Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I just found my new sig...

BYE

I like voodoo boyz when he is drunk. His last post made me laugh so hard people at work are wondering what the hell I am doing.

Anyways, I can agree somewhat with what Voodoo is saying, especially regarding falcons. its one reason I dont take them, and thats said while I am making a saim hann list.

Just to aadd fuel to voodoo boys pperspective, eldar have the most broken combat patrol army ever. I have yet to lose with it, even against tau who can make some of the better combat patrol lists.

1 squad of 3 gaurdian jetbikes with a shuricannon
2 squads of 2 warwalkers with scasers
1 squad of 2 warwalkers with  shuricannons.

thats 47 str6 shots.  thats a crippling first turn for the opponent.

You show me another army that can pour out that much firepower in a 400 pt game. You just cant show me because it doesnt exist outside the ken of eldar.

Whats worse is that combat patrol doesnt follow the std force org chart, so each one of those warwalkers can be their own unit, making it even more difficult to take them out. Thats an extreme  but very likely example of what you might see in a combat patrol tourney.

But he is right about the recent turn of events. After jervis gets ahold of any list after Eldar, they just cannot compete with the 4 codicies before the DA (I dont count the BT as they are nearly as bad as DA)

If HBMC didnt yoink the sig, I know I would have....

Posted by: Voodoo boyz



Yeah, but it's still no where as bad as what Eldar can do. Like there are armies that can laugh at termies and the marine cheese.

I think that there is alot of room for abuse in several different armies out there. My favorite thing at adepticon was listining to the guy who fielded 3 gargauntuan forge world squiggoths against me - telling me how cheesey Eldrad is...all while rolling 75 shots from just those 3 modesl...lol



Look, if you take non-optimal stuff to a tournamanet, more power to you. I've been doing the "tournament marines" for a while and you know what it sucks to play with. That's why instead of going to the GT in Nov, I'm stopping at the Baltimore Games Day.

Funny thing is that even with non optimal stuff you still get complaints....if they are going to complain anyways then what is the point? What always irked me was the marine player that though 3 star cannons were cheesey while he stuffed tons of plasma & assault cannons into his list..lol

 

If people still complained, well you know what, *fudge* em. Banshee's I can deal with, it's the damned harlies in a falcon that piss me off the most.

10 Banshees in a serpent backed up by a doom seer can wreck a whole lot of havoc.....


What? Dude the highest UKGT battlepoints was Eldar. Adepticon (which is all no-holds-barred) was Eldar. No, when it comes to making the cheesy list Eldar take the cake. And you know what, they're going to take more of the cake when Chaos is nerfed. And when Codex Marines gets a redo ala dark angels, then it'll be them an nids.

Eldar do not dominate in non comp tourneys. Also, the UK GT's were likely due to the old craftworld codex which is now gone. There will always be a "top" list. Always something for others to be unhappy with. At least I can say that I've played Eldar since the RT days and I didn't just jump on the bandwagon as alot of other players do with the "oooh, this list is uber!"

Yeah, but what pisses people off is when you take tournament armies to friendly games. But OK you've got a fair point there. I still think the Eldar tourny lists are better than the other ones though, in such a stupid ass way too.

Yes, tourney armies should not go to freindly games. We had a problem in our group where people were wanting to tweak their "no holds barred" Adepticon armies in our local RT's.....not too cool.

No, see this is where I disagreed with you enough to reply (because you are totally a rational poster on here). But I'm totally disagreeing with you.

I'm actually failry irrational...I"m not just doing it right now.

Yes every list has it's achilles heel. Sure.

But no one has an achillees heel like say Orks vs a Lith. No one has that. Or like GK's vs an army with like 3 Predator class tanks. Nope, NADA. No one has crap like that....EXCEPT WHEN THEY FIGHT ELDAR!

I feel like it's orks against a lith when my eldar play them. I've faced 3 + nightbringer with a list that had no real way of dealing with the list other than hoping for a lucky glancing 6'....not that I could afford to even shoot at them. The abiluity to yank units out of CC and then shoot me to death??? Yeah, that certainly qualifies as a heel.

Another heel is terrain & initiative. When the eldar player doesn't have enough terrain to hide behind & loses initiative the game is often over on the very first turn...it's a fairly big gamble that these players take. I only usually use 2 tanks in my list becasue of this....

See when your opponent can be like "HAHA I'm going to just zoom over here and there's nothing you can do about it except rolling like 4 sixes in a row" then there's something friggin wrong with that. Monoliths can do that to Orks, DE, and GK's for the most part. And it shows a problem with those 3 Lists. Or like a list with heavy armor vs like Kroot, Orks, or GK's. See, the game stops being fun, but it's a problem with those armies, not so much with their opponent.

The falcon can't disembak / assault when it moves.....it's not all that hard to keep from happening....no harder than the deamon bomb per say.

With Eldar, it's HAHA here's my Falcon (lol), I have harlies (lol), go ahead try and stop me (lol).

Every army has something.

And with almost any army list you're just hosed. If you don't have the mobility to just move far enough away to force the falcon to redeploy, you're done. And it's not even as bad as Demon bombs! Because they can do that kind of crap too, just deliver a squad with nothing you can do. But at least with them you can really spread out, sacrifice a squad, and then nuke the demons. Not so with Harlies. And if their deployment is good enough to stop you from wanting to get out and assault, YOU DON'T HAVE TO! You can pick your fights! You can sit with ONE THOUSAND POINTS in Falcons, in SIX SCORING UNITS, and never come the freak out if you don't want to. And that's 1k points your opponent will not touch barring a miracle of the dice.

So no, this is very different than a normal army with an achillees heel.

Missions can play a part in this as well...reverse escalation screws up these type lists...nothing like watching your firedragons walk on the board waiting for a falcon that might not show up for awhile...lol

Yeah vs. Necrons you got it tough. And you know what, I hate eldar enough that I'm considering starting Necrons, simply so I can go to tournaments and F*** with eldar players. Plus they're like you know, decent and fun to use, unlike my Orks.

I'd love to play a game against you....long as you only hate my Eldar and not me personally.

I'm soon starting Orks....but mainly for the fun of it.


Harlies not in falcons aren't that gamebreaking. They're still broken, just not "OMFG BBQ SOMEONE CALL PETE HAINES HE LEFT A CODEX ENTRY BEHIND WHEN HE GOT FIRED!" broken when not in a squad of 6, with a shadowseer, in falcons. It's when you combine them that they become SO FRIGGIN STUPID and broken. Or you could go for the not so obvious cheese in the list, with just say 3 Holofield tanks. I'll give people props for using Fireprisms. They can be shaken and thus be rendered inneffective. Unlike Falcons, who will always taxi around their cargo, safely, with impunity, and if you DO go for killing one, there's probably another with the same cargo in the list, and you're not shooting at other targets. What was the title of the thread again? Oh yeah F@*$ ELDAR.

Yeah, the cargo carrying is great but after you drop the cargo and they still shake you then there isn't much you are doing other than trying to find cover to hide behind.

I didn't use harlies at Adepticon but if they had been in the list a falcon & that unit is just shy of 400 points. I would hope that it is capable of something. 

I'm not going to have a lot of fun without beer.

lol! 

And for all your examples, Chaos are looking to get nerfed to hell. With that toned down, the "super" abusive lists in 40k go down to Marines, Nids, and Eldar. Tau are close, but seriously not that bad compared to the other two.

I certianly think that Eldrar were "nerfed" when compared to what they used to do. I think that they are certainly competitive but no more so that the other top tier armies. We just had our codex done so it's going to be this way for awhile.

There is alot more diverstiy avaialble to make the game interesting....the proble doesn't really lie with the Eldar codex but rather what we will be facing with it.

In 3rd edition I switched to a fully mech Biel-Tan list from my foot Ulthwe roots. This was done due to drop pod FOTD, siren daemon bombs and Alaitoc disruption lists....not becasue I wanted to play mech but becuase I was forced to if I wanted a reasonable chance of winning. - not to mention the stupid psychic hood snuffing out an entire council's worth of powers every turn..lol

Star cannons were used by soo many as MEQ's were pretty much the only thing that they faced....



Most assault armies will lack the fire power to shake the falcons that much (especially 3 of them), but regardless there can be enough shooting in the list to just kill the bare minimum and then play VP denial for the rest of the game, or say just send the harlies in late in the game and let them clean up without the time left for retribution.

Most assault armies will have some sort of problems with shooting...at least one would hope. Being able to do everything well makes it tough.

Seriously, don't take this the wrong way or personally. You're not really the worst person who plays eldar, in fact it sounds like you're one of the better people. But in the game of 40k Eldar are standing near the top and in such a stupid way, such a stupid broken way that just defies logic. I can't hold it against them 100%, since without their units of SUPER DOOM, then things can suck and they'll lose to the other cheesy lists.

lol, I don't take it personally.    

The problem is that they're at the top, and they've been at the top, and how they got to the top, it was freakin stupid as hell (holofields and harlies are just DUMB GAME DESIGN). That's why I hate Eldar.

Dumb game design? How about rending assault cannons that got an extra shot on terminators that got cheaper???  I've heard rumour that the new death company is going to get rending....hope that's not true. When I do actually use harlies I only use a single 6 man unit...no more.

That and the fact that their players still have the audacity to complain about Marines or any other list for that matter.

It's a circular argument. It's funny that they *female dog* at us for what we have despite using the best of what they have.....lame.

Lazarus.

Posted by: hellfury

Just to aadd fuel to voodoo boys pperspective, eldar have the most broken combat patrol army ever. I have yet to lose with it, even against tau who can make some of the better combat patrol lists.

1 squad of 3 gaurdian jetbikes with a shuricannon
2 squads of 2 warwalkers with scasers
1 squad of 2 warwalkers with  shuricannons.

thats 47 str6 shots.  thats a crippling first turn for the opponent.

You show me another army that can pour out that much firepower in a 400 pt game. You just cant show me because it doesnt exist outside the ken of eldar.

Lots of fragile stuff. A Tau player can make a much nastier list using crisis suits / fire warriors and a dvil fish (smart missiles) - lots of shots coming at you that you can't see to shoot back.

If GW had made warwalkers a fast attack choice like they should have been we might seem them actually used.

 

Lazarus.

VooDoo for President!

(if he promises never to be sober)

Posted By Lazarus on 04/24/2007 11:31 AM

Lots of fragile stuff. A Tau player can make a much nastier list using crisis suits / fire warriors and a dvil fish (smart missiles) - lots of shots coming at you that you can't see to shoot back.

(lol) Sure dude (lol) the Eldar (lol) in combat patrol (lol) for the list (lol) I posted (lol) sti nks (lol)

I am glad I didnt write a longer post, or no one would have made it past the first page...

I didn't say that it stinks just that the Tau can do it better.....had we kept the CTM then it would be different. Besides, who the hell actually plays combat patrol anyways?

Lazarus.

Wow, coming back to read this after I wake up makes it that much better.

I appreciate the comments, I only wish I was this popular when I'm sober.

Back to the fun:



Ok when I'm talking about cheese from a normal 40k Codex and you use Forgeworld stuff as a counter example of more cheese, you lose. It's like the Godwins law of 40k online discussions.

Besides who cares if it's 75 shots, aren't they BS2? I think that somewhat invalidates the example. That's one thing that pisses me off when people online try to talk up the Orks as something that doesn't suck. "OMG you can get like 50 shots from ONE UNIT!" Yeah, at BS-Freakin-TWO. And for the points in any other army, that kind of damage output would be laughed at.



Well Eldar are cheesy enough that they should be complained about for fielding anything but an army of wraithguard, because a unit with a gun that can kill ANYTHING has a lot going for it. :p

Seriously, if people *female dog* at you for taking a balanced Eldar force, then screw em. They're being little *female dog*es and they should be told so.

Even when I play and lose to the nasty Eldar lists, I don't *female dog* about it or call my opponent cheesy or a power gamer. Why? Because if I'm playing against a cheesy list that means I probably have one too and thus have no right to *female dog*.

This thread though, it's not about complaining about some players army. It's about complaining about Eldar in general, because if people can do it about Marines (who don't have the cheese potential that Eldar do) then I can do it about Eldar. That and because Eldar players tend to be as pissy and moany about other armies when they've got the best stuff in the game.



Ok, so you understand what it's like when fighting against 3 Holofield Falcon Eldar with a normal army, or even a bunch of tournament armies.

Sure if there's not enough terrain in the back field then you can't hide your tanks and can die. Of course Escallation helps that a lot. But I've rarely seen tables that didn't have enough terrain to hide behind. But doing a kind of set terrain/mission setup for tournaments (where there WOULDN'T be enough terrain in a deployment zone to hide 3 or more Skimmers on Turn 1) is an idea I'm exploring to possibly use at local tournaments.



I think it'd be fun. If you're in the NJ/Philly area shoot me a PM or something.

As far as Orks, don't start them. Don't start an army that has no real options to take on all comers with the misguided idea that playing a crappy army is somehow "more fun" than using a normal balanced army.

One reason I don't play Orks anymore is because against Godzilla, Tau, Eldar, or Necrons, there's hardly any point in deploying anymore. And it's not fun for my opponent either, since they simply can't move a whole lot and are forced to sit back and roll dice to shoot me or they lose.

Orks have so many tactically limiting problems that it's not even funny. From Deployment problems due to army design, to lacking any reliable way to deal with tanks, they're just not a fun army to use right now.

If I didn't love the army so much, I'd have sold them already.



Oh they Eldar got nerfed. Just because they used to be even more ridiculous and are now only at the top of the heap by a small bit instead of a huge margin doesn't mean that I should feel sorry for the poor widdle space elves.

Starcannons were used because they were good at everything. Even my Orks hated them since they were 3 Shots and S6, the AP didn't even matter. They were good against everything, and every Eldar list lost nothing by taking them en masse with just enough Bright Lances to do anti-tank.

You went Mech because you had to, OK, so did most Tau players. It's what 4th ed did to your armies. Most marines went the opposite of Mech because of the new rules. It's what GW did with the rule set, people use what's good. I've got that. The problem is that no one likes units that they can do nothing about, let alone kill. And Eldar get that en masse.



Assault Cannons have nothing on the rules for Holofields and the rules for Harlequins as far as dumb game design goes.

And as far as complaining about Eldar while taking the best their list has to offer, I don't think that means very much because the Eldar are so far above most other lists in the game.

I mean, if I played Orks exclusively and took the best my list had to offer all the time, would I have the right to complain about Eldar?

I dunno, this is somewhat getting played out now after 6 pages. But I figure if people can complain about Marines being the worst thing EVAR for 40k, then I can complain about Eldar who I'm pretty sure are worse than Marines as far as in game rules go.

Posted by: Voodoo boyz

 

Ok when I'm talking about cheese from a normal 40k Codex and you use Forgeworld stuff as a counter example of more cheese, you lose. It's like the Godwins law of 40k online discussions.

I mentioned it as it really stood out in that tourney. I have had plenty of other opponents who used something that I certainly thought was over the top moan about the fact that I even played Eldar. Nothing like facing a Lysander terminator force with 13 assault cannons most of which are tank hunters....lol

Besides who cares if it's 75 shots, aren't they BS2? I think that somewhat invalidates the example. That's one thing that pisses me off when people online try to talk up the Orks as something that doesn't suck. "OMG you can get like 50 shots from ONE UNIT!" Yeah, at BS-Freakin-TWO. And for the points in any other army, that kind of damage output would be laughed at.

My opponent told me that the big shootas on the squiggots were BS3 and the rockets were only BS2 but of course twin linked....believe me, they hit a whole lot during that game.


Well Eldar are cheesy enough that they should be complained about for fielding anything but an army of wraithguard, because a unit with a gun that can kill ANYTHING has a lot going for it. :p

Yeah, wraithguard are soo good that everyone is stuffing them into their lists now....(sarcasm for those who didn't catch it) lol

Seriously, if people *female dog* at you for taking a balanced Eldar force, then screw em. They're being little *female dog*es and they should be told so.

Who determines what balance  is? Before my adepticon trip I posted my army on several different sites and was told by many that my list was not tough enough for the likes of this sort of tourney. At least one player at the tourney certanily had a different opinion when it was over.

Even when I play and lose to the nasty Eldar lists, I don't *female dog* about it or call my opponent cheesy or a power gamer. Why? Because if I'm playing against a cheesy list that means I probably have one too and thus have no right to *female dog*.

I think it's  perfectly fine to run strong lists in an environment where everyone is doing the same. For my Adepticon trip space was at a premium in my transport case. My gladiator list was litteraly my RT list with a unit of dire avengers thrown into it. You can still do well with a balnaced list if you know what you are doing. I could certainly make the list much tougher for next year.

This thread though, it's not about complaining about some players army. It's about complaining about Eldar in general, because if people can do it about Marines (who don't have the cheese potential that Eldar do) then I can do it about Eldar. That and because Eldar players tend to be as pissy and moany about other armies when they've got the best stuff in the game.

I suppose that's fair enough.

Ok, so you understand what it's like when fighting against 3 Holofield Falcon Eldar with a normal army, or even a bunch of tournament armies.

Yes, I do understand what it is like. I actually face that stuff now. (lol)

Sure if there's not enough terrain in the back field then you can't hide your tanks and can die. Of course Escallation helps that a lot. But I've rarely seen tables that didn't have enough terrain to hide behind. But doing a kind of set terrain/mission setup for tournaments (where there WOULDN'T be enough terrain in a deployment zone to hide 3 or more Skimmers on Turn 1) is an idea I'm exploring to possibly use at local tournaments.

I can't even begin to count how many tourneys I've attended over the years where there wasn't even 25% of the terrain there should have been on the table....if I lost initiative on one of those the game was over before it started.

I'd love to play a game against you....long as you only hate my Eldar and not me personally. [Smile]

I'm soon starting Orks....but mainly for the fun of it.

I think it'd be fun. If you're in the NJ/Philly area shoot me a PM or something.

Got realtives in PA and NY so might happen. 

As far as Orks, don't start them. Don't start an army that has no real options to take on all comers with the misguided idea that playing a crappy army is somehow "more fun" than using a normal balanced army.

I used to play them during 2nd edition. I'm not starting them for the tourney scene but rather just for fun....besides, they'll get a new dex and they migh just be really viable again. GW will want to actually sell the new models right?


Orks have so many tactically limiting problems that it's not even funny. From Deployment problems due to army design, to lacking any reliable way to deal with tanks, they're just not a fun army to use right now.

This may change. Also, they are a blast to play and the conversion possibilities are endless...

Oh they Eldar got nerfed. Just because they used to be even more ridiculous and are now only at the top of the heap by a small bit instead of a huge margin doesn't mean that I should feel sorry for the poor widdle space elves.

lol, I'm not asking for anyone to feel sorry for them.

Starcannons were used because they were good at everything. Even my Orks hated them since they were 3 Shots and S6, the AP didn't even matter. They were good against everything, and every Eldar list lost nothing by taking them en masse with just enough Bright Lances to do anti-tank.

If you ask any Eldar player he'd tell you that he'd prefer scatter laser & shuriken cannons vs. your orks. He can't take them however as he is 85% more likely to run into an MEQ type opponent (at least in all of my tourney experiences). Once again the root of the problem is that everything is MEQ!

And on brightlances - I'd trade them straight up for las cannons anyday of the week. The lascannon is better accross the board in every catagory except against AV14....and I don't see a whole lot of that in tourneys....

You went Mech because you had to, OK, so did most Tau players. It's what 4th ed did to your armies. Most marines went the opposite of Mech because of the new rules. It's what GW did with the rule set, people use what's good. I've got that. The problem is that no one likes units that they can do nothing about, let alone kill. And Eldar get that en masse.

Yes, we have a few tough units but we also have droves of weak ones. People use to really complain about wraithlords...not so much now with hidden powerfists / rending etc.

I dunno, this is somewhat getting played out now after 6 pages. But I figure if people can complain about Marines being the worst thing EVAR for 40k, then I can complain about Eldar who I'm pretty sure are worse than Marines as far as in game rules go.

I don't think marines are the worst ever for 40K. I do however hate how GW slams them down our throats above all other armies due to their sales numbers.

Lazarus.

Posts are getting ridiculously long here.  To me, excessive length strives to hide a lack of content.  Be succinct.

Posted By Iorek on 04/25/2007 5:39 AM
Posts are getting ridiculously long here.  To me, excessive length strives to hide a lack of content.  Be succinct.

I'll sum it up for you real easy:

Me: F*#& the Eldar
Lazarus: Meh, F*#& everyone

Posts are getting ridiculously long here.  To me, excessive length strives to hide a lack of content.  Be succinct.

Posts that add nothing at all to the discussion are called spam elsewhere.  

Lazarus.

I just wanted the Cliff's Notes versions; I'm WAY too lazy to read all of that.

Noted. 

Lazarus.

Hej guyz! Whuts going on her?e

Ok, I play eldar, and they NEED to be weakened down. not the guns, the skimmers,and all others. Male them more easy to omnomnom and MAYBE make weapons better. And increase points would make eldar what they're supposed to be, elite, killee, fraigle psykic elves.

3-year-old thread is 3 years old...