields, Hull Mounted Shuriken Cannon
   & Prism Cannon

-------------------------------------------------------------

It's a little shy of 1850 points, but the concept is sound as I have discovered through play-testing the list.  Still working out how to spend the last 20 some odd points I have left over.

There are 4 skimmers in the list, sure, but only 2 have holofields.  Which if I may interject help with overall tank survivability, but do nothing about preventing the tanks from being crew-shaken and missing a turn of firing.

I don't like the 'snakes on a plane' or Harlies accept in a specialized list.  I'll field some Harliquins eventually, and may find a way to include them into another tournament list.  They're cool units in their own right, but I happen to really dig the dire avengers and the raw dakka they can lay down when backed up by the rest of the army list and my doom-seer backing them up. 

I can't help people abusing the 'better' choices in the list, but the above list has met with *excellent* success in recent games.  Just pointing out a different point of view regarding the new Eldar list and how it can be played.

Take it easy everyone.

-RT-

It's hard not to choose the "better" choices when everyone else at the tourney is doing the same damn thing.....

 

Eldrad is viewed by many as a mandatory choice....not so much for what he does but for what he doesn't do....he doesn't explode when trying to cast a power. (lol) - no wonder we are a dying race.

People will always complain and about every list when they lose.....they don't say too much when they win.

Lazarus.

Posted By Lazarus on 04/23/2007 4:01 AM

It's hard not to choose the "better" choices when everyone else at the tourney is doing the same damn thing.....

 

Eldrad is viewed by many as a mandatory choice....not so much for what he does but for what he doesn't do....he doesn't explode when trying to cast a power. (lol) - no wonder we are a dying race.

People will always complain and about every list when they lose.....they don't say too much when they win.

Lazarus.

By that logic every SM is justified in taking Las/Plas+Assault Cannons because every other Marine player at the tourney is.

Still I'm not going to argue that at a tournament, you take the best you got.

This isn't complaining about a list that I've lost to, I've beaten the list and I've lost to it.  I'm complaining about it because even considering all the other broken armies in the game, the Eldar take the cake as far as "no brain required".   And they've been that way for a long while, all the new dex did is change the units required.

That and it's a damn affront to having a balanced game, or should I even say a fun game.

No one should regularly come across a unit that can just run roughshod around them with immunity.  Existing cases like that (say Orks/DE vs Monoliths, GK's vs Tank Heavy Forces, etc) are an example of bad army design that can be rectified in a new codex, and these are rare matchups where one player can dominate the game because they have a few units that their opponent can do nothing about.  That makes things ENTIRELY one sided and unfun.

The Eldar get this vs every army.  Nothing out assaults Harlies.  Nothing stands a reasonable chance of killing Falcons.

It's not unbeatable, but that doesn't make it exactly enjoyable either. 

Plus it's not like 40k is devoid of armies that render an assault army near useless in 4th ed.  Tau, Necrons, and Eldar do that real well already.  The thing is, Eldar do it while at the same time having a better assault unit than what you've probably got anyway - and if they can't win, then they don't have to come out of their little tank and they can just stay away from you the entire game and use their shooting.  It's pitiful.

That's the reason I made the thread.

I thought you made the thread because you were wasted and pissed off?

Greets
Schepp himself

Posted by Voodoo boyz

By that logic every SM is justified in taking Las/Plas+Assault Cannons because every other Marine player at the tourney is.

And that's pretty much what I see. You justify it however you want I'm affraid.

Still I'm not going to argue that at a tournament, you take the best you got.

Exactly. However, I do not always do that. In 3rd edition I took a fire prism & dire avengers to a tourney back of course when those units sucked. I also only used 2 star cannons in the entire list....I still got my comp slammed.

At adepticon I used only 2 grav tanks, no harlies and no star cannons at all.....3 units of guardians. People still complained.....

This isn't complaining about a list that I've lost to, I've beaten the list and I've lost to it.  I'm complaining about it because even considering all the other broken armies in the game, the Eldar take the cake as far as "no brain required".   And they've been that way for a long while, all the new dex did is change the units required.

They can't take the cake as easy as some of the other armies...they do not dominate the tourney scene as regularly as others do. (especially where comp is involved)

That and it's a damn affront to having a balanced game, or should I even say a fun game.

Who lied to you and said this game was balanced? The game is fun if you want it to be. Tourneys however tend to bring out the hard core competitor in all of us.

No one should regularly come across a unit that can just run roughshod around them with immunity.  Existing cases like that (say Orks/DE vs Monoliths, GK's vs Tank Heavy Forces, etc) are an example of bad army design that can be rectified in a new codex, and these are rare matchups where one player can dominate the game because they have a few units that their opponent can do nothing about.  That makes things ENTIRELY one sided and unfun.

Every list has it's achilles heel. My Eldar usually have an extremely tough time against Necrons and sisters of battle in tourneys. Necrons because of the damn monilths....I have to build to them specifically which makes me less effective vs. my most commonly faced opponents.

Sisters due to faith points....since we rarely play a full turn game there is no worry about running out of them later in the game lol.

As far as just running roughshod with immunity...... I don't ever see this with my army. Sure, I may outplay the other guy, roll better than the other guy or even surprise him with stuff that he didn't understand the rules for...but I don't just run over him.

The Eldar get this vs every army.  Nothing out assaults Harlies.  Nothing stands a reasonable chance of killing Falcons.

Yes, harlies are indeed awesome. GW wants to sell models and indeed will due to the rules. Falcons are indeed tough....probably becasue the rest of our stuff is soo weak. Drop pods deal with harlies nicely....try facing 11 of them in one game...that's pretty fun huh?

Falcons don't always have to be killed either. The guy who uses several has lots of points tied up in his army that you can render unable to fire.

It's not unbeatable, but that doesn't make it exactly enjoyable either. 

The same can be said for lots of different armies.  Gee, I love facing the 9 oblit Iron warrior list. Gee, I love facing siren daemon bomb lists. Gee, I love facing the infiltrating chaos horde with all tank hunter auttocannons / ML's.....notice I have'nt even expanded out of chaos yet? (lol)

Plus it's not like 40k is devoid of armies that render an assault army near useless in 4th ed.  Tau, Necrons, and Eldar do that real well already.  The thing is, Eldar do it while at the same time having a better assault unit than what you've probably got anyway - and if they can't win, then they don't have to come out of their little tank and they can just stay away from you the entire game and use their shooting.  It's pitiful.

They won't be shooting when the tank is shaken.

Lazarus.

I was wasted and pissed, I still really do hate the eldar though. Even when I'm sober. Warning though, I'm drunk again.



Yeah, but it's still no where as bad as what Eldar can do. Like there are armies that can laugh at termies and the marine cheese.



Look, if you take non-optimal stuff to a tournamanet, more power to you. I've been doing the "tournament marines" for a while and you know what it sucks to play with. That's why instead of going to the GT in Nov, I'm stopping at the Baltimore Games Day.

If people still complained, well you know what, *fudge* em. Banshee's I can deal with, it's the damned harlies in a falcon that piss me off the most.



What? Dude the highest UKGT battlepoints was Eldar. Adepticon (which is all no-holds-barred) was Eldar. No, when it comes to making the cheesy list Eldar take the cake. And you know what, they're going to take more of the cake when Chaos is nerfed. And when Codex Marines gets a redo ala dark angels, then it'll be them an nids.



Yeah, but what pisses people off is when you take tournament armies to friendly games. But OK you've got a fair point there. I still think the Eldar tourny lists are better than the other ones though, in such a stupid ass way too.



No, see this is where I disagreed with you enough to reply (because you are totally a rational poster on here). But I'm totally disagreeing with you.

Yes every list has it's achilles heel. Sure.

But no one has an achillees heel like say Orks vs a Lith. No one has that. Or like GK's vs an army with like 3 Predator class tanks. Nope, NADA. No one has crap like that....EXCEPT WHEN THEY FIGHT ELDAR!

See when your opponent can be like "HAHA I'm going to just zoom over here and there's nothing you can do about it except rolling like 4 sixes in a row" then there's something friggin wrong with that. Monoliths can do that to Orks, DE, and GK's for the most part. And it shows a problem with those 3 Lists. Or like a list with heavy armor vs like Kroot, Orks, or GK's. See, the game stops being fun, but it's a problem with those armies, not so much with their opponent.

With Eldar, it's HAHA here's my Falcon (lol), I have harlies (lol), go ahead try and stop me (lol).

And with almost any army list you're just hosed. If you don't have the mobility to just move far enough away to force the falcon to redeploy, you're done. And it's not even as bad as Demon bombs! Because they can do that kind of crap too, just deliver a squad with nothing you can do. But at least with them you can really spread out, sacrifice a squad, and then nuke the demons. Not so with Harlies. And if their deployment is good enough to stop you from wanting to get out and assault, YOU DON'T HAVE TO! You can pick your fights! You can sit with ONE THOUSAND POINTS in Falcons, in SIX SCORING UNITS, and never come the freak out if you don't want to. And that's 1k points your opponent will not touch barring a miracle of the dice.

So no, this is very different than a normal army with an achillees heel.

Yeah vs. Necrons you got it tough. And you know what, I hate eldar enough that I'm considering starting Necrons, simply so I can go to tournaments and F*** with eldar players. Plus they're like you know, decent and fun to use, unlike my Orks.



Harlies not in falcons aren't that gamebreaking. They're still broken, just not "OMFG BBQ SOMEONE CALL PETE HAINES HE LEFT A CODEX ENTRY BEHIND WHEN HE GOT FIRED!" broken when not in a squad of 6, with a shadowseer, in falcons. It's when you combine them that they become SO FRIGGIN STUPID and broken. Or you could go for the not so obvious cheese in the list, with just say 3 Holofield tanks. I'll give people props for using Fireprisms. They can be shaken and thus be rendered inneffective. Unlike Falcons, who will always taxi around their cargo, safely, with impunity, and if you DO go for killing one, there's probably another with the same cargo in the list, and you're not shooting at other targets. What was the title of the thread again? Oh yeah F@*$ ELDAR.



Yes that's very true. If I roll up with say slowed "I hate myself Orks/GK's" at a tournament, I'm not going to have a lot of fun without beer. And even then it'll have little to do with the game. But at least if I take say cheesed out mech tau or marines, or Godzilla to a tournament, I can face off against other tourny lists (other than Eldar) and have a really tight and close game. Before Eldar, all the other 4th ed codex's were pretty tough near eachother. Not anymore with these last two. Eldar are like Mike Tyson at kids boxing camp (where everyone has big ears), and Dark Angels got lost on their way to the special 40k olympics.

And for all your examples, Chaos are looking to get nerfed to hell. With that toned down, the "super" abusive lists in 40k go down to Marines, Nids, and Eldar. Tau are close, but seriously not that bad compared to the other two.



Most assault armies will lack the fire power to shake the falcons that much (especially 3 of them), but regardless there can be enough shooting in the list to just kill the bare minimum and then play VP denial for the rest of the game, or say just send the harlies in late in the game and let them clean up without the time left for retribution.

Seriously, don't take this the wrong way or personally. You're not really the worst person who plays eldar, in fact it sounds like you're one of the better people. But in the game of 40k Eldar are standing near the top and in such a stupid way, such a stupid broken way that just defies logic. I can't hold it against them 100%, since without their units of SUPER DOOM, then things can suck and they'll lose to the other cheesy lists.

The problem is that they're at the top, and they've been at the top, and how they got to the top, it was freakin stupid as hell (holofields and harlies are just DUMB GAME DESIGN). That's why I hate Eldar.

That and the fact that their players still have the audacity to complain about Marines or any other list for that matter.