Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

That directed at me? All rumors have said that icons act "like teleport homers" in regards to demon summoning. I don't think it's foolhardy to expect the connection between homers and deep striking as we know it in the BBB may also apply to demon summoning now.

And yes, it is completely different. This is Nü Chaos, and this change to summoning would bring it in line with the general deep strike rules in the BBB, which seemed to be the thrust of 4th ed and the Universal Rules idea.

- Salvage

Not really adding anything, but how hard would it have been to give daemons buyable upgrades like the L&tD mutants? 5 points for rending, 10 points for wings, etc. Everyone would have been happy with that. Do the same thing for daemonic cavalry and you'd sell those old fiend & beast of nurgle figures. I don't like to rag on GW much but this seems pretty clearly boneheaded.

Posted By Boss_Salvage on 06/22/2007 8:47 AM
That directed at me? All rumors have said that icons act "like teleport homers" in regards to demon summoning. I don't think it's foolhardy to expect the connection between homers and deep striking as we know it in the BBB may also apply to demon summoning now.

And yes, it is completely different. This is Nü Chaos, and this change to summoning would bring it in line with the general deep strike rules in the BBB, which seemed to be the thrust of 4th ed and the Universal Rules idea.

- Salvage

And it says nothing about them deep striking in general.

Posted By jfrazell on 06/22/2007 9:16 AM
And it says nothing about them deep striking in general.

Yep.  All I can do is conjecture and build upon what has been rumored and reported.  Time (or Warseer) will tell how the coming generic demons will reach the battlefield.  Perhaps they will just plop down 6" from an icon and have that be that, or perhaps not.  Not that concerned myself.

- Salvage

Posted By skyth on 06/21/2007 5:47 PM
All the stuff you had now sucks...But the new stuff is cool...Buy new stuff!

All new plastics, Dreads moved to Elites, and Defilers get fleet -- this is exactly what I was thinking.

----------
There's nothing stopping gaming groups from using old rules for demons.  If GW is going to insist in publishing gakky rules there's nothing stopping us from having some fun with it.  Tournament play might be another story, but then it's tournament play anyway.

Posted By carmachu on 06/22/2007 5:32 AM

Lot of people have them....so they wont sell more if they make cool rules. But if they make'em mroe expensive and make Tzeentch cool....you get the idea.

Not that I blame them.  Nurgle has different, good-looking models.  And infiltrating T4(5) MEQs with 2 plasma guns doesn't hurt either.

That being said, I think the 1k sons models are pretty good looking too.

Speaking of which, has anyone heard anything about new models for the core marines (plauge/noise/blood/rubric?)

Noise Marines (under 24 Pts, the cheapest of all the cults)
Wargear:
- BP + CCW oder Bolter + CCW
- frag and krak grenades
Options:
- each Noise Marine can replace his BP or Bolter with a Sonicblaster
..........Sonicblaster: unchanged (probably about 5 pts)
- if the squad consists of 6 members, one single Noise Marine can replace his weapons with a Blastmaster (48", S8, AP3, Explosive (2,5" blast template))
- Champion
..........the champion may get a Doom Siren (S4, flammer, AP3)
- Chaos Rhino
Special Rules:
- fearless
- I5

So Noise Marines are going to be the main stay Chaos troop now it looks like.  you can make 6 man teams with a blastmaster ( ie a  rocket launcher) for, just a guess,  between 120 to 140 points, for more points you could upgrade them with sonic blasters.  You can make them assaulty with a champ with power weapon/siren, they already come with bp and ccw and with I5 they will strike first and you can put them in a rhino.

Now don;t get me wrong, I don;t find the idea bad but I play a slaneshi chaos army  but i just have a bad image of alot of iron warriors modeling little speakers to the end of their Las- cannons to get the count as thing going on . It does look like I will have 24 daemonettes sitting around for a bit though.  But I have a feeling I won;t be playing straight ( groans) slaneshi marines anymore anyway. so what do you guys think will make Havoks harder to kill T5 or a +5 invun save?.

The people I feel sorry for really are Alpha Legion players, either they have 40 or 50 marines equipped to get up close and friendly in the first  couple turns that now have to walk 10 miles up hill in the snow with no power boots, or they have 200 some cultists that are literally no longer a option, (well I guess you could use them as the new generic daemons but that just really blah). Im actually kinda glad i held off on the Alpha Legion army i was toying with, though i still have 80 or so ig jungle fighters ( left overs from my ig army) im not sure what to do with now along with about 20 chaos marines. I think wold Bearers also are in bad shape since they have alot of decent to good assault troop just turn into over priced kroot.

they might have a use again once the second chaos codex comes out.

honestly, people *female dog* about how broken they are, in my opinion they got a hell of alot stronger, look at the greater daemons, basic but no slot used, pending on what the codex says, you can have 4-5 of those bastards running around popping outa 5 man squads, Tzeench is slowed good better than before but not better than 3rd (all is dust) the ap3 is hot, does jack all against swarms, but gw pushes marines on everyone so its a good thing, their also gonna have sorcerors shooting 6 st 4 ap 3 shots out a turn thats nuts man. Oblits going heavy is fine and dandy, they lost heavy bolters but they got plasma cannons :| thats insane. Plague marines are disgusting T5 with feel no pain and blight grenades ouch, Khorne berzerkes now just go in a rhino with possession n smoke, ur gonna see a big rhino rush there, up 12" smoke, pop out move 8" charge 6" bam if all goes well. vindacators are a nice touch i do like them but i dont think they will be chosen much over defilers, who got even better. dont get me wrong, the daemons are a huge loss as i love absolutly killing marines with st 5 power weapons, but then you look at possessed, who are cheap and pending the icon you give them can be come an immense power house, ie. with the icon of khorne and getting either rending or power weapons its nuts. The daemon weapons for the most part make up for the old ones. mind you the berzerker glaive will be missed alot. Abaddon is the king of 40k again with all his power attacks. To be quite honest, this new codex is gonna make chaos worse then they were by far which is good cus chaos has always been the powerhouse of 40k

Posted By redshirt87 on 06/23/2007 2:32 AM
honestly, people *female dog* about how broken they are, in my opinion they got a hell of alot stronger, look at the greater daemons, basic but no slot used, pending on what the codex says, you can have 4-5 of those bastards running around popping outa 5 man squads, Tzeench is slowed good better than before but not better than 3rd (all is dust) the ap3 is hot, does jack all against swarms, but gw pushes marines on everyone so its a good thing, their also gonna have sorcerors shooting 6 st 4 ap 3 shots out a turn thats nuts man. Oblits going heavy is fine and dandy, they lost heavy bolters but they got plasma cannons :| thats insane. Plague marines are disgusting T5 with feel no pain and blight grenades ouch, Khorne berzerkes now just go in a rhino with possession n smoke, ur gonna see a big rhino rush there, up 12" smoke, pop out move 8" charge 6" bam if all goes well. vindacators are a nice touch i do like them but i dont think they will be chosen much over defilers, who got even better. dont get me wrong, the daemons are a huge loss as i love absolutly killing marines with st 5 power weapons, but then you look at possessed, who are cheap and pending the icon you give them can be come an immense power house, ie. with the icon of khorne and getting either rending or power weapons its nuts. The daemon weapons for the most part make up for the old ones. mind you the berzerker glaive will be missed alot. Abaddon is the king of 40k again with all his power attacks. To be quite honest, this new codex is gonna make chaos worse then they were by far which is good cus chaos has always been the powerhouse of 40k

If they are *female dog*ing it is because they have 500 dollars worth of miniatures x Y amount of hours converting and painting their army to be told sorry your Word Bearers/Alpha Legion/Iron Warriors are now Vanilla and your lesser deamons are worthless, you can't use your special rules either.  I can see the letter in the begining of the Codex

 

Dear Chaos Players,

We are exited to present you with this new codex which corrects the errors we made in provideing you with a fun flexible list.  We fully playtested this list with some special needs pre-schoolers who mostly put the miniatures in their mouths, beat them on the table,  and told us we were great when we gave them cookies.  You will be able to use your old army but you will need to invest in several hundred dollars worth of new miniatures to make it barely competative.  We do not care if  you do not like it as you are a stupid asshat that keeps  repurchaseing  the same list from us over and over.  Please buy all the new miniatures because some 12 year old on the internet says the list is great.  We hope you continue to be loyal customers in the future as we enjoy our one way exchanges with you our customers.

XXXXX's & OOOOOO's and no lube,

Games Workshop

Posted By redshirt87 on 06/23/2007 2:32 AM
Khorne berzerkes now just go in a rhino with possession n smoke, ur gonna see a big rhino rush there, up 12" smoke, pop out move 8" charge 6" bam if all goes well.

 

Yeah, I'm stoked about the new Zerks!  I just wish they would come out with new models for them...although there was a rumor on Warseer concerning Forgeworld models.  There were even sketches....I can hope.

Posted By Narlix on 06/22/2007 11:50 AM

The people I feel sorry for really are Alpha Legion players, either they have 40 or 50 marines equipped to get up close and friendly in the first  couple turns that now have to walk 10 miles up hill in the snow with no power boots, or they have 200 some cultists that are literally no longer a option, (well I guess you could use them as the new generic daemons but that just really blah). Im actually kinda glad i held off on the Alpha Legion army i was toying with, though i still have 80 or so ig jungle fighters ( left overs from my ig army) im not sure what to do with now along with about 20 chaos marines. I think wold Bearers also are in bad shape since they have alot of decent to good assault troop just turn into over priced kroot.

I hear that!

I guess I'll be shelving my Alpha Legion and my Emperor's Children in the hope that the 5th edition chaos restores the ability to play my two favorite Legions...

i agree but i was arguing new chaos codex vs old, i got a word bearers army , iron warriors army and an alpha legion army with 120 cultists, it sucks alot, but it could be worse, they could be like the new dark angels and blood angels thank christ almighty there are no combat squads!

Posted By redshirt87 on 06/23/2007 6:43 PM
i agree but i was arguing new chaos codex vs old, i got a word bearers army , iron warriors army and an alpha legion army with 120 cultists, it sucks alot, but it could be worse, they could be like the new dark angels and blood angels thank christ almighty there are no combat squads!

Actually, combat squads is better than the shaft CSM squads are getting.  In order to have a heavy, they have to have the same 10 man squad as loyalists.  The problem is loyalists can split the squad to have a mobile assultish element, and a  static shooty element for the same price Chaos pays for one unit.

Posted By Dice Monkey on 06/23/2007 10:08 AM

If they are *female dog*ing it is because they have 500 dollars worth of miniatures x Y amount of hours converting and painting their army to be told sorry your Word Bearers/Alpha Legion/Iron Warriors are now Vanilla and your lesser deamons are worthless, you can't use your special rules either.  I can see the letter in the begining of the Codex

 

Dear Chaos Players,

We are exited to present you with this new codex which corrects the errors we made in provideing you with a fun flexible list.  We fully playtested this list with some special needs pre-schoolers who mostly put the miniatures in their mouths, beat them on the table,  and told us we were great when we gave them cookies.  You will be able to use your old army but you will need to invest in several hundred dollars worth of new miniatures to make it barely competative.  We do not care if  you do not like it as you are a stupid asshat that keeps  repurchaseing  the same list from us over and over.  Please buy all the new miniatures because some 12 year old on the internet says the list is great.  We hope you continue to be loyal customers in the future as we enjoy our one way exchanges with you our customers.

XXXXX's & OOOOOO's and no lube,

Games Workshop

The funny thing is, because GW didnt make the basic rules for 40K different in 4th ed than they were in 4th (not enough to make previous codicies completly worthless) the newer rules are just a hopeful suggestion from GW to force you to buy more models to make the army you once played playable again.

I simply refuse to fall behind their hopeful suggestions and I will continue to use what we have now. Because really, Dice Monkey's fictional letter really isnt so fictional.

The fanboys who ape the "Finally! A balanced codex!" over at warseer are really blind to the fact that it isnt really balanced to anything except an imaginary dream world that Jervis lives in. If these rumours are true, then it is pretty obvious that everything isnt as useful as the next army choice.

Just dont buy the new codicies if you feel you dont like the rules. There is nothing stopping you from  using the older rules. Unless of course you play tournies...


Ofcourse no one will listen to me and buy the new rules anyway, because your good sheep. But thanks to the sheep who buy every little thing that GW releases mindlessly, the discerning players now have some cooler models to cling to.

Thanks, sheep.

who needs 10 man squads when you get obliterators

Posted By winterman on 06/21/2007 12:38 PM

ELITE:

- Possessed (cheaper than current base cost)
Wargear :
- claws (2 CCW)
- daem. strength (= S5)
- daem. Aura (5+ invulnerable)
Options:
- one chaos icon
- Champion
- Chaos Rhino
Special Rules:
- throw D6 for special abilities (after deployment):
1: Scouts
2: Furious Charge
3: Fleet of foot
4: rending
5: feel no pain
6: Power weapons

Why the hell is GW still insisting on making you roll a d6 for skills that should be piad for upgrades?!?

It has been a debacle in every codex they have done it in before. The complete unpredictability makes an otherwise great unit either totally useless for the role that you were hoping for them to perform, or so super fantastic they will do better than they are worth.

I really wanted to do a CSM army (my third in 4 editions) but these rules are pretty BLEGH!

I think it's strange how we went from random possessed that no one took, to possessed where you could choose the options (even if they were overpriced), back to this random nonsense again.

And, let's just say the rules presented above are 100% correct, why is it done after deployment? So I set them up to move with my Raptors and... whoops... I rolled Furious Charge. Looks like they won't be flying this game. Or, ok, I give them a transport... and they roll D-Flight? Can they use the transport? And if you can't buy them a Rhino... then why take them at all when there's only a 1 in 6 chance of them being able to move more than 6" a turn?

Reducing a unit's effectivness in a whole game down to a singel D6 roll is idiotic. It's also par for the course when it comes to GW rules writing.

I also think it's nice how Jervis is so quick to point out that he didn't write it. Alessio and Gav did. Gav? How is that supposed to make us feel better? I thought that maybe, mabye Alessio would be able to keep things working, but I guess he can't fight against Jervis' new vision for 40K.

Thank Christ for our Revisited Project. I can just buy the new Possessed Models, some more Marines, and a Terminator Lord or two and forget 4th Ed exists...

BYE

Posted By Waaagh_Gonads on 06/24/2007 4:09 AM
Why the hell is GW still insisting on making you roll a d6 for skills that should be piad for upgrades?!?

Because random = more chaotic = Chaos = FUN!!!!  Also it's Jervis' revenge against Pete Haines for overriding his Chaos rules back in 3rd.

What about theses really cool wings that I get in my possessed sprues? According to the spoiler, there is no use for them, unless the wings make them fleet. Something tells me that the spoiler is not spot-on.

Darrian

I might be alone in this sentiment but I actually like the idea of the focus of the army being on renegades and a motley assortment of Chaos Marines.

I've got an Iron Warriors army but I am looking forward to adding some new Red Corsair Marines to the force and perhaps using it as an excuse to paint up some units of other Legions as well to give the force a truly ramshackle appearance.

ive always personally felt that lost and the damned should be integrated into the normal chaos codex its gonna be wierd with lost and the damned , codex chaos, and codex daemons, its gonna be like fantasy

Posted By Narlix on 06/22/2007 11:50 AM

The people I feel sorry for really are Alpha Legion players, either they have 40 or 50 marines equipped to get up close and friendly in the first  couple turns that now have to walk 10 miles up hill in the snow with no power boots, or they have 200 some cultists that are literally no longer a option, (well I guess you could use them as the new generic daemons but that just really blah). Im actually kinda glad i held off on the Alpha Legion army i was toying with, though i still have 80 or so ig jungle fighters ( left overs from my ig army) im not sure what to do with now along with about 20 chaos marines. I think wold Bearers also are in bad shape since they have alot of decent to good assault troop just turn into over priced kroot.

AL players such as myself arguably get hit hardest. I hard to convert every single one of my cultists from various other models, to get them how I want them. Now I can't use them. And the rest of my army can't infiltrate. Three cheers for "progress".

Thank the heavens they finally put down the demon bomb. Everyone complained about the rhino rush, and not this been nixed too. Good!

I guess in the mean time you can't build Word Bearer armies or the like? Didn't see any rules about these chapters.

Yeah, it looks like AL and word bearers are hit the hardest, as well as anybody with a large and diverse collection of daemons.

As for the Daemonbomb, was that actually ever a problem army? I'd never seen one, personally, at any tournament. Ironically, it's biggest probelm was being too random: some games the bomber would simply lose because of bad reserve rolls and/or scatters, and some times everything would scatter 10" toward the enemy on turn 2.

I'm sure the codex will be fun, for new players, but many old players will have to do some reworking. The problem is, this codex did what GW always does: cut way too deep when all that was needed was a trim. Switch oblits to elite, up the cost of defilers, tinker with summoning, recost some daemon prince stuff, and maybe adjust a few other things here and there (fix 1k Sons, maybe). There had to be a way to 1) balance the codex internally and with other books, 2) make it easier for new players, 3) elmininate some of the more useless or underused options, while 4) keeping most units, upgrades, tactics, and builds possible, if not all as viable as before.

I think the average gamer, picking up a chaos codex for the first time, might find the new one better. I think that as we explore the new possibilities, some neat stuff might appear. I'm just not sure it was necessary to invalidate a lot of gamers hard work. And yes, I know that all the models will still be playable, and you can count as. I'm not saying the models are valueless, but that a lot of the effort that went into converting is now less valuable.

Posted By pixelgeek on 06/24/2007 11:06 AM
I might be alone in this sentiment but I actually like the idea of the focus of the army being on renegades and a motley assortment of Chaos Marines.

Yup, so far you're alone!

They really should have called it CODEX: Chaos Renegades then.

Since you'll have a hard time playing your current First Founding Traitor Legion force now...

For a shooty army the Demons might not be an issue. However for those that like to get into HTH demon bomb was a killer. Demonettes and Bloodletters just pop in and rended/power weapon everyone to pieces.

Yes, that army was nails. Being able to deliver amazingly good assault units unscathed with no chance to stop them turn two is pretty damn powerful. A Deamon bomb list is one of the most powerful in the game, no doubt. Well, i should say is for the next two months. From the sounds of it the new daemons will just suck so badly. Why would you ever use them? Chaos is losing a ton of flavor with all generic daemons. The greater deamon sounds good, really good actually. But I still miss the idea of having different greater deamons.

Hopefully when the new codex comes out they will bring back all of our old favorites and make them accesable for chaos marines.

As a DeathGuard player, I can't say I'm disappointed about the rumours of the new stuff in the codex. 

FNP?  Wooo, my marines just turned into T5 Necrons!  Lost True Grit - who cares, they get 2 attacks with the Bolter/BP/CCW anyways.  So I not only get the 2 attacks at all times, I can shoot the pistols and charge in for 3 attacks (with non-plasma units).   And now I can field Oblits for lascannons.

Cheaper Rhinos (with repair), cheaper Landraider; the 'raider can get DP now and still carry troops!

Ok, so I can't have double-reaper tank-hunting termies, true.  But termies are getting cheaper.  And no more mutated hull for AV13 dreads and AV14 preds.  Oh well.  Considering that the basic plaguemarines are now twice as difficult to kill with all weapons, and I can field Oblits, the tanks should be receiving somewhat less fire.

The generic demons are not much worse than plaguebearers were already, and they're cheaper.  My PBs rarely engaged wraithlords, wraithguard, carnifexes and demon princes (where the venom might be useful) anyways.  The GD going down to 4 wounds from 6 is made up for by the possibility of using any champ to bring him out, and the fact that he doesn't take up a force org selection.

All in all, my deathguard will be strengthened by this.  If all-infiltrating Alpha Legion and 4-ordnance Iron Warriors get boned, I'm not crying.

I realize that it sucks to have your army retconned out of existence, but there is a bright side to this codex in that it is bringing the Nurgle and Tzeentch factions up a bit.  Also, with everything as options in a single list, there should be much more opportunity to design *different* lists that are effective.  ie something more interesting than a bunch of 6-man las/plas squads and 4 indirect defilers with a Demon Prince.

Anyways, I'm looking forward to September, and I'm assembling my 3 Oblits tonight!

Posted By pixelgeek on 06/24/2007 11:06 AM
I might be alone in this sentiment but I actually like the idea of the focus of the army being on renegades and a motley assortment of Chaos Marines.

Not much love for legions from here. I always assumed they'd fragmented anyway, what with primarch's being insane souless demons and all that. Chaos should fight in warbands bound by the will of a chaos lord in my book.