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Turtle wrote:Wait, did I almost miss a potential Dakka meta-argument?

*new GW rumours*

*gripe*

*implication for previous poster to stop playing the game if he doesn't like it*

*implication of below-average mental capacity, poor breeding*

*MODERATOR WARNING*

*hopeful counter argument*

*scorn and derision at previous poster's naivete*

*mention of squats*

*nobody plays squats LOL*


I must say though, if plastic Kasrkin come out and they look anything approaching decent then I will build a new army that will never see a playing table.

Yeah? Well, you're a 12 year old!

I can't really say I'm interested, but a plastic Valk would be real nice. If it's lootable, of course.

New plastic Valks and Thunderhawks are super sexy, but we'll see if all that pans out. Hopefully the rumor of plastic Valhallans is true as well. Terrain is always good. Now if they'd just make a battlewagon...

If like COD: awesome.
If like Apocalypse: the expression 'lipstick on a pig' comes to mind.

Curious to see whether it'll be pre-planned for 5th edition or, like the rules from "Eye of Terror", be rendered void with the release of the new regime.

Looking forward to the valkyrie and plastic stormtroopers if it's true

While I appreciate any attempt by GW to expand their world, and I do like the Valkyrie and Kasrkin models, something about this doesn't sit right with me. There are several armies in the 40K background that are famous for lightning strikes, rapid insertion attacks, and flyers that would seem to be appropriate to this sourcebook- Space Marines, Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Tau for starters. Yet the only rumours we're hearing for it are for the human armies.

The issue is that SM, Eldar, DE, and Tau can already do something, while the IG can't do anything aside from using the Drop Troops Doctrine. Giving the IG a Valkyrie is a major step in making IG more competitive beyond a static gunline.

H.B.M.C one of the rumours is that all the extra stuff in the 4th ed book was going to be taken out, but rules for using Mighty Empires tiles for a campaign would be 5th, along with maybe some special tiles for 40k on a White Dwarf.

I love to get a few tiles with things like 'Hive City' and 'Radar Dome' and 'Space Port' and 'Marine Fortress' etc. for Mighty Empires. It would totally rock.

BYE

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

There will be a plastic SM drop pod that can also be a chaos deathclaw (I think that’s what it’s called).

Oh jeez. I sure hope not. Chaos dreadclaws =/= SM drop pods! Dreadclaws have a completely different deployment mechanism due to their primary function as boarding craft for ship-to-ship space combat. I am not looking forward to the dreadclaw being retconned into a SM drop pod with spikes.

So is this the first SM player complaining on how their codex is being changed? OOOOHHH I can wait until the SM codex gets nerfed like the CSM codex did.

Having seen the beating the Chaos Legions took, I can wait.

Vanilla and Trait Marines are going to take a beating and a half, I imagine.

I just hope the traits survive in some form, and that they at least allow for some non-codex chapter development (i.e., not having everyone be a good 5/10 follower)!

If anything, the fate of the traits will give us a glimpse of the fate of the doctrine system.

(It doesn't look good, does it?)

Alpharius wrote:I just hope the traits survive in some form, and that they at least allow for some non-codex chapter development (i.e., not having everyone be a good 5/10 follower)!

Are you kidding? Everyone follows the Codex Astartes now. Chaos and Orks now need 10 before they can get Heavy Weapons.

I guess in the end everyone decided that Gulliman was a pretty good author and that he might've been onto something when he wrote that tome of tactics, so they decided that they'd all follow it in one form or another.

BYE

I hear you, H.B.M.C., but I can dare to dream, right?

Seriously though, I too doubt that the ability to customize your force to any significant degree is going to survive the transition to 5th edition.

I bet we'll be saying good bye to the Psychic "phase" of 4th and be returning to the bad (i.e., lame, boring, unimaginative, etc.) Psychic power days of 3rd edition too...

Ugh.

Alpharius wrote:I just hope the traits survive in some form, and that they at least allow for some non-codex chapter development (i.e., not having everyone be a good 5/10 follower)!

I think Traits are completely dead and Combat Squads are going to be the order of the day.

If you want to play something other than Codex Astartes, you'll have the option of DA, BA, BT, SW, GK, and CSM...

Though, from the looks of things, I wouldn't be surprised to see Combat Squads grafted onto BT, GK, and SW. BT would have the best chances of fielding min/max-sized units of 5 SM +1 Scout, but then I could see GW making BT Scouts not count.

SM without Combat Squads for Troops? That's Heresy and Chaos!

(Gav, Jervis are you getting this?!?)

JohnHwangDD wrote:Though, from the looks of things, I wouldn't be surprised to see Combat Squads grafted onto BT, GK, and SW. BT would have the best chances of fielding min/max-sized units of 5 SM +1 Scout, but then I could see GW making BT Scouts not count.

It could be worse. Scouts in BT squads could be made into the weird quasi-life as Wargear with model rules like a few other things...

As much as I would like to see the Thunderhawk and Valkyrie, I feel much like Stormtrooper X does. Where is the Gork-damned Battlewagon? I know that there are more ork releases planned for later in 2008, but we can only pray that the Battlewagon is one of them, since there's been no real proof of it yet.

Granted, these are only rumors about the big flying vehicles, but 40K is just so frakking dominated by people playing Imperial forces that it's a wonder there's any war going on in the grim darkness of the far future.

I know Imperial stuff, especially marines, are a huge money-maker for GW. But if that's the only army that GW really wants to support, then I fear they are going to lose a lot of players. You can only play against another marine army and have a power armor bitch-slap fest so many times before you want to play against these horrible xenos forces that are heard about but never seen played...

Planetstrike sounds interesting in that it will break the rather 2 dimensional play style that 40K is in... Wonder how that's going to complicate things...

As an Ork player, I'm surprised you're unhappy. Didn't GW just give you guys a plastic Battlewagon that you can customize and Orkify to your heart's content?

Wasn't that a plastic Trukk?

Heh heh, wasn't the mechanic people wanted to have put in place to prevent all the min maxing to have only allow a weapon every so many men in a unit?

It was hailed in it's simplicity, and yet, it still doesn't make everyone happy.

Toreador wrote:Heh heh, wasn't the mechanic people wanted to have put in place to prevent all the min maxing to have only allow a weapon every so many men in a unit? It was hailed in it's simplicity, and yet, it still doesn't make everyone happy.

It's not the idea, but the execution that people are bitching about.

Other than IG, every other unit that can field a heavy weapon seems to need 10 troopers to do so, hence the feeling that every army goes by the CA, including Xenos and Chaos.

OT:

What can this expansion really bring to the table besides scenarions (if that)?
New flyer rules? How about putting that in the offical fricking rule book?
New Models? Release them with the new rules...

Tunneling, teleporting, grav chuting.... We've already got rules for this, why do we need more? I think I'll be passing on this supplement GW.

Orks got a long overdue truck, not a new battlewagon.

Of course it won't be universally hailed!

Prepare for some major moaning when the Vanilla SM's get nerfed hard (heh!) and then some more moaning when the SM psychic powers get gutted as well.

I still think GW's going about "fixing" their ruleset's problems with a chainsaw where a scalpel would be the better tool.

All this worshiping at the altar of Simplicity is going to make for some bland games pretty soon.

Alpharius is right, a new plastic trukk GW did finally manufacture, but I'm saying the orks are one of the mainstay races, and they don't have a large plastic vehicle to their range yet - at least not since the 80's sometime.
And yet GW happily cranks out more and more large plastic kits for their increasingly one-sided game. I'm hoping that the current designs and options given in the new ork codex are harbingers of what is to come - for every unit entry, an appropriate kit available, with as many options as possible in said kit.

Ork players are forced to kitbash and convert and scrath-build their large vehicles, while hardly necessary new Imperial items, like a Thunderhawk. are being made.

It just bothers me that GW does not look like it is willing to finish what it starts before returning to their already very well-fed Imperial base. Of course they want to cater to their money-makers, but I had hoped that Marine-generated cash would go towards generating things other than more marines.

More the fool me.

Once the TH and Pods are completed, I don't think there's anything left in the SM line that needs plastic.

Maybe then they'll focus on more plastics for other races, but it's even more likely we'll get another abomination like the latest LR kit. Maybe a Vindicator Terminus is next.

Alpharius wrote:All this worshiping at the altar of Simplicity is going to make for some bland games pretty soon.

Pretty soon? I'm running on 3 years here!

Alpharius wrote:Wasn't that a plastic Trukk?

I suppose you could convert the Baneblade into a Trukk. Or two. Or three.

But from what I've seen, the Baneblade chassis just screams Battlewagon to most Ork players...

GrimTeef wrote:Ork players are forced to kitbash and convert and scrath-build their large vehicles,

Ahem. Isn't the point of Ork vehicles that they're kitbash and conversions? If every Ork vehicle looked the same, that would be far more of a travesty.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Wasn't that a plastic Trukk?

I suppose you could convert the Baneblade into a Trukk. Or two. Or three.

But from what I've seen, the Baneblade chassis just screams Battlewagon to most Ork players...

That scream you're hearing is actually from the mouths of Ork players paying $90 (give or take) for one of the "core" heavy support choices for their army!

JohnHwangDD:

Ahem. Isn't the point of Ork vehicles that they're kitbash and conversions? If every Ork vehicle looked the same, that would be far more of a travesty.

Does the same apply to every Ork gun? Maybe boxes of boyz should come without weapons. How about armour? Surely that's kitbashed too? Maybe Orks should come nude. Yeah, that's the ticket, nude boyz and a packet of GS.

Obviously not every piece of Ork kit is salvaged from other races. Orks are not, by and large, a race of inventors, but mostly just enact their genetic programming. If every Mek in the galaxy is hardcoded to be able to build SAGs and Dreads and Kans that look more or less the same, there's no reason why a similar STC (so to speak) shouldn't exist for big, killy tanks.

I totally plan to kitbash some looted wagons and battlewagons. I'd just like to know about how big the things should be. The new trukks are significantly larger than the previous. Is a battlewagon the size of a land raider, or just a chimera? Is a looted wagon the size of a rhino or the old ork trukk? I'm more than happy to field the old trukks with PVC gun barrel for the gun, but I don't want to be ridiculous either.

Toreador wrote:It was hailed in it's simplicity, and yet, it still doesn't make everyone happy.

Mainly because it was done in a (typical for GW) ham-fisted way.

I mean, I don't mind one special weapon choice in a 5-man squad, but it should be a special or heavy weapon. You shouldn't have to be forced to bring a full 10 men before you can get the Heavy Weapon (this only applies doubly for Chaos and tripply (SP??) for Orks).

Even in our Marine Codex, where we have Combat Squads, and indeed there are benefits for taking 10-man squads (free Vet Sergeant for one thing), the access to weapon options isn't restricted, and the weapons have to be equally split between combat squads. It works well. We've tested it endlessly, and, most important of all, it's fun.

BYE

JohnHwangDD wrote:

GrimTeef wrote:Ork players are forced to kitbash and convert and scrath-build their large vehicles,

Ahem. Isn't the point of Ork vehicles that they're kitbash and conversions? If every Ork vehicle looked the same, that would be far more of a travesty.

Believe me, part of me wholeheartedly agrees with you. But the fact is that a lot of players can't be bothered to do that or don't have the skill to convert / kitbash / scratchbuild. Having the large plastic kits helps to even the playing field when it comes to modelling and each race having an equal opportunity to see action on the gameboard, as some people simply won't play an army if they have to go to THAT much trouble. Building and painting and playing take enough time as it is!

Now, like I said, I would not want every ork vehicle to look the same, same as you. My battlewagons are actually giant ork tinboyz with tellyporta arrays to represent their transport capacity, so I'm no stranger to conversions and enjoy them - when I have the time. I don't expect all ork players to have to follow the trial and error road that is scratchbuilding, and frankly neither should GW. Especially for a 'core' race.