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Posted By Strangelooper on 06/25/2007 2:37 PM

FNP?  Wooo, my marines just turned into T5 Necrons! 

I'm under the impression that they're still T4(5), which, for the purposes of WBB, makes them T4 Necrons.

That being said, the FnP against Plasma and AssCans is certainly an upgrade.  But at what cost?  5 pts per model?

Posted By pixelgeek on 06/24/2007 11:06 AM
I might be alone in this sentiment but I actually like the idea of the focus of the army being on renegades and a motley assortment of Chaos Marines.

Aside from the fact that with one codex they've contradicted the past 15+ years of fluff, the simple fact is that renegade marines are not the same as chaos marines. Chaos marines worship, y'know, the chaos gods. Are we to believe that whole legion-sized amounts of marines are turning away from the Imperium to worship chaos now? Sure, the corsairs and others have, but they were chapters, not legions. They'd have to be legion sized desertions for this to work, given that now CSM aren't any more long-lived than regular marines.

Is it just me or did the World Eaters get the shaft on this?

On a gut level I like the 5 Weapon skill but even with it and Furious Charge they are only slightly more effective on the charge than they were with choppas. They are no longer as good in a sustained assault and they are no longer a credible threat to other dedicated assault units and monsters.

It sounds like they will now cost more points as well.

I am still on the fence about the lack of extra movement. On the upside they no longer act slowed and chase things around the board or attack things they can?t hurt. On the other side they have no special movement and so have to jump into transports that are frequently deathtraps or, at best, unreliable.

What nitch are they suppose to fill in the new Chaos Army, a bland mediocre countercharge unit?

I can't see fielding them as a solid basis for an army at this point.

Posted By fourganger88 on 06/25/2007 3:45 PM

Posted By pixelgeek on 06/24/2007 11:06 AM
I might be alone in this sentiment but I actually like the idea of the focus of the army being on renegades and a motley assortment of Chaos Marines.

Aside from the fact that with one codex they've contradicted the past 15+ years of fluff, the simple fact is that renegade marines are not the same as chaos marines. Chaos marines worship, y'know, the chaos gods. Are we to believe that whole legion-sized amounts of marines are turning away from the Imperium to worship chaos now? Sure, the corsairs and others have, but they were chapters, not legions. They'd have to be legion sized desertions for this to work, given that now CSM aren't any more long-lived than regular marines.

It is pretty odd to, the most fluff I have read about renegades was the Soul Drinkers novels.

You would be able to approximate them under the old dex but due to their mutations you cannot represent them with the new one.

Posted By Strangelooper on 06/25/2007 2:37 PM
And now I can field Oblits for lascannons.

You do realize that you could do that previously don't you?  Sure, you would lose the free asp champs and the +1 to summoning, but you don't get them in the new codex either.  And as for those Oblits?  In the old codex not only would your Oblits have T4(5), S10 power fists, heavy bolters, and twin-linked plasma guns, they would also take Elite slots rather than Heavy Support.  The new Oblits have none of these advantages but they cost the same as the old.

Posted By fourganger88 on 06/25/2007 3:45 PM
Aside from the fact that with one codex they've contradicted the past 15+ years of fluff, the simple fact is that renegade marines are not the same as chaos marines.

QFT.  If they are renegade marines where are their landspeeders?  What happened to their Razorbacks?  Does every chapter that turns to Chaos immediately sacrifice all their assault cannons to the Dark Gods?  And where do they get all the reaper autocannons?  It just doesn't make sense.

Posted By bigchris1313 on 06/25/2007 3:42 PM

Posted By Strangelooper on 06/25/2007 2:37 PM

FNP?  Wooo, my marines just turned into T5 Necrons! 

I'm under the impression that they're still T4(5), which, for the purposes of WBB, makes them T4 Necrons.

That being said, the FnP against Plasma and AssCans is certainly an upgrade.  But at what cost?  5 pts per model?

Yeah ok, what I meant was:  T5 to wound, Sv3+ and an extra 4+ save.  Sure, T4 vs instant death.  If someone is shooting a lascannon/missile launcher/railgun at my FNP marine I won't complain.

True, a 5 point cost increase is pretty significant, but if it's less than 50% of the cost of the marine then it's worth it for a 50% *extra* save.

Abadadabbon:  Good point about the no free champs any more     As for +1 to summoning I won't miss it.  Without bikers or flying icons, I'd rather have my daemons arrive later than sooner.

As for the ability to take Oblits now:  yeah but all you fluffmonkeys would b#tch "That's not TRUE deathguard and if you're going to go Black Legion you shouldn't take PMs just take  all tri-las MH DP preds and berserkers and a glaive prince and a 'thirster and 'letters or you'll get pwned by mech eldar and zillanids anyways.  NOOB."

Or something.

That's what I mean by the flexible list being good - hopefully we won't see Chaos being reduced to a single optimal build like I listed above.

Posted By Strangelooper on 06/25/2007 10:22 PM
As for the ability to take Oblits now:  yeah but all you fluffmonkeys would b#tch "That's not TRUE deathguard and if you're going to go Black Legion you shouldn't take PMs just take  all tri-las MH DP preds and berserkers and a glaive prince and a 'thirster and 'letters or you'll get pwned by mech eldar and zillanids anyways.  NOOB."

Well, in the new codex you can't play "true" Death Guard because the Death Guard list no longer exists.  Of course that won't stop those same fluffmonkeys from *female dog*ing if you take Oblits in your Death Guard army.  They'll still expect you to abide by the old Death Guard restrictions in order to be "fluffy".  Some may even insist that you not take terminators since they can't get Feel No Pain like proper plague marines.

Posted By Strangelooper on 06/25/2007 10:22 PM
...hopefully we won't see Chaos being reduced to a single optimal build like I listed above.

Don't worry - we will.

I don't understand the renegade marine focus.  I'd rather use the vanilla codex for that. It seems more important as they would have more imperialdudelike (TM) tech, including A cannons and skimmers.

Plus it has traits and vet skills.  Our chaotic cousins won't .

 

Posted By jfrazell on 06/26/2007 5:58 AM

I don't understand the renegade marine focus.  I'd rather use the vanilla codex for that. It seems more important as they would have more imperialdudelike (TM) tech, including A cannons and skimmers.

I think the "focus" is just positive spin.  They wanted to do away with Legion rules, but they don't want to sound negative and antagonize the customers.  So the spin will be "we really wanted this one to be about renegades." 

Yeah, that's the ticket. *shrug*

It does leave the door open for Legion-specific codicies...in what, 2018?  Hey, maybe I won't be dead yet. 

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 06/25/2007 9:01 PM

Posted By fourganger88 on 06/25/2007 3:45 PM
Aside from the fact that with one codex they've contradicted the past 15+ years of fluff, the simple fact is that renegade marines are not the same as chaos marines.

QFT.  If they are renegade marines where are their landspeeders?  What happened to their Razorbacks?  Does every chapter that turns to Chaos immediately sacrifice all their assault cannons to the Dark Gods?  And where do they get all the reaper autocannons?  It just doesn't make sense.

QF correction:  Renegades has historically been used by GW to refer to any marines who abandoned their allegiance to the Imperium, but primarily those who went to Chaos.  IIRC the original renegades were all "Chaos Renegades."

http://solegends.com/citcat911/c2107chaosrenegades.htm

http://solegends.com/citcat911/c2106chaosrenegades.htm

http://solegends.com/citcat911/c2109chaosrenegadeheavie.htm

http://solegends.com/citcat89/c890230chaosrenegades.htm

Posted By jfrazell on 06/26/2007 5:58 AM

Plus it has traits and vet skills.  Our chaotic cousins won't .

Yeah.  Real interesting how that worked.  They told us they gave the CSM skills because they were nigh-immortal worshippers of Chaos with centuries of battlefield experience surpassing that of a normal marine.

Then they give it to veteran space marines (for C:SM anyway) who also have, allegedly, similar amounts of experience. 

The new Chaos codex is here, complete with the same guys, and all of the sudden they've forgotten all their vet skills.  Amazing.  Kinda' like how the DE forgot how to fight in 3 ranks after they seceded from Ulthuan.  The DA don't have any vet skills either.  So, basically, the supposed super-vets forgot how to assimilate cool tactics and the semi-vets remember.

Fascinating.

Well, I'm sure Space Marines will be losing their Vet Skills when Redux comes out. (Does that make the whole USR section of the rulebook a lot less useful than it was first intended? Yes.)

What's really amusing is the new marine dex with it's trait system was a blatant copy of the Chaos codex D. skills ect. Now chaos may lose thier abilities while marines steal them and get to keep them. Way to go GW. As for previous posts of fluff this and fluff that you can throw that out the window as GW blatantly ingores some fluff everytime they re-write a dex. Oblits will probably originate from plague marines and who knew.

The current trend of 40k is to remove as many special rules as possible. I imagine 5th edition will be two pages long.

And require 200 pages of YakFaq to be playable. *cry*

Posted By Mannahnin on 06/26/2007 9:53 AM

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 06/25/2007 9:01 PM

Posted By fourganger88 on 06/25/2007 3:45 PM
Aside from the fact that with one codex they've contradicted the past 15+ years of fluff, the simple fact is that renegade marines are not the same as chaos marines.

QFT.  If they are renegade marines where are their landspeeders?  What happened to their Razorbacks?  Does every chapter that turns to Chaos immediately sacrifice all their assault cannons to the Dark Gods?  And where do they get all the reaper autocannons?  It just doesn't make sense. 

QF correction:  Renegades has historically been used by GW to refer to any marines who abandoned their allegiance to the Imperium, but primarily those who went to Chaos.  IIRC the original renegades were all "Chaos Renegades."

I realize that.  But in this context "renegades" is being used to refer to relatively recent post-Heresy converts.  GW is saying that this codex focuses on "renegades" as opposed to "legions".  This of course begs the question: if these guys aren't from the original traitor legions, why do they only have pre-Heresy tech?  Do all your Razorbacks suddenly stop working the moment you turn to Chaos?

Previously if you wanted to represent a "renegade" SM force you'd choose between the SM codex and the CSM codex.  The SM codex was better at representing their post-Heresy equipment while the CSM codex was better at representing their gifts, mutations, and daemons (if any).  But now the gifts and mutations are gone and the daemons apparently suck.  So why use this new CSM codex over the SM one?

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 06/26/2007 6:03 PM

So why use this new CSM codex over the SM one?

Going with what you said, wouldn't Renegades be just like Space Marines? If so, why not use the SM Codex, and take some allies in order to get some daemons or marked Marines.

The Relictors would use the Space Marine 'dex, and they're renegades too.

(speculation) then this would mean that this codex represents big unaligned forces with some support from marked units, thus representing the majority of the legions instead of focusing on the "main" four. I'll rate it when I see it, though, but what I've heard so far doesn't boil my blood. I might even be tempted to collect a proper Night Lords army, complete with heavy support units and a Lord instead of a Daemon Prince.

Posted By Destrado on 06/26/2007 7:16 PM

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 06/26/2007 6:03 PM

So why use this new CSM codex over the SM one?

Going with what you said, wouldn't Renegades be just like Space Marines?

Yes.  They would be like SM except with maybe some daemons and/or daemonic gifts/mutations.  But they certainly wouldn't have things like reaper autocannons on their terminators or havoc launchers on their vehicles.  When they turn to Chaos do all their storm bolters magically transsubstantiate into combi-bolters?

Regardless of how they try to spin it, this codex ultimately represents the same forces as the last one, namely the traitor legions, albeit in dumbed-down form.  On the other hand the new rules seem to be better at representing god-aligned vanilla forces.  Basically Codex: Chaos Space Marines has become Codex: Black Legion.  Non-Ultramarine SM players take note.

So have fun while it lasts, all you Black Legion players.  'Cause if you think you'll still be using your T4(6) Nurgle bikers when the 5th ed Chaos codex rolls around then I've got some T5 Obliterators to sell you.

wow, i can already see the new big chaos list, 2 daemon princes and a greater daemon, 3 dreadnoughts, 3 kitted out defilers and a bunch of spawns wow lol maybe some nurgle bikers and plague marines for stability

If the stats are near where they are now, three defilers running at me equals three three smoking ruins. There's a reason everyone played them with indirect fire.

Posted By jfrazell on 06/27/2007 4:26 AM
If the stats are near where they are now, three defilers running at me equals three three smoking ruins. There's a reason everyone played them with indirect fire.

But WS 2 move or fire weapons with a low armor value have a lot going for them.

Charging Defiler gets dropped by 3 bike squad with a shuricannon. Not to be out done Far Out Old Dude (TM) known as farseer drops the remaining two with his spear. Falcons, being the fragile things they are, bide their time until the chaos dreads slog forward...

Charging Defiler gets dropped by guardsman with a plasma gun. Entire IG army, stunned that the guardsman didn't fry himself and now filled with the spirit of Ollanius Pious, then charge, wiping out entire chaos force to a man (or tentacle).

Charging defilers meet genestealers. In order to compensate for their poor abilities the genestealers fight with two arms tied behind their backs, but still get 41 rending attacks as they go first.

Necron phalanx sees charging defilers. 1000101010111001100101010101, resulting in 42 glancing hits which leave only the right foot unharmed...

Posted By Wayfarer on 06/26/2007 3:27 PM
The current trend of 40k is to remove as many special rules as possible. I imagine 5th edition will be two pages long.

Yep. This new Third Edition ruleset will be the death of the game. Removing Vortex Grenades and Virus Bombs was so unnecessary. And the fact that I can't kill the entire Ultramarines 2nd Company with a single Genestealer? That blows.