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OK, that's fair. Tho really, aside from the ugly little GM vehicles, everything I've seen from an Ork player has been happily & lovingly (& wackily) converted.

Orks just seem to naturally attract such players.

Whether that is out of preference or necessity is hard to say.

JohnHwangDD wrote:OK, that's fair. Tho really, aside from the ugly little GM vehicles, everything I've seen from an Ork player has been happily & lovingly (& wackily) converted.

Orks just seem to naturally attract such players.

Whether that is out of preference or necessity is hard to say.

That's an easy question to answer: it's out of necessity. Either GW didn't provide the model or the model that was available was (is) horribly old and out of scale in comparison to the rest of the army.

Orks, like every other race in the game, should have a model produced by GW for each of their army. Players can and will always have the opportunity to make converted models, but they should never be forced to do so just to play the army. Doing so presents a barrier to new players and convinces them not to play Orks and instead drives them to play an army that is "easy to put together" like Space Marines.

It is a stupid practice that needs to end now. Orks deserve a Battlewagon, Buggies, Flash Gitz, Cyborks, and (non-Warphead) Wierdboy models. They better all be part of the later releases in 2008, but especially the Battlewagon, Buggies and Flash Gitz.

I'm with yakface. Orks should be one of the BIG armies. They've been around since rogue trader, and are a staple of the 40K universe. The complete and utter lack of support GW have shown them in the past decade is a disgrace. It mostly stems from their halfhearted 3rd ed redesign, which ruined the scale and look of many of their models (compare this to marines, chaos marines, IG, or eldar. I consider all these to be the core armies, but by and large 2nd ed models will still fit the scale and "feel" of the army) and therefore pushed the orky fanbase off into other, more well supported armies.

The new models are blooming great IMHO, especially the vehicles, but the Orks really really need those gaps in their army filled. They need them far more than the marines need some fancy non-tournement oversized Thunderhawk anyway.

If they don't come out with a Battlewagon for the second release cycle, there is just no hope!!

I think another thing is that orks have always had so many wacky options that it would make it hard to make all the models and kits for them, so people have tended to go wild and crazy. A lot of other armies just don't have all those options, so the variety of models isn't near the same and thus most options are covered.

GrimTeef wrote:

Ork players are forced to kitbash and convert and scrath-build their large vehicles, while hardly necessary new Imperial items, like a Thunderhawk. are being made.

It just bothers me that GW does not look like it is willing to finish what it starts before returning to their already very well-fed Imperial base. Of course they want to cater to their money-makers, but I had hoped that Marine-generated cash would go towards generating things other than more marines.

More the fool me.

Dude, the Ork codex isn't even out yet everywhere and these are just rumors of a plastic Thunderhawk. Isn't it a bit early to get the knickers in a twist?
Wait, I'm at Dakka, nevermind...

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Yak's saying exactly what I said, though more succinctly and well thought-out.

Tor - yes, you are right there. There WERE so many options for orks that GW making all the models for them would be difficult. This goes back to my point squeezed into an earlier post.

The orks lost several options as well as gained. Skarboyz are gone, as well as cybork units (for the most part, now they are an option with a special character). Burnas were removed from boyz mobz.

I think the reason for these changes is simply the fact that GW was not intended to ever release models for these particular units or options - or they simply could not fit all the parts into the box for that unit.

I think the latter is why the burna option was removed from the boyz mobz. Not because it was overpowered - because it wasn't - but just because the burna boy model needs so many extra parts they couldn't squeeze them all into the boyz mob frames.

GW was not going to make skarboyz or cyborks, so their entries were largely or entirely removed.

This theory does give hope to the thought that GW will in fact release a plastic battlewagon and looted wagon (though few seem to really care about the looted wagon). Because the entry exists, and seeing how the other units have been handled (like lootas and burna boyz), then it almost stands to reason that a battlewagon will finally see the light of day...

... it's just rediculous that we hear more rumors about increasing numbers of Imperial vehicles when we have no core tank for the orks, not even solid rumor of its creation or arrival.

Ozymandias wrote:
Dude, the Ork codex isn't even out yet everywhere and these are just rumors of a plastic Thunderhawk. Isn't it a bit early to get the knickers in a twist?
Wait, I'm at Dakka, nevermind...

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Heh, point taken. I am just bugged that we get more rumors about more (largely unimportant in game terms up to now) Imperial items, when no one can really point to rumors of when a core army gets a kit for a staple entry.

I try not to rant about much - it is just a game, after all - but seeing a mental picture of some GW exec saying "hey, let's make the Thunderhawk next! Wouldn't that be great fellas?!" while the ork players sit waiting for their main vehicle to be designed or finished...

I would hope that GW would have their priorities straight as far as army model design and options go, but then they do, in a way, since they are catering to their largest audience with the Thunderhawk.

GrimTeef wrote:
I try not to rant about much - it is just a game, after all - but seeing a mental picture of some GW exec saying "hey, let's make the Thunderhawk next! Wouldn't that be great fellas?!" while the ork players sit waiting for their main vehicle to be designed or finished...

Wait, have you already forgotten how long it's taken for decent, new core Ork releases to come out in the first place? I guarantee you that's exactly what's been happening for the past 10 years .

You shouldn't have to be forced to bring a full 10 men before you can get the Heavy Weapon (this only applies doubly for Chaos and tripply (SP??) for Orks).

It's really a sanity issue. When Rookits are just BETTER than Shootas, why wouldn't all Orks carry Rokkits? Why is 1 in 10 too few, but 3 per squad just right? It's all just game balance, and GW hasn't really come up with a good way to balance out the fact that heavy and special weapons tend to be way more valuable than the points they cost.

I think the best answer I've seen is in AT-43. That system tends to let you buy a smaller squad with one heavy weapon, or a bigger squad with three. Or something like that. Basically the idea here is that the best heavy weapon density comes with a full sized squad.

The reason I think this would work nicely with 40K, is because small, maxed out squads don't just have lots of shooting for their points, they also break your points into smaller chunks that can split their fire. It's a double advantage, so it's a no brainer to load up on those 6-man las/plas squads.

On the other hand, if you force the player to take a large squad to get the best heavy weapon density, then you create a tradeoff, and tradeoffs make list building more thoughtful.

I think 1 heavy weapon per "X" models is fine especially once the codex cycle finishes and all armies are limited in such a way.

For years people have been saying "If GW doesn't want the player to min/max their squads why don't they write the codex that way?" And then when they finally start to do just that people complain about it.

Frankly, they're damned if they do, damned if they don't.



@Grimteef: I personally don't think there will be/should a Looted wagon model. In my mind that is the catch-all entry for pretty much any vehicle "looted" from an opposing race that you want to field in the Ork army (besides some of the bigger vehicles which fit more of as a Battlewagon).

As such I don't really think it would be appropriate to release a model for that paritcular unit, IMHO, although a plastic kit with Orky bits to help people convert vehicles would sure be nice!

Orks are sort of a good example of a unit that doesn't need the one special per 10 to be counterbalanced. Even if they were 1 special/heavy per 5, you wouldn't see people fielding 6 units of 5 orks due to morale issues.
Now, obviously this doesn't work for other armies etc., and I didn't give this more than a few seconds thought. But there might be something to be said for balancing armies in their own unique ways to avoid min/max problems other than the "Codex Astartes One for Ten" method. Just saying.

back on topic: I wouldn't mind seeing a plastic thunderhawk as next superheavy. like the baneblade you can basically use it for with 4 factions. altough, then we still have eldar, tau, necrons and 'nids who didn't get a plastic superheavy....something like an eldar fighter just wouldn't make enough money, unless there would be some evil gothic-eldar sonversion possibilities.

it would be cool, if they managed to make a plastic valkyre and something for a xenos faction, but I doubt it.

I think Planetstrike will be an interesting addition to the rules. Instead of models just deep striking, I imagine we will see many counter measures for various specific deep striking methods. Teleport jammers, anti-aircraft fire, etc; instead of models just appearing.

I think a thunderhawk would be cool to see, but it'd be so much more expensive than the baneblade with the sheer number of sprues required.

People have mentioned alot how armies are going to be neglected if they don't get a super heavy or something else in Planetstrike. I think in planet strike most other armies are gonna have alot more going for them. IG will need Valkyries and SM and CSM need Thunderhawks or drop pods to take advantage of planet strike, but I think Eldar, Tau, Necron, and Dark Eldar will all have the benefit of their normal vehicles being able to take upgrades to gain deep strike and flyer abilities.

Ozymandias wrote:

Dude, the Ork codex isn't even out yet everywhere and these are just rumors of a plastic Thunderhawk. Isn't it a bit early to get the knickers in a twist?
Wait, I'm at Dakka, nevermind...

Ozymandias, King of Kings

d00d it's a news and rumors discussion board, why get your knickers in a twist about people discussing news and rumors?

Anyway, facts are the Space Marinez outsell, what everything by 2 to 1? I'd expect a plastic thunderhawk pretty soon, I'm surprised it came out before the Baneblade.

Why do you even think that they are basing the ork heavy weapon the same as marines? Couldn't it be just as simple that they now have a 10 man box with 1 heavy weapon in it, thus 1 per 10? Maybe they don't want you loading up large units with large amounts of heavy weapons, and leave that to the specialists units that carry a large amount of those weapons, so thus it is one in ten? Why is it assumed they are just following along with what they did with the DA dex?

They could have picked any arbitrary number and there would be complaints.

Anung Un Rama wrote:...something like an eldar fighter just wouldn't make enough money, unless there would be some evil gothic-eldar conversion possibilities... it would be cool, if they managed to make a plastic valkyre and something for a xenos faction, but I doubt it...

I think that they should offset the cost in low selling armys models production against the mass selling armys such as the SMs... and average the prices (and losses) over the range.

Just because the eldar might lose money they also just by existing form apart of what makes the imperial armys so cool (esp for the kids!!!) and make money...

In the end if planet strike is the only way of playing a thunderhawk, much as apoc is the only way to field a baneblade.
With out good options for the other armys, eldar tau ect won't have reason to accept invites to planetstrike games.
And space marines will have little to play against... except another ultramarine vs bloodangels mismatch fudge thingy...

And yes I play Eldar (but also Nurgle, I'll have three drop-pods/dreadclaws please! and sometimes Guard).


Panic.

Wehrkind wrote:Orks are sort of a good example of a unit that doesn't need the one special per 10 to be counterbalanced. Even if they were 1 special/heavy per 5, you wouldn't see people fielding 6 units of 5 orks due to morale issues.
Now, obviously this doesn't work for other armies etc., and I didn't give this more than a few seconds thought. But there might be something to be said for balancing armies in their own unique ways to avoid min/max problems other than the "Codex Astartes One for Ten" method. Just saying.

But people would complain about 5, much like they complain about 10. Ultimately the problem comes from the optimum number of rockets being about 1 per 2 or 1 per 3 orks, depending on how many meatshields you needed to protect your rockets. Ork rockets, like heavy and special weapons for just about every troops choice in every list, are massively underpriced. The artificial limits on special and heavy weapons are the only thing stopping people from making all their troops choices into blocks of heavy weapons, and subsequently turning the game into stand and deliver tedium.

Forcing troops choices to move around the field is a good thing, even if its done with ugly rules like 1/10 orks and combat squads.

It'd probably be best if GW built a more sophisticated system where troops were chosen because the system had developed beyond bigger guns = better, and mobile, adaptable forward units were an important part of a functioning army... but asking for that would make me crazier than the people calling for a simultaneous turn sequence.

Well, yea, my point is that GW should have a more elegant and sophisticated rule system.

Perhaps a quicker answer would be to jack up the prices on heavy weapons across the board.

Panic wrote:I think that they should offset the cost in low selling armys models production against the mass selling armys such as the SMs... and average the prices (and losses) over the range.

They do this already. That is why SM Tacticals are $35/box and DE Warriors are also $35/box. If each miniatures line were standalone, SM Tacticals would be less than $10/box and DE Warriors would be at least $100/box.

Wehrkind wrote:Perhaps a quicker answer would be to jack up the prices on heavy weapons across the board.

I wouldn't be opposed to that, along with reduced access. At least, charge the same price whether a Troops / Elite / Heavy buys the weapon, and don't allow HQ / Fast to have access. Then the advantage for Troops is that they have access at all.

Of course, this is what GW is doing in the newer books, right?

I suppose that new flyer rules for grav abks would also be a good idea. but on the other hand, wouldn't that make the falcon even more overpowered?

I'm guessing from the name planetfall, that the main purpose of the expansion will be to set up senarios whereby one player defends a position from a offplanet attack force...

this will create the need for every force to be given a creditable form of deep striking en mass... drop pods, warp gates, web way portals, bio pods etc...
I dunno what necrons will do? phase in?

Panic wrote:And space marines will have little to play against... except another ultramarine vs bloodangels mismatch fudge thingy...

This is a very good point- to only focus on models for the factions that sell the best is a bit short-sighted because those factions need dirty, dirty xenos to burn and purge. Even if the xenos don't sell the best, they are part of the reason the game is fun for the factions that do sell well.

I'm interested to see what this expansion will bring to the game and I'm always excited about new models. I do, however, have to admit that constant Imperial releases does make the rest of the armies feel second rate. The Baneblade wasn't too bad because all Imperial armies can use it and they released rules for an Ork and Chaos version. Unfortunately the Thunderhawk isn't as versatile. The drop pods are a good idea because they can be used in regular games of 40k and can be used by Chaos as well.

As far as the "theme" behind the expansion I think it will be interesting to see the types of missions it offers. Also, it will be interesting to see what support each army gets... except Necrons who quite possibly will take it to the face again much as they did with Apocolypse.

I've been thinking about it more... I can't wait to get those chaos drop pods raining down...
i'll be able to put my dreads inside right? (and when it goes a little do-lally starts to shoot the place up i'll actually smile!)

I have this urge in me to start a necron army but the neglect they suffer puts me off... i started some german predtorians instead...
I mean GW would sell loads of necron if they just offered one good addition... I mean if they made a necron flier/heavy/tank/whatever out of the blue I think most of us would be tempted to dabble...

Turtle wrote:
*mention of squats*

*nobody plays squats LOL*

*goes off to a corner to cry his eyes out*

Gief Space d00rfs now plixz!!!!111one

On a more serious note, "Planetfall" seems like it could be a good thing, if there
rules are at least half-decent.

As for GW supporting Imperials; I'm an imperialist myself, having only played
Imperial Guard and SoBs. Even though my IGs will be using daemonhosts and
other naughty bits in the future, I'll still stick with calling myself Imperialist. I guess
GW sees the smart thing about making models that a lot of players can use (SMs,
Valkyries for all the different IGs, not to mention DH and WH). But for some reason
they don't seem to get the other part of the argument: you can only enjoy fighting
power-armoured genetic freaks for so long! If I remember correctly, my local GW
actually decided to move all their Dark Eldar to a back storage room to make room
for the new SM/Apocalypse boxes. Not that there are any Dark eldarians that I know
of in this region, but that doesn't make it better... *sigh*

"Give me a lasgun in my hand, and a Xenos in my sight, and for the Emperor I shall fight!"

al-Majid Agandhjin bin Ahfal al-Rashid

JOHIRA wrote:

Panic wrote:And space marines will have little to play against... except another ultramarine vs bloodangels mismatch fudge thingy...

This is a very good point- to only focus on models for the factions that sell the best is a bit short-sighted because those factions need dirty, dirty xenos to burn and purge. Even if the xenos don't sell the best, they are part of the reason the game is fun for the factions that do sell well.

It's nice to know I play one of these races only for the amusement of spaz mariners. Wouldn't want them getting all bored if they only played each other.

Stormtrooperx wrote: The drop pods are a good idea because they can be used in regular games of 40k and can be used by Chaos as well.
@ Stormtrooper x Chaos can drop do you mean the rules in IA ? i didn't see it in the new dex.

stonefox wrote:

JOHIRA wrote:

Panic wrote:And space marines will have little to play against... except another ultramarine vs bloodangels mismatch fudge thingy...

This is a very good point- to only focus on models for the factions that sell the best is a bit short-sighted because those factions need dirty, dirty xenos to burn and purge. Even if the xenos don't sell the best, they are part of the reason the game is fun for the factions that do sell well.

It's nice to know I play one of these races only for the amusement of spaz mariners. Wouldn't want them getting all bored if they only played each other.

Stonefox, you of all people should have realised that Spase Marienz never get bored playing with each other.

Back on topic, CoD was good, Apocalypse was meh (IMHO though I know loads of people love it.) There is no precedent that Planetstrike will be any good. It depends on the quality of the writer.

On a positive note, Planetside provides an opportunity to put out one or two new plastic models for each army so that everyone gets a bit of loving and the whole market is stimulated. For example, Tau could get an anti-aircraft turret for the Hammerhead chassis and an Orca or Tetra kit. But nothing will happen because GW do not have the capability to do it, so the Impies will get the new stuff as usual.

If GW were any good at making kits their basic infantry boxes would be tons better with separate arms, weapons and a sprue of special weapons for customising. However with the new 1/10 heavy weapon rule that is pointless. A proper case of design following function.

Whilst it is true that GW have made progress in kit design, they have merely got themselves up from the stone age to the copper age compared with Tamiya et al. GW's modern kits are below the level of the old Frog kits from the early 1960s in terms of build quality.

That's about enough for one post. I don't want to wear out my keyboard.

skullspliter888 wrote: Stormtrooperx wrote: The drop pods are a good idea because they can be used in regular games of 40k and can be used by Chaos as well.
@ Stormtrooper x Chaos can drop do you mean the rules in IA ? i didn't see it in the new dex.

I don't believe there are rules for drop pods in the new Chaos codex, but FW does have the Dreadclaw model. I'm assuming that with the release of Planetfall there will be rules in it for drop podding Chaos.

sweet time to paint that hell talon and start to build drop claws