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BeefyG wrote:What was the 168th model? I only count 167...sorry to be pedantic :S

Does Snikrot mean that you can boost the numbers in the squad to above 15?

Can you take snikrot to lead the unit without having to buy that 15th kommando first?

Yes, Snikrot takes you to 16. He's not an upgrade for a nob.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Weedy git! You stole my Snikrot mob idea!

I still think Mobz of 30 are too big, and as I've found out moving the whole horde towards a gunline blows.

With ork leadership being what it is, I think the larger units might be clunky, but they are definatly more resiliant.

Mauleed is obviously not wanting his boys running off of the field, its much easier to take out enough boys in a unit of 20 to start forcing leadership checks. At half strength with a unit of 20 you could botch a tank shock check and wind up escorted off of the feild by the same tank. If you want to break a unit of 30 you have to kill off 18 orks before they even have to start making a check (-1 for half str, or are they still fearless at 12?), at that point the unit is pretty well decimated and probably required some serious attention to accomplish that. Not so much with the unit of 20, easier to get them to the point where their leadership weakness hampers their reliability.

Bigger units might be unwieldy, but they will be unweildy AND reliable for longer than the 20 man units are. Also, a 20 man unit isnt exactly a trim maneuverable unit anyway.

mauleed wrote:

BeefyG wrote:What was the 168th model? I only count 167...sorry to be pedantic :S

Does Snikrot mean that you can boost the numbers in the squad to above 15?

Can you take snikrot to lead the unit without having to buy that 15th kommando first?

Yes, Snikrot takes you to 16. He's not an upgrade for a nob.

Ehhh, I'm reading it and it says "instead of a Nob" which sort of implies that a Boy is upgraded to him, but you're right in that it's not clear.

I keep trying to adapt my 1750 horde list to include Snikrot, but it just doesn't fit.

mauleed wrote:That's 168 models I'd have to paint, but I think it would be pretty effective.

Dont you mean DIP?

Voodoo Boyz wrote:I keep trying to adapt my 1750 horde list to include Snikrot, but it just doesn't fit.

He needs to. Back when I was playing Space Wolves I can remember how much I wished that my unit of scouts could be more substantial. These sort of chargers are game breakers.

Well damn, took me long enough to realize that this is an 1850 list and not 1750.

At 1850 drop the Boyz down to 20 each and add a 20 Boy Storm Boyz unit. Your model count goes down, but I can't express how good those Storm Boyz are. Convert them from Assault Marine jump packs if you have to. They're seriously worth every point and every lost model you end up with in the army. In terms of putting pressure on lists and setting up traps (especially for Nidzilla) you want them. The Kommando's aren't enough CC.

Also consider this when it comes to 30 Boy Mobz.

It's easy to engage the mob where the Nob will struggle to get into striking distance in such a large mob. Additionally you gain another incredibly fast moving scoring unit.

I just can't express how good the Storm Boyz have been in terms of winning me games with the new Orks, provided you don't make stupid mistakes with them (like misjudging LOS when hiding).

Mark my words, when 5th edition comes out you'll be glad you got those 30 boy units, they wont be that unwieldy anymore.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Ehhh, I'm reading it and it says "instead of a Nob" which sort of implies that a Boy is upgraded to him, but you're right in that it's not clear.

Nah, it's perfectly clear. Instead of taking a nob, you may take the special character. So if you have a nob, you can't have the special character.

The fact that the nob is an upgrade to an existing model is irrelevant, since you aren't taking the nob.

Voodoo: I can lose Snikrot and a unit of 30 boyz (still leaving me with 90) and fit in 40 stormboyz. That's probably a rock hard list as well.

One problem I have with stormboyz is they are target #1, and make guess weapons oh so effective. One whirlwind just wrecks their day.

How's this for a rewrite:

1850 points:

Boss on bike, klaw, squig, 5+ inv

big mek, kff

2X14 lootas

3X30 shootas, klaw nob, 3 rokkits each

18 stormboyz, klaw nob

kopta, TL rokkits.

5 koptas, 3 bombs, and a buzzsaw, all with TL rokkits.

I realize more stormboyz may be better than the 5 koptas, but I really like koptas and I can always pull them out for more stormboyz if I need to.

The list I'm working on right now for 1750 to try and get everything to fit is:

Boss on Bike
KFF Mek

2x Lootas (hoping for 12)

Snikrot's Kommando's

80 or so Shoota Boyz

1 unit of Storm Boyz


Seriously, the Koptas may be cool looking but a unit of 5 is a bit much I think. In terms of objective grabbers they're OK, but I'd rather have other stuff in the list than to worry about having an objective grabber.

They're also good for a turn 1 charge, a-la scout biker...thats what the buzzsaw is for. The big unit, im pretty sure is meant for the turn 1 assault...the single probably for the grabbing.

I just want to fly over stuff and say 'boom, boom, boom' as I turbo and drop bombs.

Plus I want to do 'ork on eldar jetbike' conversions.

mauleed wrote:I just want to fly over stuff and say 'boom, boom, boom' as I turbo and drop bombs.

Plus I want to do 'ork on eldar jetbike' conversions.

Get some ork fighta bommas and play apocolypse games..... not only do you get to fly over stuff going "boom, boom, boom", but they're also by far the best thing in the book, point for point

The Koptas seem awfully flexible. They can scout 24", can't they?

Just wondering about the Ork trukks charging range. Isn't with Red Paint Job: 13 move, 2 deploy, 6 move, 6 waagh! and 6 charge = 33"? Or can't the boyz walk after when moved with the trukk?

The Koptas can scout 12" like any other bike with scout, you can't turbo with a scout move.

As far as the Koptas go, they can get a turn 1 charge off if you wanted, but the problem is that they're somewhat expensive in that squad and I can see you not getting first turn, getting shot with a Tornado and then running off the board.

Also the Trukk charging range is 21" Normally (13" Move, 2" Disembark, 6" Charge) and can be as high as 22"-27" with a Waaagh called.

The trukks charge range is even longer than that.

13" of movement
~1" from a pivot, maybe more depending on model
~3" from disembark, more if you include a single model on a larger base
d6" for the waaagh
6" for the charge

So a grand total of ~23" without the waaagh and ~24"-30" with it.

But I still don't think 12 boyz are going to do much.

mauleed wrote:The trukks charge range is even longer than that.

13" of movement
~1" from a pivot, maybe more depending on model
~3" from disembark, more if you include a single model on a larger base
d6" for the waaagh
6" for the charge

So a grand total of ~23" without the waaagh and ~24"-30" with it.

But I still don't think 12 boyz are going to do much.

Yes, but that's cheating.... pivoting isn't supposed to get you closer, and every model has to be within two inches of the vehichle, (so I guess you could say you could add 2.99 inches to getting out), but around here we say the entire model has to be within two inches.

The Koptas can scout 12" like any other bike with scout, you can't turbo with a scout move.

Why is that?

~1" from a pivot, maybe more depending on model

Err..what? The movement of the model is 13" meaning any point of the model won't end up more than 13" away from where it started. Models can pivot on the spot sure, but that's basically only if they don't move. Otherwise it's called movement, not pivoting. All in all that's really something coming from you.

mauleed wrote:
But I still don't think 12 boyz are going to do much.

They'll do damage, problem is that it won't be as devastating vs. every kind of target like they were before. Also while you'll probably kill whatever you hit, it's likely that the squad will get gimped in the process. They'll live, but there won't be much left. That's the gist of what I found in my tests with a KoS army.

Therion wrote:
Why is that?

Well damn, I thought the no-turbo during scout was in the USR, but it's merely specified every time a bike unit gets the USR. The entry has no restriction, so according to the USR for Scouts "all normal movement rules apply" so by RAW the Koptas can Turbo Boost in their scout move. So either it's a Phil Kelly oversight, or he left us another nugget.

Therion wrote:

~1" from a pivot, maybe more depending on model

Err..what? The movement of the model is 13" meaning any point of the model won't end up more than 13" away from where it started. Models can pivot on the spot sure, but that's basically only if they don't move. Otherwise it's called movement, not pivoting. All in all that's really something coming from you.

A model may make any number of turns during it's movement. By starting the trukk on the deployment line sideways you can turn it to gain the length of the model from the center point to the front in terms of distance "for free" since you can pivot and then move. And since they can disembark from any point on the trukk model it works just fine for any way you want to end your move in terms of a pivot.

mauleed wrote:If I build this, I'll make movement trays so I can just set down 30 orks. I'll make one for if the enemy doesn't have blast weapons/templares, and another for if they do. So I'll only be moving 7 or 8 'things' a turn. I'll make it out of clear lexan so I can see the terrain under it.

Ed, I did this for my Tyranids at a past GT. I found the trays are so-so for movement purposes (there'll still be times you'll want to adjust formation), but a godsend in deployment. So they'll still be worth it.

Angron wrote:Yes, but that's cheating.... pivoting isn't supposed to get you closer, and every model has to be within two inches of the vehichle, (so I guess you could say you could add 2.99 inches to getting out), but around here we say the entire model has to be within two inches.

I must have missed the page where it says pivoting isn't supposed to get you closer. All I can see is this page that shows you have to pivot around your center, which any kid in 9th grade geometry will yell you will get you closer.

And you can say the entire model has to be within 2", but I seriously doubt you guys actually play that way (or manybe no one uses chimeras or wave serpents). And even if you do, it's still just your house rule and irrelevant in the rest of the world.

Therion wrote:
Err..what? The movement of the model is 13" meaning any point of the model won't end up more than 13" away from where it started. Models can pivot on the spot sure, but that's basically only if they don't move. Otherwise it's called movement, not pivoting. All in all that's really something coming from you.

I think perhaps you need to take a look at the movement rules again.

Angron wrote:
Yes, but that's cheating.... pivoting isn't supposed to get you closer, and every model has to be within two inches of the vehichle, (so I guess you could say you could add 2.99 inches to getting out), but around here we say the entire model has to be within two inches.

You should look at the diagram on Page 62 for an example of how only the edge of the base needs be within 2" of the access point. I can see people getting testy about it, but it's literally in the rule book in black and white.

A similar "tactic" was used under the old demon summoning rules, where the very tip of the demons base would go under the template.

I think perhaps you need to take a look at the movement rules again.

I'm fairly well versed with the rules. My point was that if 'playing to win' in your world means rewarding the maneouvre you suggested I guess I'm not such a tough competitor afterall. Pivoting and then max moving to gain more movement, or max moving and then pivoting and disembarking from a corner, whatever, is yet another glaring hole in the system. You of all people encouraging others to play this way or even more so to convert their models so that they can better abuse the rule is nothing short of sad.

interesting...I always thought that the whole purpose of the vehicle movement/pivoting rules was so that the vehicles were always technically moving forwards when moving around things, for realism. So, say, you measure movement from the center of the vehicle, move it forward two inches, pivot, move, pivot, move, etc to get around an obstacle, adding up the movement distances as you go, so that you never pass 12". It's not like you get another free pivot after the movement phase, you can only do that if you didn't move.

I don't see how this is really an advantage though anyway...if your trukk is facing where you want to be, and you move 13" directly at them, how is pivoting going to help you? And if you started sideways for some reason, then moved sideways 13, and then pivoted at the end, all you've done is make up for the fact that you should have been straight from the beginning and cost yourself movement.

But yes, the way that GW does measuring for things like shooting and disembarking from vehicles leaves a lot of room for abuse...which is why they have sportsmanship scores. Otherwise everyone's trukks would be custom modeled to be three feet long

er, my mistake, I understand now how it would work. But I don't think you really need to pivot at the end. You place your trukk right up against the edge of the deployment zone sideways to start, then pivot it and move it straight, measuring from the front end. You've gained whatever the difference is between the length and the width, and you move your vehicle straight the whole time so you don't have some kind of weird hovertrukk that drives sideways. Seems fine to me.

Having played against an Ork Kult of speed player who will use every movement trick in the book...you'd think I'd understand this better.

Dark eldar can charge more than 18" a game.

- G

Therion wrote:I'm fairly well versed with the rules. My point was that if 'playing to win' in your world means rewarding the maneouvre you suggested I guess I'm not such a tough competitor afterall. Pivoting and then max moving to gain more movement, or max moving and then pivoting and disembarking from a corner, whatever, is yet another glaring hole in the system. You of all people encouraging others to play this way or even more so to convert their models so that they can better abuse the rule is nothing short of sad.

What's sad is that you've become just another joker whining that the rules should be ignored and that anyone that doesn't agree with you is somehow of questionable character. Following the rules is not 'playing to win', it's simply playing. If you're brand of 'playing' doesn't include following clear, unambiguous rules, hats off to you sir, but you aren't playing 40k.

I don't even own a trukk, nor do I plan on buying one. But if someone pulls this clearly legal move on me, I'm not going to have a single problem with it. And anyone that does is at best of questionable character themselves, or at worst a filthy cheater.